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TM7

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« on: March 20, 2006, 09:50:19 AM »
As tax season approaches one should be aware of a 'hidden' tax that unfairly affects the middle class and lower class, yet is benificial to the wealthy. The Fed, Congress, and Neocon Administration endorse and promote this 'tax'. Tax reductions without spending cuts are bogus economics........fyi........TM7
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Government Spending –
A Tax on the Middle Class

by Rep. Ron Paul, MD
by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

         

All government spending represents a tax. The inflation tax, while largely ignored, hurts middle-class and low-income Americans the most.

The never-ending political squabble in Congress over taxing the rich, helping the poor, “Pay-Go,” deficits, and special interests, ignores the most insidious of all taxes – the inflation tax. Simply put, printing money to pay for federal spending dilutes the value of the dollar, which causes higher prices for goods and services. Inflation may be an indirect tax, but it is very real – the individuals who suffer most from cost of living increases certainly pay a “tax.”

Unfortunately no one in Washington, especially those who defend the poor and the middle class, cares about this subject. Instead, all we hear is that tax cuts for the rich are the source of every economic ill in the country. Anyone truly concerned about the middle class suffering from falling real wages, under-employment, a rising cost of living, and a decreasing standard of living should pay a lot more attention to monetary policy. Federal spending, deficits, and Federal Reserve mischief hurt the poor while transferring wealth to the already rich. This is the real problem, and raising taxes on those who produce wealth will only make conditions worse.

This neglect of monetary policy may be out of ignorance, but it may well be deliberate. Fully recognizing the harm caused by printing money to cover budget deficits might create public pressure to restrain spending – something the two parties don’t want.

Expanding entitlements is now an accepted prerogative of both parties. Foreign wars and nation building are accepted as foreign policy by both parties.

The Left hardly deserves credit when complaining about Republican deficits. Likewise, we’ve been told by the Vice President that Ronald Reagan “proved deficits don’t matter” – a tenet of supply-side economics. With this the prevailing wisdom in Washington, no one should be surprised that spending and deficits are skyrocketing. The vocal concerns expressed about huge deficits coming from big spenders on both sides are nothing more than political grandstanding. If Members feel so strongly about spending, Congress simply could do what it ought to do – cut spending. That, however, is never seriously considered by either side.

If those who say they want to increase taxes to reduce the deficit got their way, who would benefit? No one! There’s no historic evidence to show that taxing productive Americans to support both the rich and poor welfare beneficiaries helps the middle class, produces jobs, or stimulates the economy.

Borrowing money to cut the deficit is only marginally better than raising taxes. It may delay the pain for a while, but the cost of government eventually must be paid. Federal borrowing means the cost of interest is added, shifting the burden to a different group than those who benefited and possibly even to another generation. Eventually borrowing is always paid for through taxation.

All spending ultimately must be a tax, even when direct taxes and direct borrowing are avoided. The third option is for the Federal Reserve to create credit to pay the bills Congress runs up. Nobody objects, and most Members hope that deficits don’t really matter if the Fed accommodates Congress by creating more money. Besides, interest payments to the Fed are lower than they would be if funds were borrowed from the public, and payments can be delayed indefinitely merely by creating more credit out of thin air to buy U.S. treasuries. No need to soak the rich. A good deal, it seems, for everyone. But is it?

Paying for government spending with Federal Reserve credit, instead of taxing or borrowing from the public, is anything but a good deal for everyone. In fact it is the most sinister seductive “tax” of them all. Initially it is unfair to some, but dangerous to everyone in the end. It is especially harmful to the middle class, including lower-income working people who are thought not to be paying taxes.

The “tax” is paid when prices rise as the result of a depreciating dollar. Savers and those living on fixed or low incomes are hardest hit as the cost of living rises. Low and middle incomes families suffer the most as they struggle to make ends meet while wealth is literally transferred from the middle class to the wealthy. Government officials stick to their claim that no significant inflation exists, even as certain necessary costs are skyrocketing and incomes are stagnating. The transfer of wealth comes as savers and fixed income families lose purchasing power, large banks benefit, and corporations receive plush contracts from the government – as is the case with military contractors. These companies use the newly printed money before it circulates, while the middle class is forced to accept it at face value later on. This becomes a huge hidden tax on the middle class, many of whom never object to government spending in hopes that the political promises will be fulfilled and they will receive some of the goodies. But surprise – it doesn’t happen. The result instead is higher prices for prescription drugs, energy, and other necessities. The freebies never come.

The Fed is solely responsible for inflation by creating money out of thin air. It does so either to monetize federal debt, or in the process of economic planning through interest rate manipulation. This Fed intervention in our economy, though rarely even acknowledged by Congress, is more destructive than Members can imagine.

Not only is the Fed directly responsible for inflation and economic downturns, it causes artificially low interest rates that serve the interests of big borrowers, speculators, and banks. This unfairly steals income from frugal retirees who chose to save and place their funds in interest bearing instruments like CDs.

The Fed’s great power over the money supply, interest rates, the business cycle, unemployment, and inflation is wielded with essentially no Congressional oversight or understanding. The process of inflating our currency to pay for government debt indeed imposes a tax without legislative authority.

This is no small matter. In just the first 24 weeks of this year the M3 money supply increased 428 billion dollars, and 700 billion dollars in the past year. M3 currently is rising at a rate of 10.5%. In the last seven years the money supply has increased 80%, as M3 has soared 4.1 trillion dollars. This bizarre system of paper money worldwide has allowed serious international imbalances to develop. We owe just four Asian countries 1.5 trillion dollars as a consequence of a chronic and staggering current account deficit now exceeding 5% of our GDP. This current account deficit means Americans must borrow 1.6 billion dollars per day from overseas just to finance this deficit. This imbalance, which until now has permitted us to live beyond our means, eventually will give us higher consumer prices, a lower standard of living, higher interest rates, and renewed inflation.

Rest assured the middle class will suffer disproportionately from this process.

The moral of the story is that spending is always a tax. The inflation tax, though hidden, only makes things worse. Taxing, borrowing, and inflating to satisfy wealth transfers from the middle class to the rich in an effort to pay for profligate government spending, can never make a nation wealthier. But it certainly can make it poorer

Offline magooch

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2006, 04:19:20 AM »
Entitlements are what accounts for most of the federal budget, so if any meaningful cuts are going to be made, that's where it has to happen.  Which entitlements are you willing to cut?

Raise taxes on the so-called wealthy--forget it.  Whether you want to believe it, or not, the wealthy already pay far more than their share.

The other really big consumer of our federal budget is defense.  Cut defense spending--not.  The defense of this country is job number one of the federal government.

There are no easy answers and for sure, there are no answers that are politically doable.  Two useful first steps would be to stop immigration (and send the illegals packing) and discourage people from irresponsibly making kids that they and the rest of us can not afford.
Swingem

Offline victorcharlie

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2006, 07:02:30 AM »
Only the people who think they're rich pay more than their fair share, the super wealthy hide their assets and avoid the tax.

There is no such thing as a fair tax, and the income tax is the most unfair other than maybe the inheritance tax or the capital gains tax.  

Tax revenue drives the government.  The more money the government collects the more they want to interject government into our lives, thus less liberty for us.   With more money comes more control.  We all want good schools, good roads and such but the more money we allow to flow into the government then the less control over the government  we have.

Everything comes with a price.  The more money put into the government, the more powerful it becomes and the result is less liberty and control over your own life.  The result of which is the federal government holding the carrat  in the form of money given back to the local government.  If the local government wants the money they must comply with federal mandates to get it.  It's a self defeating purpose.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline dukkillr

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2006, 07:26:13 AM »
Quote
the super wealthy hide their assets and avoid the tax.


God that drives me crazy... I can't count the number of times i've heard it...

The wealthy, the super wealthy, the obscenely wealthy, they all pay taxes... That stupid claim that they don't is uninformed...

Wait, I'll issue a challenge... As an attorney who has dealt in taxes and estate planning I'll ask this:  You tell me how I can shield the richest from paying taxes.  Be specific... My tax code is here by my desk.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2006, 08:33:00 AM »
Most of the things you listed are simply tax deductions or credits... those apply to everyone and have no special benefit to the rich... my guess is that incorporation and charitible expenditures and property ownership (?) would benefit average tax payers far more... and none of these are actually going to avoid taxes completely...

I was hoping for a more specific example... Tax free bonds?  Roth 401k?  

Further some of the things you listed are illegal... Under reporting (probably the most common among low income workers who make cash) and company supported benefits (yeah, there's a cash cow) are both things that get you sent to jail.

Political contributions?  Please elaborate on how this saves taxes for the super rich.  Family salary?  Still have to pay taxes there.

Lobbying for and getting favorable tax codes and schedules for nonprogressive taxes - uh yeah... that's something I can list on this years forms...

Tax credit investments - elaborate... most credits are done because of public policy reasons, like education, and most have caps.

Loss reporting - well if you lose money, uh, you don't pay taxes... but remember that losses can't usually travel to other forms of income.  For instance if you lose 100k in the stock market you can't use that loss to offset your yearly salary.

I've seen nothing that wows me.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2006, 10:37:25 AM »
Off shore income sources require off shore investments.  People with more money can save more money because they pay higher taxes... Look at it like this:  If you make 10k a year and give 1k (10%) a year to charity you don't recieve much benefit.  You weren't going to pay any taxes anyway.  If you make 1 mil a year, and give 100k (10%) you do recieve a benefit because you will gain a deduction (or credit depending on exactly what the donation or program is).  You will still end up paying more in taxes (both as percentage income and in gross value) than the guy who makes 10k, but you'll be "taking advantage of the tax code".  

Let's rephrase this somewhat:  Raise your hand if you take advantage of any possible tax benefit.  I'm sure roughly everyone has their hand up.  Ok, now keep your hand up if you're in the top .1% of income earners.  Right, see, everyone's hand went down.  The point is that everyone does their best to pay less taxes, my tax code is 2027 pages (which doesn't include any state laws) and it's full of ways to deduct, expense, or otherwise alter a person's tax benefit.  Each one of those things has a reason behind it.  The myth that you can use those things to avoid paying taxes if you're super rich is simply false.  

I figured you retry your revocable trust argument.  Income in those trusts is taxed as income to the grantor.  Section 677(b).  I'm not sure why you love this idea.  

Rich people have bigger numbers... As such deductions and credits are also bigger numbers... but percentages are the way taxes are paid... and believe me, they still pay a high percent.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2006, 10:38:02 AM »
dukkillr shoots a BPS, for goodness sakes. How can anyone who shoots a pump be taken seriously?  :eek:

(just for the record, my turkey/deer shotgun is a BPS and my small game guns are Winchester Model 12's, so don't take this comment to heart..)  :D  :)  :)  :-D

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 10:39:48 AM »
Thanks daks...  (My favorite gun is Winchester Model 12) I simply believe of the current production guns the BPS is clearly the best.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2006, 10:41:55 AM »
No argument there, big guy. I think you are right on the money.

Sorry to take the thread off topic. Just trying to lighten up the mood a bit.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2006, 11:17:57 AM »
I sure can't afford a tax attorney to look after my assests.......complicated tax code works to the advantage of those who can afford to pay the attorneys.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Brett

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2006, 11:55:51 AM »
Heck, I would not mind paying over a million dollars a year in taxes.  "Huh?!" you say.  Think about it, how much money would you have to be worth or be making in order to pay a million dollars in taxes a year?  The rich are paying their share of taxes believe me.  It's just that when you are in the top 1% of the income bracket the taxes do not effect your style of living as much.
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Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2006, 12:13:46 PM »
Some of what you say is overly simplistic, some is wrong.  Are there tax consequences to working in another country?  Sure.  Are there tax consequences to being a dual citizen?  Sure.  But those people still pay taxes... In your german example those people avoid some of the german's 60% bracket by paying out 35% rate.  Of course for this to work you need to actually have a good faith claim that you can attribute different income to different countries.  Remember that doing things for the purpose of evading taxes is illegal, and the government has very good attorneys working to assure everyone pays their fair share.  

Check section 269(a) if you have any doubts about the governments goals.  Seriously, read 269(a) before posting again.  It's just an example of course, but indicative of how the IRS has been closing loop holes.

I'll say it again.  When income is realized from ANY trust, taxes are paid by the benefactor or grantor.  Cite your code provisions where you believe this isn't true.

Political contributions - now I know you're on shaky ground.  Of course those donations can be spent again ON ANOTHER CAMPAIGN.  Not exactly a windfall.  Those donations cannot simply be pocketed.  If you think they can do a google for Adam Taft and read why Kansas's best hope for a republican governor recently plead guilty to avoid jail.  All he did was transfer old campaign donations to a personal account briefly before returning the whole amount.  

Corporate benefits are generally included in income.  

Keep the ideas coming.

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2006, 04:21:26 PM »
your answers are growing increasingly vague... i think i know why...

I don't know about germany's taxes, and don't care... i had a discussion several years ago while on a train in germany with an american who was working there... that's my entire knowledge of german tax structure.

Your answers are slowly joining up with reality.  Trusts can have benefits for estate planning.  Rest assured you still pay taxes though.  

Corporate benefits are considered income, at FMV.  

Remember that if the IRS determines that anything you have done is being done to avoid taxes they will nullify your benefit.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2006, 01:31:25 AM »
Quote from: dukkillr

Remember that if the IRS determines that anything you have done is being done to avoid taxes they will nullify your benefit.


What sir is my benefit?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline magooch

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« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2006, 04:39:09 AM »
Hey Dukkillr, why waste the time arguing with folks who don't know the difference between theory and facts?  I've issued the challenge before for anyone to show a part of the tax code that is written exclusively for the rich.  No takers.

Actually there is a part of the code that is exclusive to the wealthier tax payers.  That is the 35% rate on taxable income.  But even this can be utilized by less wealthy people if they choose to.

Inflation is a drag on everyone, not just the poor and middle classes.  Will the rich weather the storm better than the middle class and the poor--well sure they will--what's new?

The ravages of the federal budget deficit and the trade deficit will be realized soon enough.  I guess if there were a simple solution, it would already have been tried.
Swingem

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2006, 06:12:28 AM »
Maybe it's the tax code itself that deserves critisism.  Why does the code need to be so complex as to require a tax accountant and attorney to decipher it in the first place?   This gives the tax system the appearance of giving the advantage to those who can afford to employ such people thus getting every deduction available under the code while the little guy pays more than he should as he misses the "loop holes".  

I won't argue the legality of an income tax as our elected state representatives sold us out when passing the ammendment and obviously had a different idea about what Madison was trying to prevent when he sold the colonies the idea of a federal government.  I do find it interesting that the supreme court found an income tax illegal in 1863 but for what ever reason it isn't illegal today.

I won't even argue that a graduated system is fair as it doesn't seem fair to me to penalize sucess or to expect anyone to pay a higher or lower rate than another citizen.

A sales tax would be the fairest tax as it would tax every one the same, is a consumption based tax and doesn't penalize saving.

Read the communist manifesto.  Why does Marx say an income tax is necessary for socialism?

Can you say One world Socialist Government?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline dukkillr

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« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2006, 06:23:03 AM »
If you want to dump the tax code you'll get no argument from me.  I like a flat tax, seems the most fair to me.  Of course fair is based on ones relative sensabilities, and some will never think taxes are "fair" until we live in socialist society where the rich pay for the existence of the poor.

Offline magooch

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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2006, 02:38:04 AM »
TM7--The hell you say.  Does anyone know what he just said?
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Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2006, 03:11:03 AM »
He said that soon there will be a one world government (NWO= New world order) who's goal will be to farther corporate greed, and that the tax code will never be changed because of corporates hold over the government and the fact that it works to corporates advantage!

Mammon is a biblical reference and  Mammon was commonly personified as the demon of avarice, richness and injustice.  Another interpertation is translated as 'dishonest wealth' or equivalent.  Mammon is said to be the son of Satin. i.e. the beast.

Hegmony: preponderant influence or authority over others, domination.

corporatocracy isn't in my dictionary but I interpret it to mean the aristocratic nature in the higharchy of a corporation.  Those of wealth and power.

Clear as mud right?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Awf Hand

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2006, 10:59:18 AM »
Here's an easy question for those who've been following this thread:

What is greed? :?
Just my Awf Hand comments...

Offline rifleman61

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deja' vu
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2006, 03:53:55 PM »
It seems to me that I have seen this ?argument? before
Dukkillr, you are the only one making sense
TM7, you are right you do live in a parallel universe
The wealthy do indeed have tax shelters and do indeed have access to tax advantages that the rest of "us" do not have, and that is the way it should be.  The "rich" do all of the hiring, take most of the risks in the entrepreneurial market place of venture capitol and pay all of the wages.  Why should they not benefit from the economies of scale that are available to them?  I detect in your arguments, TM7, envy and greed masquerading for social conscience; such is generally the case in this country when talking about taxes.  We suffer from a surfeit of class hatred and envy when talking about fiscal and tax policy in this country; it seems that is what most people have been brought up on as passing for reasonable and logical debate.
The most socially responsible thing that the rich can do is to spend their money; when the rich stop spending and investing the rest of "Us" suffer.  I am a cabinetmaker by trade; I recently [a year ago] helped to collaborate and build a kitchen for one of our institutional accounts for his house.  He absolutely had to have a million [that's right a "1" with six zeroes after it] dollar kitchen in his mansion.  I will never live in a mansion let alone have a million dollar kitchen but that kitchen got me a healthy year's end bonus, and helped to keep my men working.  So God bless the rich, let'em spend their money.  Hey, anybody out there who's rich that needs a fifty thousand dollar pair of shoes?
Business has absolutely no social responsibility beyond operating at a profit.  The sole purpose of a business is to provide goods and services at a profit; it is not to pay taxes, it is not to pay wages, benefits, 401K plans, medical and health insurances, or Social Security; without profits all of that is just so much daydreaming.
The point to any talk about taxes is that they absolutely should not be paid in the form of incomes taxes; fully one hundred percent of all of the constitutionally mandated functions of government can be funded solely by the specific powers granted to Congress in the first article of the formal constitution.  No where in the text of that article is there any mention of incomes taxes.   What that means to the respondents in this chat room is that we "all" are going to radically have to alter our expectations of just what we expect from our government.  For some in this country [the sick, lame, lazy and leeches] it means that they just might have to go out and get a job, oh what a surprise there.  For the rest of "us" it means that we should stop counting on a tax event[ income tax refunds] to assure us of economic well being.
Any talk of tax schemes is stupid, asinine and pointless, anyone proposing any tax scheme whether regressive, flat or progressive misses the point entirely.   All are equally workable if applied consistently and fairly; and, they all cannot be applied consistently which lets out "fairly", because the money is ours and not the government's.  And in the end none will work anyway as long as you do not repeal the "XVIth" Amendment; the "XVIth" is the amendment that allows the Federal government to "legally" rob everyone in this country.
If you really want to promote an economic boom in this country reduce Congress to, ":... collecting  taxes, excises, imposts and duties..."restrict it to only those duties specified in Art 1:8 of the formal Constitution, have the Senate appointed by the state legislatures as Madison and the Framers originally intended, and repeal the "XVIth" amendment.  Our country will be awash with money; I can guarantee you.  Until then any talk of "taxes" is just so much silliness and unrealistic at best.
Any body wanna' debate?
"Game On"


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Offline rifleman61

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Taxes!!!
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2006, 11:28:46 AM »
The fundamental fallacy of an "incomes tax" is that it fosters the notion that there is no such thing as private property.  Since private property has been made a fiction then, it follows that all property is public and therefore belonging to the government. No tax scheme will work in a market place of entrepreneurial free market capitolism, no matter how well intended, no matter how fairly constructed, because it is a gross violation of separations of power by the general government; it is an intrusion of the general government into the market place, where it generally does not belong.  The problem is not the supply of money call it whatever you want; it really doesn't matter.  The problem is "government  discretionary spending".  It is natural that those with the money and  the cachet' to power will have the most to gain when ever government is involved in the market place with an incomes tax; it is natural and expected that they should.  Taxes raise the structural costs of government, most especially those costs associated with tax collection and those with the influence will minimize that cost, for they are seeing to their interests and rightly so.  If you want to minimize this then get government out of the market place and let money, power and market place decisions take place in their proper arena.  This will have the salutary effect [that means "good" to you TM 7] of bringing the money supply down to reasonable levels, therefore its realistic value.  the insidious evil of any tax cut, even with its immediate positive effects on the economy, is that they reenforce the notion that the money belongs to the government.  As good as the Bush tax cut is, it is still nevertheless structurally flawed, in that it has removed wage earners from the tax roles making $27500 or less per annum.  This has had the net effect of narrowing the available flow of revenue to not only the tax payer but to the government and making it more suseptible to the vagueries of party politics as well as the transient volatility of the market pklace.  "All" incomes taxes have as their fundamental assumption that to be "workable" they must be imposed on the majority of "all" wage earners.  The success of such is directly proportional to the tax paying universe, whenever that majority is narrowed such that it is no longer a majority of wage earners then the balance of what is left are "tax consumers" and a burden on the system.  Any system so constructed will collapse of its own weight.
  Socialism is a cowards way of saying "Communism"; before I see that happen I will burn the whole darned house down and God help the man who comes to my door and tells me that I make too much money, and any fools that are there with him. I did not spend 36 years in the Navy/MarineCorps combat team to turn my property over to someone who thinks that I make too much money.
All incomes taxes are abusive to all capitol in enterprise because gotten wealth has been confiscated and in particular are an unfair tax on business owners
--are costly to government and unreasonably increase the structural costs of government
--unfairly bias citizens against government by creating an unreasonable sense of security and entitlement
--are the greatest single  historic threat to capitolism if allowed to continue unchecked
--will end for all practical purposes the process of Republican democracy because they are an unalloyed threat to it
-- and will in the end be a cause by which government precipitates civil unrest if not civil war.
When the taxpaying universe iof American wage earners drops below 50% any further talk of tax reform will be unrealistic; at that point there will be no meaningful tax reform for the majority[being tax consumers] will see it not in their interests to reform the system.
If and until the "XVIth" is repealed all talk of tax and tax reform is moot and unrealistically speculative

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
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Offline nomosendero

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New Tax hits the Middle Class
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2006, 05:02:31 PM »
rifleman61
Yes indeed, when just over 50% don't pay taxes, forget it. That majority
will want to keep things the way they are, no matter how much the 40
something are taxed. We know who the majority will vote for, too obvious to argue. This will continue & Socialism or the dreaded C word will be the
rule of the day. It is not that the other party is not going that way too, but
the party of Clintons, Kerry & the most prominent of Socialists will get us there at warp speed along with gun control & ALL loss of freedom.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline rifleman61

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noneexpected
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2006, 05:24:33 PM »
I do not find 36 years in the service as sanctimonious; as a matter of fact I find that anybody who has not served is just a passenger.  I'll also account as how most people couldn't cut it in the Navy/Marine Corps that it's just plain not their fault that they're just second best.
It is not the least bit sanctimonious  nor hypocritical to have served, drawn a paycheck and now a retirement retainer, courtesy of the American people themselves for the purposes convened, the Congress of the United States.  That is a true entitlement that was and is earned and "you" [editorially speaking or is it "poetically" speaking] must pay; that is a hard reality to swallow but it is fair and that's that.  What most passengers today call entitlement is such because they think that just because they went to all of the trouble of being born here they are somehow owed.  If you wnat "entitlement" you have to lay out the blood; if you're not willing to do that, well now, you're just plain not entitled.
I'll also grant as how money is "fiat" money today and the single greatest evil the Roosevelt administration did was to take us off of the gold standard, but now that we are where we are, it is sheer lunacy to expect to rid ourselves of "fiat" money and expect to go back somehow to the gold standard, in some time frame that expects immediacy.  If we do I will guarantee you that you will not live half as well as you are living at this moment and that a lot of people will get hurt unnecessarily.  One of the things that I found out in the Navy is that life is easy, just work hard, mind your square knots and "grannies" [keep your nose clean] keep to your core values [courage, honour, and commitment] and you will succeed at anything. Just pick anything you want to do and you can make it happen.
I do believe in a hierarchy of classes and the military is the quintissential expression of citizenship and therefore the best of classes in our country.  If anybody takes offence at that, well that's their problem not mine.  I speak as a typical representative of my class and represent my class interests.
And I do further believe that "class" is a motivation to succeed; what reason makes it? what justification is there? if at the end of the day at the end of life's struggles all you have struggled for is to maintain some kind of parity, some great glob of classless egalitarianism?  That is soul numbing and discouraging and is principally why the USSR collapsed, "Thank You God"!  Now, having said all of the foregoing I will also say that due to our White Anglo Saxon Protestant culture [ a cutural consideration not a racial one] of from the bottom up consensual government and a relatively vuivacious and uninhibited free market of entrepreneurial capitolism, class is no barrier to material well being.
I am still a military professional [a former Sailor, there is no such thing as an "exsailor"]; I served all of those years because I believed and I still do that my country is the best on earth, God given and God inspired [even with the shortcomings of some in it] and that my class is the best, and because of that I expect no one to "thank" me for my service; because "thanks" was not expected; that would not be professional.


Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

PeeeeeeEhS TM7; we are probably not as far apart as our exchanges might lead one to expect, though we differ in some particulars

Offline rifleman61

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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2006, 05:35:49 PM »
I have thought extensively about this subject; are you willing to audit an essay with proposals to solve "the tax" problem?
Say "Yes" and we shall have a good discussion.  We are ntoas far apart as one would might think.

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

Offline rifleman61

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A shipmate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2006, 03:53:44 AM »
No offence taken
Perhaps most  sandcrabs [read as civilians here]do not undrestand the military because they have so little  experience with it.  It is after all a closed culture and military service is "Not" a constitutional right; we are pretty selective about who we let into the "tribe", even among ourselves we get even tighter [SEALS/ESWS/RECON].  That said, one of the things that really sends me up the pole so to speak is the way the Navy e.g. sells itself in the silly assed recruiting infomercials; one would think them selling condo timeshares or Royal Carribean Golf Cruise outings.  They really offend me.  It is a hard life; the first time I saw my son was when he was 6 months old; the next time I saw him he was 8 years old.  That's because sailors belong on ships and ships are haze grey, underway and belong at sea and that's just the way it is.  If you expected anything different well you should have been a sandcrab.  Now he's a Cdr. in the Navy with a good reputation that I helped to build in some small way[the Navy is after a small family we eventually get to know everybody here]. It breaks many people and many marriages; the divorce rate is a disaster area--75%.  That said there are no complaints here, my beloved Navy took in a Kansas farm boy from a dirt poor family in 1961 and allowed him after his ass was properly and smartly kicked to make a career, provide for himself, raise a family, earn some privileges and establish a career for his son.  I love it all and if I had it all to do over agin, I would do it exactly the same way.
I will talk with You later "Shipmate TM7"

Anchor's Away/SemperFi
CPO Bull
PeeeeeeeeeEhs There are "careerists" in every field; the very worsts one are sandcrabs.  I'm a "professional"