2 Guns need 1 load

[Abearir]

Here's my problem. I like to hunt with a Winchester 94 in 45 Colt and I also carry a Taurus RB in 454....and I'm having trouble finding a load to do double duty for hunting. My preference is 300gr XTP's, but am not sure of the performance I'll get on game up to the size of elk. Expected range is max 150yrds.  If I were to go cast...will I need checked bases?? Also  will it feed well in the 94?

Thanks for the input!

[PaulS]

Taking down an Elk is a lot to ask of a 45 colt. Even from the carbines you can't expect much more than 1000 - 1100 fps at the muzzle unless you load to beyond the SAAMI standard that your rifle is made to handle. You can actually get more velocity from your revolver using the Ruger and TC loads in it. I don't know that your rifle could withstand those loads for a prolonged period of time. Even at that level 300 grain bullet at 1150 - 1200 fps you are running a seriously underpowered load for Elk.
Your combination would be great on deer out to 100 yards but beyond that you have to be a really lucky guy and an excellent shot.

[Redhawk1]

PaulS is correct on all accounts. Also what shoot good in one gun does not mean it will shoot well in another. But as far as cast bullets, anytime you are pushing a cast bullet at higher velocities, you need a gas check.  

[riddleofsteel]

Do yourself and the elk a favor and trade that .45 Colt rifle for a 45-70 or .450 version. Both are easy to find and would suit your purpose. Another option is here;

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/86328

A 454 Casull rifle would solve several of your problems. A full house 454 load using a 300 grain XTP or hard cast SWC would give you the 150 yards you mentioned on elk from your revolver or from a 454 rifle. Some folks have taken Cape Buffalo with similar loads. You may have to seek medical help for your shoulder pain though.

LOL

Seriously, if you have to use the combo you mentioned load a 270 to 300 grain gas check hardcast SWC over a max load of powder and keep your shoots down to bow range, 35 yards or so.

[Camel 23]

I think you guys are under estimating the 45 Colt.  Here is a quote from John Linebaugh:

"I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt. My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards. In my estimation it kills as well as the .270, 30-06 class rifles if the shots are placed properly. If I were hunting heavier game I’d step up the velocity to 1200 fps and in extreme circumstances, (elk, hogs, bear) go to the 310 gr cast slug. This load, 310 at 1200 will go through elk like so much air."

That sounds to me like the 45 Colt can get the job done if the shooter does his part.  Hornady also lists loads for the 300gr XTP that are up to 1300 fps out of a revolver and safe in the Model 94.

[PaulS]

Look at what is being said:
260 grain cast at 900 fps - a 45 ACP shoots a 260 grain bullet at 850 fps, most would not recommend that gun on deer much less an Elk. Gun writers and politicians should have to prove the words that come out of their mouths with their life on the line. We would end up with fewer of both!

I think you guys are under estimating the 45 Colt.  Here is a quote from John Linebaugh:

"I have personally taken about 10 antelope and 1 mule deer with a .45 Colt. My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards. In my estimation it kills as well as the .270, 30-06 class rifles if the shots are placed properly. If I were hunting heavier game I’d step up the velocity to 1200 fps and in extreme circumstances, (elk, hogs, bear) go to the 310 gr cast slug. This load, 310 at 1200 will go through elk like so much air."

That sounds to me like the 45 Colt can get the job done if the shooter does his part.  Hornady also lists loads for the 300gr XTP that are up to 1300 fps out of a revolver and safe in the Model 94.

I understand the desire to believe what the "experts" write down but sometimes you have to stand back and look at what they say compared with known quantities. The process is called "critical thinking" and compares known facts to those in question to make realistic judgements on the plausibility of the unknown.

The hottest loads listed for "TC and Ruger" are only 200 fps faster than the standard loads for the old Colt SAA pistols. A 260 grain bullet at 1150 fps from a pistol is 550 fps slower and a hundred grains lighter than the standard Trap Door load for the 45-70. Would you expect front to rear penetration in a mule deer with the underpowered original loading of a 45-70? I wouldn't. I would expect that kind of penetration from a 180 - 200 grain solid bullet from a 30-06 or 300 magnum but not much less.

I could be wrong - I have never tried the 45 colt or 45-70 in that kind of shot. I am not likely to either because I have enough respect for the animal I shoot to wish a quick and humane kill. I feel that if the animal has given its life for me, the least I can do is take it with care.

[riddleofsteel]

The fact is most of these big bore handgun "experts" have the experience with .45 bullets. I 300+ grain .45 hard cast bullet penetrates and kills way beyond all your expectations if you have never hunted with one. I have had a 270 grain hardcast Keith style SWC that was moving at just over 1000 FPS zip thru a wild hog like he was hot butter. In one instance one hit a 200+ boar in the base of his neck angled back thru the offside shoulder and exited just forward of the offside rear leg. That's a lot of hog! In another case the same bullet moving at 1200 FPS from a 7.5" Blackhawk entered a whitetail deer's neck at the base of his throat and exited several inches to the left of his scrotum.
There is no real comparison of a slow, heavy large bore bullet and a fast moving rifle bullet. It is two different principals of ballistics. I hunt deer with a 270 rifle and with several .45 Colt pistols. I also use the .45 bullets in several muzzleloaders using sabots. My conclusion is that there is no replacement for DISPLACEMENT in killing power. Put the biggest hole thru an animal you can make. If the bullet is moving faster so much the better.
Having said all that my original post/advice listed above on his question stands.

[Redhawk1]

Camel23, he was talking using the 45 L/C out to 150 yards. I think that is stretching it a whole lot. 100 yards would be the max with the rifle but 50 to 60 with the handgun depending on how fast his load is.  JMHO

[Camel 23]

Wow, I didn't realize I was recommending the 45 ACP as an elk round.  I also didn't realize that Linebaugh was a gun writer.  I would love to pick up some of his books.  With all of the research, development, and field testing that he has done his books must be awesome.

The hottest loads listed for "TC and Ruger" are only 200 fps faster than the standard loads for the old Colt SAA pistols.

And we all know the old Colt SAA pistols are not capable of cleanly harvesting game of any size.  I wonder why they've hung around so long.

Gun writers and politicians should have to prove the words that come out of their mouths with their life on the line. We would end up with fewer of both!

I can't speak for any politicains but I don't think that anyone in the firearms industry has done more to back up their words than John Linebaugh.

Redhawk1 and riddleofsteel, I agree.

[Camel 23]

After re-reading my original post the load recommended for elk was a 310gr hard cast bullet at 1200 fps not a 260gr at 850 fps.  Big difference.  After doing some "critical thinking" maybe I wasn't recommending that he use a 45 acp.

Riddleofsteel,
Thank you for the real life examples of what you can expect from a heavy hard cast slug.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

...great topic.  Just was looking at some Ruger loads from Hodgdon.  I see some hard cast loads that push a 360 grainer at 1167fps out of a 7.25" barrel.  Seems to me with the added velocity of a rifle's barrel, this round would easily blast through a broadside elk even at 150yds; that's a good sized chunk of lead!
  The problem with this yardage, in my opinion, is actually putting the bullet where it needs to go.  Maybe you experts could help me, if the rifle was dead on at 100yds., how many FEET would it drop by the time it reached 150yds?

Jim

[Redhawk1]

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yds) (in) (moa) (in) (moa) (ft/s) (none) (ft-lbs) (s) (in) (moa)
50 2.6 5.0 0.4 0.7 1132.2 1.014 1024.5 0.130 22.9 43.8
100 -0.0 -0.0 1.5 1.4 1098.8 0.984 964.9 0.265 46.6 44.5
150 -9.8 -6.3 3.3 2.1 1069.1 0.958 913.5 0.403 71.0 45.2
200 -27.3 -13.0 5.7 2.7 1042.6 0.934 868.7 0.545 96.0 45.8

100 yard zero will put you 9.8 inches low at 150 yards at that velocity.  

[goosepit]

I can get a 335gr HC bullet going almost 1300 fps out of a 7 1/2" bbl and the winchester 94 is strong enough to handle this load, so it will leave the muzzle at much faster than 1000-1100 out of the rifle. I havent run these loads thru my chrony out of my 94 but I will this weekend and I'll let you know.
             Scott

[DakotaElkSlayer]

I can get a 335gr HC bullet going almost 1300 fps out of a 7 1/2" bbl

Don't forget to hold on TIGHT! :eek:

Jim

[Lloyd Smale]

first of al John linebaugh is a friend of mine and you can take it to the bank what he says is fact! Hes not got once once of bs in his body. He has never been a gun writer but his knowlege of handguns and the killing power of handguns and there bullets is probably unmatched in this country and thats a fact whether you so called self proclaimed experts want to argue it or not. Secondly a 45 colt rifle will do anything a 454 handgun will do if not more. Which puts it squarely in the realm of 4570 ballistics. A gun your ancestors used to wipe out the entire buffalo herd in the US now last time i checked a buffalo weighted about twice to three times what an elk weighted and they were doing it at sometimes twice that distance. Now i would never take a game animal at 150 yards with an open sighted handgun. Not that it cant be done. Go to a linebaugh seminar and you will see a small group of guys (that actually know handguns and know how to shoot them) that have the capabilty of putting kill zone hits on animals at easily twice that range and im sure camel23 who i know personaly and has shot with me will attest to the fact that you dont want to be standing in a field 300 yards away from me with a 45 colt  or for that fact him either. Would a 45 colt kill an elk at that range? Youd better not bet a red cent against it. Now put that same round in a lever gun thats substaintialy easier to shoot and adds about 300 fps and what do you think my answer is now. I along some of your dreaded gun writers witnessed another buddy of mine make a one shot kill on an antelope with a 3030 with open sights at 240 yards and ive witnessed him shoot rocks out to 500 yards in a way so consistant that you have a better chance of winning the loto then walking away if your the target and what would he be shooting most likely a 45 colt with a 300 grain bullet out the muzzle at 1200 fps which is what he shoots in his favorite long range handgun.  I was called stupid on another post here today by some people that i doubt have killed as much game in there lifetimes with a handgun as I have in a year. I guess its just pretty easy to be an expert on everything on this box. Buy two handguns and a lee press and you too know as much as someone thats been doing it for 20 years. Camel23 is one of the most  honest and staight shooting guys ive ever met and John linebaugh is another and most of you arent a pimple on the +++ of either of them. Best suggestion i can give some people here is to shut up and listen and learn. Theres a small bunch of guys here that know what there talking about and you can learn alot if you go about it in the right way. Now my actions and words here may be harsh and may cause bill to end my briliant carrier as a moderator. But frankly i dont much care. I sick to death of internet experts. You want to know what works on game and what works on animals go and shoot them! You question or bad mouth me thats one thing im willing to take the discussion to a more personal level at any time but when you bad mouth my friends and people i know and respect when you dont have a clue as to who or what they are then discussion time is over!!! ONe more thing gunwriters may no make everyone happy. They have a job to do just like you and they try to do it. Take one aspect of your life and write about it every day and see if you dont get stale once in a while. Bottom line is that the worse gunwritter out there knows more about guns then about anyone here. I count a few of them as good friends too and would stand behind them any day.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale, my reason I give such short ranger information with handguns is. A lot of the hunters out there that try there hand a handgun hunting don't have the experience or ability to hunt at further distances. I am very sure you as well as myself know the amount of time a person needs to put in to be  proficient with a handgun.  Hunting and shooting paper at long distances is even different in my opinion. I have hunted with a handgun for around 20 years now and have taken a number of game with a handgun. I love shooting big bore handguns and do it quit often. In my opinion a true handgunner has put a lot and I mean a lot of time in shooting and honing there handgun skills. To shoot at longer distances than normal also take a lot of dedication.

I have also seen guys go to the range with there new handguns and prepare for hunting and if they can hit a 8 inch pie pan at 25 yards off a rest, that they think they are ready to hunt. Far from it in my opinion, and I am more than sure you will agree.

My buddies and I when I lived in North Dakota use to go out with our handguns and walk the farm fields looking for jackrabbits. We would practice shooting them at different ranges. We put a lot of lead in them farm fields.

[Lloyd Smale]

hell pal i wouldnt even consider hunting with or carrying a gun for protection that didnt have at least 1000 rounds through it. I agree with your statement totaly. My statement didnt meen to condone shooting animals at 150 yards that would be just stupid. But i do know people that are more then capable. I absolutely hate smiths new 460 mag for that exact reason. Hell they advertize it as a 200 yard deer gun. Lots of crippled deer will be walking around because idiots will buy them sight them in off the bench and start blasting away at living animals with them. An open sighted hand gun is a 50 yard proposition for an EXPERIENCED handgunner and theres a few rare souls that can consistantly do it at 100. Put a scope on it and a guy that shoots thousands of rounds a year is a 100 yard proposition if hes got a good benchrest quality rest to shoot of off. A rare guy may bring that out to 150 But 200 is alot farther then 100 and that my friend is rifle territory. Ive just seen to many fools at the range with there new ruger or tarus 454 and a new box of factory ammo getting ready to hunt with them!! My God id like to kick them square in the ass. For the most part they flinch so bad that they couldnt hit a paper plate a 25 yards of a rest let alone off hand. I like the old paper plate test. STanding on your own two feet shooting off no rest at 25 yards take your gun and shoot 24 rounds at a paper plate and if you can hit that plate every time and i mean EVERY TIME! then try it again at 50 and if you hit it EVERYTIME move it out to 75 and if you can do it there your probably a better shot then most including me. IF you miss that plate one time back off your range to the last one you accomplished it at and limit your hunting to that range even if your shooting off a rest. YOu have to take into consideration that when hunting your heart is pounding the wind may be blowing and many other things are agianst you that arent at the range. As far as gun capability goes a 44 mag or 45 colt loaded with cast 300s at 1100 fps will take care of any non dangerous game (by the way that includes black bear :wink:  and elk) at ranges that you certainly have no bussiness shooting at them at. More people have to understand that buying a 2500 dollar linebaugh doesnt make me a more proficient hunter or shooter probably just the opposite. Very few people can actually master a handgun bigger then 44 mag. Like you said it takes total dedication to the sport and many many hours of shooting many thousands of rounds to get proficient with one. To me real big game handguns begin at 44 spec and 45 colts with 250s at 900 fps they will do alot of killing if you put a bullet where it belongs and they kill well at some pretty extreem distances again if the bullet is PUT WHERE IT BELONGS. No they wont flatten an elk but not much will but mark my words they arent going to bounce off anything. Push that same bullet to 1600 fps and youve gained about nothing in a handgun. You may be able to take advantage of the flatter trajectory in a lever gun but i doubt if it makes squat difference in a handgun. If you need more killing power step up in caliber and put a bigger hole in something but speed means little in big bores. These arent my theroys they been proven by me and by Guys like that "stupid gun writer JOHN LINEBAUGH" and elmer keith amoung others. Bad mouth either of them and its time to put up or shut up when im nearby. The oldtimers like John Jim Wilson John Taffin Lee Juras Terry Merback and a few others didnt have this stupid box to ask questions and gain knowlege on they did it the old fashion way they took there guns to the field and shot the crap out of them and hunted with them every chance they had and learned from other old school shooters to comment on what they knew and shut there mouth and learn if they didnt. I thank God i have met alot of these guys personaly and count some amoung my good freinds and would fight in a second to defend there honor because guys they have just that. HONOR. The last two day ive spent way to much loading and shooting time ranting and raving and if i offended someone it was probably intentional but it wasnt to be rude it was to open your mind up a little. Now I think ill take a 22 outside for a little blood pressure theropy. Redhawk I do know one thing your one of the rare guys on here that actually shoots there guns alot and i respect your opionion because of that. Maybe we both need to polish our diplomatic skills. Ah the hell with it Ill just keep saying what i believe and pissing off everyone.

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale I have tried to polish my diplomatic skills, but somehow my old self keeps shining through.  :-D I think I am to old to change now...

Now I do like the 460 Mag, not for its 200 yard capability, but it is nice to know it can do it as long as I am up to the task.  I have done a lot of 150 yard shooting with it, but not 200 yards. I do 70% of my practice at my self imposed limit of 100 yards for hunting. But in the back of my mind I know what I can do at 150 yards with my 460 Mag. I don't think the 460 Mag is for everyone, sometimes I think the 44 Mag is to much for some, to be really honest I don't think some guys should even consider handgun hunting, because they do not want to put the time in perfecting there skills.

[Lloyd Smale]

Hey redhawk ive got someone new to get angry with theres some idot on taylors lever gun fourm bad mouthing Elmer Keith!!! Thats worse then bad mouthing John Linebaugh!!!

[Camel 23]

How dare anyone bad mouth your dog! (yes LLoyd did name his dog Elmer)

[jeager106]

My statement didnt meen to condone shooting animals at 150 yards that would be just stupid...............Lots of crippled deer will be walking around because idiots will buy them sight them in off the bench and start blasting away at living animals with them. An open sighted hand gun is a 50 yard proposition for an EXPERIENCED handgunner and theres a few rare souls that can consistantly do it at 100.

Well that was the most sensible thing I've seen written about handgun hunting in a long time!

I'm experienced with a handgun but not at handgun hunting.
95% of what I did with a handgun was defensive work.
50 yards is a loooooooooooooong way with an open sighted revolver.
I once encountered a young fella with a .357 magnum six gun, complete with 10" barrel, sling, and scope.
He was shooting a deer sized target from the bench at 100 yards and actually hitting it once in a while.
I raved about what a nice rig he had and asked what he could do off hand at 50?
He got that 'deer in the headlights' look and I knew he never even thought about actually practicing offhand.
I set up a milk jug at the 50 yard line and asked him to demonstrate his feats of marksmanship.
He missed by several FEET with 12 rounds, turned red and left the range.
As well he should have.
I'd love to see some real offhand shooting at even 100 yards with any hunting handgun.
I betcha a lot of these internet warriors cannot hit a Volkswagon offhand at that distance. :-D  :-D  :-D
I see absolutley no use at all for th .460/.500 magnum handguns.
The handloaded .45 Colt and .44 magnums will do anything necessary at handgun ranges and that is in reality about 50 yards.
I'm tlaking about revovlers, not sawed off rifles like th T/C 14" barreled, scoped, excuses for a handgun.
There is nothing wrong with owning a .500 and others of that ilk.
It's just that I doubt they are anymore effective in the real short range world of handgun hunting than existing calibers.

[Jerry Lester]

Pretty good preaching Lloyd. :lol:  I'm a firm believer in "real world" experience v/s, well, you know :wink: ...

[Lloyd Smale]

Jeager we do differ a little there. I do own and shoot .500 linebaugs and a 457 and even a 454 they have there place in the game field IF YOU CAN HANDLE THEM!! Properly loaded even a 460 or 500 smith is a good hunting gun. BUt to me a hunting handgun is a cast bullet proposition. I wont get into my feelings on jacketed handgun bullets because it will just raise my blood pressure again. But anyone of these handguns pushing a well made cast bullet to no more then 1400fps and preferably 1000-1200 fps is probably the ultimate hunting handgun if you can shoot them and handle them. But as redhawk has stated they take more work to master then most people have the time or inclination to put in and if your not willing to put the time in and im talking in thousands of rounds not hundreds your better off with a 44 mag and even at that level it takes a dedicated handgunner to really master one. LIke i said im a firm believer in elmer and Johns preachings ive witness to many to many hunts in the field to not. Nothing works better in a handgun then a medium velocity cast bullet load and if you want to step up in power the only way is by stepping up in caliber not by stepping up velocity. Ive never saw where a handgun shooting at 1400 fps killed any better then one at 1100 fps.

My statement didnt meen to condone shooting animals at 150 yards that would be just stupid...............Lots of crippled deer will be walking around because idiots will buy them sight them in off the bench and start blasting away at living animals with them. An open sighted hand gun is a 50 yard proposition for an EXPERIENCED handgunner and theres a few rare souls that can consistantly do it at 100.

Well that was the most sensible thing I've seen written about handgun hunting in a long time!

I'm experienced with a handgun but not at handgun hunting.
95% of what I did with a handgun was defensive work.
50 yards is a loooooooooooooong way with an open sighted revolver.
I once encountered a young fella with a .357 magnum six gun, complete with 10" barrel, sling, and scope.
He was shooting a deer sized target from the bench at 100 yards and actually hitting it once in a while.
I raved about what a nice rig he had and asked what he could do off hand at 50?
He got that 'deer in the headlights' look and I knew he never even thought about actually practicing offhand.
I set up a milk jug at the 50 yard line and asked him to demonstrate his feats of marksmanship.
He missed by several FEET with 12 rounds, turned red and left the range.
As well he should have.
I'd love to see some real offhand shooting at even 100 yards with any hunting handgun.
I betcha a lot of these internet warriors cannot hit a Volkswagon offhand at that distance. :-D  :-D  :-D
I see absolutley no use at all for th .460/.500 magnum handguns.
The handloaded .45 Colt and .44 magnums will do anything necessary at handgun ranges and that is in reality about 50 yards.
I'm tlaking about revovlers, not sawed off rifles like th T/C 14" barreled, scoped, excuses for a handgun.
There is nothing wrong with owning a .500 and others of that ilk.
It's just that I doubt they are anymore effective in the real short range world of handgun hunting than existing calibers.

[Lloyd Smale]

lmao Steve. :-D  you bet i did my chocolate labs official name is Elmer Kieth! and hes the love of my life! i wouldnt trade him for every possesion i own. Hes at the range every day with me and will probably be deaf by the age of 3!!!!!!!!!!!

How dare anyone bad mouth your dog! (yes LLoyd did name his dog Elmer)

[Redhawk1]

The only thing I find wrong and disagree with is with the statements that there is not need for the 460 and 500 Mags or guns above a .45 Colt and .44 magnums.  When the top gun was a 357 Mag and 45 Long colt people were saying the same thing about the 44 Mag. Now look at the history of the 44 Mag. Just because one person does not find a need for it does not make the gun invalid. In the proper hands the handgun above the 44 Mag are very useful. Also no one is forced to buy anything above a 44 Mag, if you don't see a need leave them handguns to people that do. No need to say they are not needed.

Also I am one of them  Internet warriors that can hit my target off hand at 100 yards with my handguns. Handgun hunting a law enforcement skill differ a lot. I am not saying law enforcement  can't shoot well, I am saying they practice at short range and usually have someone shooting back at them. Hunting is a totally different mind set. I have seen law enforcement officers the are great marksman shoot like crap during hunting situations. Not all, it is just an example.


Lloyd Smale, I am more than sure you will get them straightened out.  :-D

[Lloyd Smale]

Lloyd Smale, I am more than sure you will get them straightened out.  

or ill piss off everyone here and theyll boot me off

[Graybeard]

Dunno Lloyd, it seems some times ya hafta get real blunt with arm chair experts. I am amazed most every day on here at what folks believe to be true that if they had any real world experience they'd know is wrong. Where they pick up all this "knowledge" is beyond me.

I agree that 50 yards with an iron sighted handgun is a long way even for an experience shoot on big game. It's pretty much my practical limit these days. Back when the eyes were better and my health was better and I shot constantly and used my old S&W 29 with 10-5/8" barrel in competition each week and hunted with it all over the country I'd have been willing to take a clear shot at a broadside animal at 100 yards but not these days.

I've done my share of that long range stuff too busting rocks and clacking metal plates and it's fun. For sure I'd not stand at 300 yards waiting to be shot by a fellow who practices such regularly and have mentioned to folks in the past they'd not want to do so if I were shooting. Of course these days they might be safe from me.    It's got to where I can barely walk to the 100 yard line to change targets anymore so it's cut into my shooting so badly my skill level has dropped drastically. But I've done it back when I could enough to know they things Lloyd is saying are true.

Folks who think differently just don't have the real world experience to back up their internet expertise.

[Lloyd Smale]

Hell Bill it looks like you have more spunk in ya then you give yourself credit for. I hope somehow you get feeling better soon pal

[barber]

Would using a BUSHNELL Holosight  be more accurate than iron sights, and accurate a little farther than iron sights (assuming one does sufficient practice). I sure appreciate all the info on this site.

[PaulS]

barber,

Any optical site is easier to get a good sight picture with than iron sights. When you get older it becomes more apparent because you find it difficult to keep the front sight and your target in focus at the same time. The optical sights, even without magnification, put the target and your sights in the same place and make it easier to pick the shot you want. The drawback is with pistols as the optical sights add bulk to a handgun that takes some getting used to and it is not as easy to pick up the target in the sight until you get used to it. Just doesn't seem to be instinctive to point the handguns like you do a rifle or shotgun.