Can-o-worms...shot placement

[Heavyhaul]

I am an ethical hunter and I like to learn.  Why is the "vital shot" "the shot"?  I have shot deer with a .264 Mag and they have run.  Mind ya, this shot was 100-125 yards and the deer was walking, I was leading, he stopped, I shot.  I could have wounded and lost a deer when I hit it dead-center-front shoulder.  If I would have shot at the head or neck it would have been a clean kill or a clean miss.  By the way, I did get the deer, 2 hours and 1/4 of a mile later.  I can understsand the a head shot on a trophy is bad, but what is wrong with a neck shot?  Please don't crucify me.  I have seen deer go down with one shot in the neck with guns that I would have never shot them in the vitals with.  Please enlighten me. :?

[Graybeard]

If I would have shot at the head or neck it would have been a clean kill or a clean miss.

Not so, this is a gross misconception on the part of lots of folks but sadly it just ain't true. You can shoot the jaw off a deer and will never recover it. The deer will then die a slow and painful death as it can neither eat nor drink and will just wither away until dead. Same for the neck shot. Properly executed it should be fine. But how sure are you of proper shot placement and what if the animal moves or for any other reason the shot goes astray? There isn't much room for error and you can just puncture the esophogus or air way and it will die but a long way off and very painfully without you recovering it because there will be no blood trail.

That's a bad think about head/neck shots, less liklihood of a blood trail vs. a body hit and too many who wound and the deer runs off just assume they missed when they didn't.

Shoot where you wish but don't assume a head or neck shot is an instantly dead and dropped deer or a miss. Just not the way of the real world.

[Skeeterbaymac]

Just my opinion.  I am by no means an expert.  The shoulder lung/heart area provides for a bigger target than the brain or spine shot in the neck.  I have taken deer in the neck and have had others that ran off as I missed the spine. With the "vital" shot/shoulder, heart and lung.  If you miss the heart you may still get the lungs and if you hit the shoulders chances are you will anchor him.  The deer that died the quickest that I ever shot was a butt shot on him rinning directly away from me. That deer was jumping a fence when I shot and he fell dead right on top of the fence.  Cleaning him was no joy.

[Heavyhaul]

Very good points Graybeard.  I have seen deer killed with a .22 rimfire to the head and I don't think that a "vital" shot would have done the deed.  I was just looking for opinins.  Please keep them coming.  That is how we all learn.  Well, at least me anyway. :wink:

[Dusty Miller]

Hey Skeeterbay, the technical term that describes that shot you made on the deer going over the fence is "Texas heart shot"!!

[Redhawk1]

Heavyhaul, in my opinion a head or neck shot is very iffy at most. I have never taken a head or neck shot on any game. When you said the deer was walking and you were leading the deer, in my opinion no lead is needed on a deer walking at 100 to 125 yards. Do you realize how quick the bullet travels at 100 yards? I have shot a lot of deer with my rifle at further distances while they were walking without a lead.

I like a high shoulder shot on my deer, some times they drop on the spot and sometimes they may go 100 yards on a dead run, and I mean a dead run. Sure I get a little meat damage, but I always collect my deer or other game I have shot.  

[Glanceblamm]

Very good reading & great answers.
That high percentage (heart lungs) is the one to take.

[Heavyhaul]

Redhawk,
You did repeat what I said, I just told your wrong. :oops:  I was follow the walking deer with my scope, as I touched the trigger, the deer stopped and I didn't.  Bad contact.

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk,
You did repeat what I said, I just told your wrong. :oops:  I was follow the walking deer with my scope, as I touched the trigger, the deer stopped and I didn't.  Bad contact.

OK I got ya!  

[Larry Gibson]

Heavyhaul

You shot the deer with a .264 Win and it went 1/4 mile means something went wrong. Are you saying "when I hit it dead-center-front shoulder" that it was a broadside shot and that is where you hit it? What bullet were you using and what was the wound channel like and what path did it take? Also was the "dead-center-front shoulder" in forward stride, rearward stride or some where in between? This is important as aiming at the center of the shoulder will not necessarily put a bullet into the heart lungs. You should visualize a soccer ball down low in the front of the chest cavity of a deer or elk. It is into that soccer ball that you must put the bullet, regardless of the angle of the shot or where the front legs are.

Using the center of the shoulder as the aiming spot will not do. The shoulder has considerable lateral movement on either deer or elk and many times is not over the heart lung area. This is especially the case when the animal is moving and/or there is any angle or “quartering” to an otherwise broadside shot. Aim for the heart/lungs, i.e. the soccer ball, and not the shoulder. Another point is to use a correct bullet for the cartridge that provides sufficient terminal ballistics in the given game. I’m not being critical here, well okay I am but you asked for help. The head and neck shot are not the best shots for the reasons given. Please provide the answers to the above questions so we can better understand what happened or didn’t happen.

Larry Gibson

[slave]

Men,

I once placed a 12ga slug dead center in the brisket of a nice buck standing no more tan 20yds away looking directly at me. It 180, bounded over a rise, in a flash no site of it. I walked to the point it was standing when I shot. Found no sign OTHER THAN THE TRACKS of at least twenty deer. Big help that was!! Since I did not here the deer running through the woods I formed an opinion that it must have ran down the old road bed it had been standing on thus I would not have heard it on the leaves covering the wooded edges of the old road. At 264 paces down the hill I found the buck dead. Now that is almost a quater of a mile with my stride on a down hill slope. Walked back and forth twice to look if I had missed any sign. Nothing at all. The only blood or hair I could find was were it laid dead. Field dressed the guy and found that my slug had entered the brisket hit the heart and every organ in a straight line stopping just short of exiting just below the you know were hole.
That was the 3rd deer I shot this way. The other two went 26" straight down. Point is all heart or heart & lung shots end up with results but not all recoverys will be the same.

Just looks to me like most of neck area is not what I consider to be of high target value and a deer seems to move its head more than most of its other body parts.  I would consider either of those shots to be more of a risk than a nice lung shot. I am not saying I would take a head or neck shot at close range but it would be a decesion based on rather or not I could get a better shot at a later time or even on another day.

[Heavyhaul]

Larry,
When I shot this deer I was intending to hit it behind the shoulder, till it stopped and ruined my plans.  When I shot I saw the impact and noticed a splatter.  I assumed that I had a good hit when it dropped like a rock.  My buddy walked over about 5 minutes later and we went thru the normal reaccount of things.  When we got to the deer, approx. 15 minutes after I shot, I saw a big patch of hide missing.  I unloaded my gun, handed it to him, approached the deer from the back, look at his eyes, and kicked him.  He jumped up and ran off. After getting a neck shot on him I discovered that the bullet exploded on impact.  It tore the hide off the size of a baseball and cracked the shoulder blade and never penetrated it.  Kind of weird and freaky.  I knoe it wasn't a good shot, but I have witnessed worse.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
When I shot this deer I was intending to hit it behind the shoulder, till it stopped and ruined my plans.  When I shot I saw the impact and noticed a splatter........It tore the hide off the size of a baseball and cracked the shoulder blade and never penetrated it.  Kind of weird and freaky.  I knoe it wasn't a good shot, but I have witnessed worse.

Have to disagree with you, it was not a bad shot. It was a poor choice of bullet. I'd say you weren't using 140 gr bullets? The .264 Win Mag generates considerable velocity. I have seen several deer shot with one using 140 gr bullets at 3200 fps plus I have shot several with 129 gr bullets at 3200 fps out of an 6.5-280 and never had bullet failure like that. What load were you using?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

slave

]Men,

I once placed a 12ga slug dead center in the brisket of a nice buck standing no more tan 20yds away looking directly at me. It 180, bounded over a rise, in a flash no site of it. I walked to the point it was standing when I shot. Found no sign OTHER THAN THE TRACKS of at least twenty deer. Big help that was!! Since I did not here the deer running through the woods I formed an opinion that it must have ran down the old road bed it had been standing on thus I would not have heard it on the leaves covering the wooded edges of the old road. At 264 paces down the hill I found the buck dead. Now that is almost a quater of a mile with my stride on a down hill slope. Walked back and forth twice to look if I had missed any sign. Nothing at all. The only blood or hair I could find was were it laid dead. Field dressed the guy and found that my slug had entered the brisket hit the heart and every organ in a straight line stopping just short of exiting just below the you know were hole.
That was the 3rd deer I shot this way. The other two went 26" straight down. Point is all heart or heart & lung shots end up with results but not all recoverys will be the same.

Just looks to me like most of neck area is not what I consider to be of high target value and a deer seems to move its head more than most of its other body parts.  I would consider either of those shots to be more of a risk than a nice lung shot. I am not saying I would take a head or neck shot at close range but it would be a decesion based on rather or not I could get a better shot at a later time or even on another day.[/quote]

I've seen numerous deer that were shot "in the brisket" or in the heart lungs" that went quite some distance also. Problem was while the shots were "in the brisket" and in the "heart/lungs" the bullet didn't manage to hit much or cause much damage. Fatal yes but it took a while for the deer to die and thus they traveled some distance. A brisket shot, even with a 12 ga slug, can slip to one side of the lungs missing the heart and arteries. A broadside heart/lung shot can go to high or to far back and only damage a small amount of lung. Thats why I asked about the path of the bullet through the deer. Also a deer running downhill will go a lot farther than one on level or going uphill. Did you notice the path of the slug through the deer?

Larry Gibson

[Heavyhaul]

When I said it was not a good shot, I meant it was not where I wanted to place it.  It was a long time ago, but I think that they were 140 gr.  I gave my brother my -06 to hunt and I borrowed a gun that I have shot many times.  I know that the were Seirra bullets.  I think he gave me the match-kings.  My bad, should have checked, but I tink that is what caused the problem.  NO PENITRATION at all.  
I thought that I would bring this up because my 221 FB with SXSP bullets will shoot a hole through 1/4 inch steel, but makes a mess of a ground hog wheen it hits flesh.  I know that it is caused by hydraulic action, but it just facinates me.  I'm a thinker, if I would have taken a neck shot, would it have broken the deer's neck and dropped him.  It is just a thought.  Keep sending info.  Thanks.

[longwalker]

I don't know who gernerated this idea that the animals we shoot must collapse everytime we shoot them. Maybe it's because most of us start out shooting small game. Believe us heart shot deer don't always drop. The point is you want to take the shot that will kill the game and leave you with the most usable meat. "Most usable" being a relative term. I have taken neck shots, as it was the only shot I was going to get. Heart Lung will always kill the game. Keep in mind, that the bullet must travel through the animal to get to the vital area. Especially on moving animals think about where the bullet will enter and where it will travel to.

A well placed shot and allowing the deer, if they run, some time to lay down, will bring you the success you desire. As a general rule, I let even the "bang flop" deer time to die in peace. It allows me some time to calm down and collect my thoughts.  Keep in mind, all the stories are experience, and not one of them is the same as the next. It's hunting and it's the experience that counts.

longwalker

[Heavyhaul]

Longwalker,
I agree with the experience statement.  That is a point here.  This happened to me almost 15 years ago.  I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the whole thing.  I undersand that it takes the impact to knock an animal off its feet.  That does not necessarily mean a good kill.  I was simply presenting the idea that if this shot would not have hit bone, would it have preformed different.  Basically the difference between a gun shot wound and an arrow is that a bullet has the power to knock a deer down to bleed rather than it running and bleeding out.  That is if the bullet hits something solid enough to knock it over.

[PaulS]

There is no gun that you can shoot that will "knock a deer over".  If the bullet can do that to a deer at say 100 yards think for a moment what the same momentum would do to the shooter. That bullet and the rifle it is shot from have exactly the same momentum. (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction).
It isn't anything like you see on TV.  A 12 ga shotgun will not knock a man off his feet and neither will a 300 Win. Mag.  Even the 50 BMG won't do it. The animal falls due to damage - either temorary or permanent  - to the central nervous system. If he has little damage to the central nervous system the bullet just cuts a hole through arteries and tissue that is necessary for life. That deer either bleeds to death, suffocates or both.
In order for a bullet to knock an animal off its feet it would have to carry enough momentum to accellerate the body to 6 feet per second around some point between the center of gravity and the ground. They don't make guns that big yet - and when they do you will only fire it once because you will end up on the ground too - just by pulling the trigger.

[Larry Gibson]

When I said it was not a good shot, I meant it was not where I wanted to place it.  It was a long time ago, but I think that they were 140 gr.  I gave my brother my -06 to hunt and I borrowed a gun that I have shot many times.  I know that the were Seirra bullets.  I think he gave me the match-kings.  My bad, should have checked, but I tink that is what caused the problem.  NO PENITRATION at all.......

Match Kings, must be why Siearra says they are not a hunting bullet! Had the bullets been SPs I'm sure we would not be having this conversation. Again, appears the shot was not bad, the choice of bullets was. Lesson learned here is to use a proper bullet for the intended game. Lots of difference beteen a varmint and a deer when it comes to a proper bullet.

All the other comments on "knocking deer down" are pretty much correct. Deer many times will travel some distance (from a couple steps to upwards of 100 yards) after shot with a well palced hit. The "behind the shoulder shot" seems to allow for more travel than one through the heart area. Also a bullet that breaks one or both front legs can limit the deers travel even more. However, a deer that travels more than 100 yards after being hit means the hit was not as good as you think it was. Put the bullet through the soccer ball and the deer will not go far if at all.

Larry Gibson

[mikemayberry]

You guys have made some great points and I agree with almost everything that has been said.

Two deer ago my doe was 160 yards out and I made a near perfect high lung shot.  Dime size in and quarter size out.  She ran 30 yards and was down--our only problem was that about a dozen deer ran (hadn't even been able to see them before the shot) and we didn't see her fall.  Thought she got away but we found her after thinking about it and tracking from the POI.  Caliber was .270.

Last deer was also shot with a .270 at 10 yards and this buck was hit in the nearest front shoulder (quartering to me) and the bullet put all its energy into the heart/lungs after bouncing off the far shoulder.  Deer was literally knocked off its feet and never wiggled or took a step.  Didn't even shudder.

I am learning about all this and do not consider myself an expert.  I was amazed that the deer never even moved when hit.  I know it is rare and .270 is no big deal caliber.  I am just adding the facts that on this particular shot, the deer dropped like a rock.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Personally,
The only shot I would ever take at a deer is a broadside or quartering away shot...and that's with a rifle, bow, or handgun.  First off, it is a BIG target, and second it is a quick, humane kill as long as one chooses the proper bullet/broadhead.  With all the deer in the field today, why risk taking an "iffy" shot?

I for one don't worry about the animal dropping at the instant of impact...save that when you have your own tv show.   You take out both lungs on a deer and you can pretty much guarantee trailing for 100yds. or less and with an easy to follow deer trail.  As an added bonous, there is little wasted meat.

Jim

[Heavyhaul]

We can beat this dog all day about the drop shot.  Some of the same people that tell me it is not reliable to drop a whitetail in its tracks are on another post saying that a 12 ga. slug will drop a grizzly.  If there is not a gun made to knock a whitetail off it's feet, then that whole thread is a waste of time.  I believe that there are firearms that would kill a whitetail and would barely make a Grizzly mad.  I know that this actually doesn't belong on this forum.  I made this shot with a rifle.  I posted it here to get a little different reaction.  Which I am getting, and enjoying.  Alot of people think that handguns are not ethical for big game.  From what I am getting from some of the posts, I would be apt to believe that.  I know that a 264 is not a large caliber, but at 100 yards i think that the list of handguns that would compete with it is short.  I shot what I would consider a very nice 8 point with a 30-06 at about 25 yards.  I shot it in the base of the neck because I was not sure how much damage the bullet would do to the meat.  When I touched the trigger, the deer landed flat on it's back, legs straight in the air, and DEAD.  All it did was fall over.
      I have done some reading and the Deer Hunter's Almanac , I think, has an article on the execution of a man in the 1930's.  I will have to find the article, but I think his heart was hit by 4 or 5 bullets and his body still functioned for over 30 seconds.  To me, that means to drop a deer in his tracks take something that will KNOCK it OFF it's feet.  Keep chiming in, if I'm wrong, I would like to be enlightened.

[Graybeard]

You are misunderstanding the physics involved. No shoulder fired gun of any kind is capable of "knocking" a deer off it's feet. Period.

However it's entirely possible for it to "appear" to you the shooter or an observer that it happened. If the bullet's impact takes out any part of the Central Nervous System (CNS) then the deer will fall as if knocked flat by the impact. Still the bullet cannot physically do that (knock them flat or even backward a wee tad). The bullet doesn't always have to impact the CNS but can just come close enough to transmit hydrostatic shock to it and the effect is the same.

If you think your load can "knock" a deer anywhere try this simple experiment. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with sand. Chances are it will stop your expanding bullet inside the bucket therefore absorbing the full paper energy the bullet has. Mark very carefully where the bucket's base is sitting before the shot and then measure the movement and come back and report to us the results. Then you'll never again want to tell folks a bullet "knocked" a deer anywhere. It simply can't do it.

[Redhawk1]

Thanks Graybeard, I am glad someone told the truth about that. One of my buddy's told me he knock a deer 8 foot from a shot from his shotgun with a slug. I told him it jumped 8 foot but you did not knock him back.  :-D

[Lawful Larry]

Sometimes I think our friends may watch too much hollyweird movies.  

As to the vital shot, I shot a buck last year with a 12 ga. copper solid sabeted slug at a distance of 45 yards.  The buck took off and ran for about 175 yards and finally dropped.  When we opened him up, the slug made mush of the lungs and heart.  How he had the ability to run at all is amazing for sure!  

The only time you will get a one shot drop is if you shoot the spine and cord.  

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Actually, I dropped a 6x6 bull elk in its tracks with my .280 Handi-Rifle with a single shot that went through the top of its heart.  He never took a step...  That being said, had a buddy destroy, and I mean DESTROY, the heart of a whitetail buck with his .30-06...and he had to track it an honest 100yds.
  Don't even ask me to explain it...

Jim

[Redhawk1]

In my opinion, it is in each animal in the will to live. Just like some guys can take a good punch, some guys fold up like a wet dish rag from the same punch. You can shoot 2 deer in the exact same spot but they both react differently.

[John]

I've killed a few deer in my 58 years, and knock on wood, I've not lost a single one, but I've had some go at least 100 yds after a good lick through the boiler room, but only had two drop in their tracks.

Now this deal brings to mind an interesting story that I'm gonna share here.

A good buddy of mine hunted on a place in the Verdigris River bottoms for a few years and killed several deer on the place. The land owner nor his son were ever interested in hunting, but the son being a friend of the fella that did hunt decided that he would give deer hunting a try.

The hunter took the son out to one of his good stands and left him to go to another stand that was fairly close. The hunter says right after good light he hears the son fire, and thought that he's probably killed his first deer. A few minutes passed, and he hears another shot...and then a bit later another. Now I'm not sure if there were three or four shots that were fired by the son, but it was one or the other.

My friend, the hunter went to where the landowner's son was and asked him where the deer were. This is where it gets funny. The fella says that he just must be a bad shot or something, cause he'd shot at 3 or 4 (like I said I don't remember which) and they just ran off.

My buddy found all the deer, and the son had the impression that they would drop in their tracks when shot by a high powered rifle.

[Graybeard]

You'd be amazed at how many folks operate under that same assumption and do not follow up after the shots to even see if they hit much less killed the deer. How many folks who take shots at 400-800 yards do you think even can much less try to locate the precise spot the game was standing in and then see if they can track and find sign of a hit if it doesn't fall to the shot?

[Redhawk1]

Yet another great point there Graybeard.