Author Topic: Problems Marlin in 44 mag? (Read 2730 times)

Skeeterbaymac · « **on:** March 27, 2006, 10:18:43 AM »

I have a friend that has a young fellow about 11 who is small in size. I will be starting him on bear hunting this year over bait. I have a couple of classifieds up for a 44 mag barrel for one of my contenders, which I thought would be good for him to use. But I am also thinking a Marlin in 44 mag or a little Ruger auto, would be just the ticket.

My question is this: I have read somewhere that the Marlin barrel twist rate will not handle heavy 44 mag bullets. Is this true or just some false info. I would like to use 300 grain WFN lead bullets in it. Does anyone have opinions or first hand knowledge of these type/weight of bullets in the Marlin? I know with the older Ruger auto's overall cartridge length was an issue. Is that also the same with the Marlin's?

I will be keeping the gun for awhile after this boy is done with it, as his brother is 3 years away from hunting bear. Then there are some nieghbors and my own grand children that could use it. I figure the more kids I get involved in hunting, the less problems in the future for all of us.

RemingtonMagnum · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2006, 01:16:22 PM »

Only problem I have with the 44 mag is I don't have one any longer. The Marlin 44 mag is one of the best rifles I have ever experience shooting in my 50 years of hunting.

Don Jackson Remington Magnum/Ultramag

phydaux · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2006, 01:56:29 PM »

I have a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag and my son killed his first deer, an eight point, at the age of 9 yrs. old with it. IMHO you would have too look a long time for a better kids gun. I shoot 200 to 310 gr jacketed and cast with great results. You will like it as much as the kids!!!!! Have fun....

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #3 on:** March 28, 2006, 04:46:39 PM »

Thanks for the info guys! I guess maybe I will take a look around and locate a Marlin. Should be just about right for the young feller. :-)

357magnum · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2006, 08:41:17 AM »

The Marlin twist rate in their .44 Magnum is 1:38" (you can look it up in the Marlin website). The heaviest bullet weight that that will stabilize out of the 1894 is 270gr, from what I heard. The .45LC version of the 1894 has a faster twist rate which shouldn't pose any issues with > 300gr bullets. If you're shooting the standard 240 grainers, the 1894 in .44 Mag is awesome.

Feldhege · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2006, 08:48:37 AM »

That is what I had read on another site. So what would happen if you shot 300gr out of it? Would it just be in accurate? Would it cause any permanent damage? Would it shorten the effective range?

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2006, 10:37:24 AM »

Feldhege: It would cause the bullets not to stabilize and they would or could upset. No harm as far as damage to the gun, just would not be ideal for accuracy or penetration. Mac

Old Griz · « **Reply #7 on:** April 05, 2006, 06:59:10 AM »

:cb2: The Winchester has a 1:16 rate of twist, but good luck finding one now. The Marlin .44 I had wouldn't feed properly, and once that was fixed, the groups looked like I was shooting my Remington 870 instead of a rifle. If getting a .44 mag rifle today I'd probably go with either a Ruger Deerfield carbine, or a Henry.

Feldhege · « **Reply #8 on:** April 05, 2006, 07:45:37 AM »

So if I can't find a winchester (for a reasonable price), who else makes one that has a rate of twist for heavier bullets? Most I have found are 1 in 38 which is not enough right?

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #9 on:** April 05, 2006, 08:01:52 AM »

Feldhedge: I believe Old Griz is saying the Ruger and Henry both have different twist rates than the Marlin. I think that most factory web sites list the twist rates for their different guns you can check.

Old Griz: That is the same problem I had read about and that is why I wanted to get opinions/expereinces from folks that owned them before I bought one. Thanks!

Dee · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2006, 08:54:16 AM »

I guess they have fixed the Winchesters since I owned one about 15 years ago. I had one that keyholed 240gr factories at 15 yards. Got my money back from the dealer but, it sure was a handy size. :cry:

Feldhege · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2006, 09:05:12 AM »

Skeeterbaymac: Yep. I checked Henry. 1 in 38. Rossi is 1 in 30. What I was asking was if anyone knew of someone who made a 1 in 12 like winchester did. If not, I will just have to save my pennies and pay the piper.

Old Griz · « **Reply #12 on:** April 05, 2006, 10:01:05 AM »

:cb2: Skeeterbaymac;

I wanted a lever gun in a pistol round, and not wanting to be burned by a .44 again, I went with the .357. I read a lot of complaints on the old Marlin forum about the .44, but never a discouraging word about the .357. I am sooooooooo glad I got one. It is so amazingly accurate with .38s that I haven't even shot any .357s through it yet. One of the first loads I tried was the Armscorp LRN (made in the Philippines), and it shot a tighter group at 100 yards than I have ever gotten out of my .30-30. Talk about a fun gun! With 38s it's like shootin' a .22 that makes really big holes! I guess I better see what it does with .357s so I use it on coyotes.

Downeaster · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2006, 03:26:12 PM »

I love my 1894 SS - very accurate w/240 grain bullets. :grin: I am going to try heavier bullets, however. I hear that 270 gold dot works real well. I haven't heard anything bad about the Marlin 94. People who have them seem to value them as great hunting tools.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2006, 04:07:05 PM »

Old Griz: I too have not seen anything bad on the 357 marlin. The only problem is I wont use a 357 on bear, especially with a young fellow behind the trigger. Now that 357 would be the cats meow at the camp for every thing but bear and moose! Heck 38 wad cutters and head shots on snowshoes, coyotes, foxes, you name it. I bet she is the perfect light weight carry rifle. I thought about the 45 LC but I carry a 44 mag pistol and really would like to keep it the same. :grin:

Feldhedge: I think Ruger is a faster rate of twist, I have not looked at them yet but I think they are. Both the lever and auto. But with the Ruger I don't want to run into the problem of bullet length in the mag. :grin:

Downeaster: Yep your experiences with the 240 is like what most folks have. I guess they drive those bullets great. I would like to use 300 hard cast and I get mixed opinions on the Marlins for them. Some guys say they use that weight and have great accuracy and others like Old Griz have had bad luck with them. I hate to buy a rifle that won't do what I wanted it to do. Let me know if and when you try some bigger stuff in it and see if it tumbles or "key Holes". I am not looking for 1 inch at 100 yds. I would be happy if I got 2 inches at 50 yds. Just MOA bear at 100 yds. Although 50yds will probably be the Max. :grin:

Thanks for all the information guys. It does help as I have never owned one and I can get opinions from folks that do before I buy. It makes it a lot easier and less chance I will be disappointed!

Downeaster · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2006, 04:57:33 PM »

Skeeter,

I'll let you know how the 270 gold dots work. I believe a good recipe for those will be 20.5 grains of win 296 w/magnum pistol primers. I have a feeling that would be an adequate load for the average Black Bear.

My buddy has been loading 300 grain XTP's for his Super Black Hawk. He said he would load some on the upper cannelure, so I can try them in my Marlin. If they prove accurate, I'd say that would be a bear killer.

You know, for deer, however, a 240 grainer is all you need.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2006, 05:54:29 PM »

Downeaster: Your right about the 240 for deer. I have shot one bear with the 300 XTP load in a blkhwk they do work. Your friend is well armed with that bullet and gun combo! I don't know I am probably making to much out of the hard cast thing. From a rifle stand point probably the increase FPS with lighter jacketed bullets would be just fine. In the past I have had problems with jackets coming apart (read NOT the XTP's They always stayed together) but others and it just made me go back to hard cast lead.

There is a thread on one of the other forums where a fellow with over 100 bear kills under his belt (most with a handgun) recomends 240 HP for black bears. What I get out of his statement, is that in his experiences he has found that the 240 HP expends most of it's energy inside the bear, and while you don't get a exit wound always, he finds less tracking is needed and of course the wound channel would be greater. He says the hard cast bullets, zip right threw and out the other side with very little effect on the bear, until he realizes he is dead. He is right about them exiting a bear. You won't recover many.

Now I have killed a lot of bears, but not no 100 of them. So I have to give his opinion some respect and consideration. That being said I still know what has worked for me in all these years and I hate to change.

Let me know how they work and again thanks for the info!

Mannlicher · « **Reply #17 on:** April 13, 2006, 11:38:53 AM »

Quote from: Downeaster

Skeeter,

I'll let you know how the 270 gold dots work. I believe a good recipe for those will be 20.5 grains of win 296 w/magnum pistol primers. I have a feeling that would be an adequate load for the average Black Bear.

My buddy has been loading 300 grain XTP's for his Super Black Hawk. He said he would load some on the upper cannelure, so I can try them in my Marlin. If they prove accurate, I'd say that would be a bear killer.

You know, for deer, however, a 240 grainer is all you need.

I have been using the Speer 270 grain GDSP for years. My load uses 21 grains of H110 powder, and CCI magnum large pistol primers. Accuracy in my Marlin 1894 averages less than two inches at 100 yards, and I have killed 8 deer now with this rifle and cartridge. I have an older (El Paso) Weaver 20mm V4.5 scope mounted.

myronman3 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:41:12 AM »

my 1894 is sweet with 240 grain bullets, but the 300+ grainers will punish you. and i mean that. accuracy isnt the best, but i havent figured out if that is because of the gun's twist, or if it is from me getting hammered from the recoil.

as a side note about the ruger auto-no lead bullets. ther levers you should be able to use them, but not in the autos.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #19 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:00:59 AM »

Thanks guys! I have been looking into this a bit more. I am in no hurry as I have untill late summer this year.

Myronman3: Just yesterday a fellow told me the same thing about his Ruger auto. Appearently the lead goofs up the gas system or something. I didn't realize there would be so much recoil with 300 grainers in the rifle. I guess I better re-think my load choice! This is for a youngsters first bear rifle.

myronman3 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:17:14 PM »

how big are the bears in that area?

just shoot 240 grain cast bullets, loaded apropriately. by that i mean no faster than 1500 fps out of the rifle.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #21 on:** April 14, 2006, 02:40:07 PM »

myronman3: Bear size varies greatly. You can kill anything from 100 to 600+ .

I normally get the 250-350 lbs class. I would also say thats the norm of what I see in my area and my farm all summer. I know our state officials say the average is smaller, but that's what I see right around me.

I have a theory for why the state feels the average is smaller. They get alot of their stats from hunting check station reports. We got a big guide business up here and a lot of guides are running a lot of baits. They do not have the time to work bigger bears for their clients. If a bait is active it gets a hunter. Also the hunter does not have a lot of time to pick and choose. If a bear comes in the hunter usually fills his tag. Maybe if he waited a bigger bear would have come in just before dark/maybe not! It's not the hunters fault as he has no idea how many bear are hitting the bait. Most of the time the guide doesn't have time to figure it out either. Like I said it's just my theory. But with a little care, a timmer and camera most folks running a few baits can know exactly whats comming in on a bait.

I am sure that the 240's will do the trick. Being it's a young fellers first I will probably drag out the 45-70 just in case. I normally just carry a 44 mag pistol. But I hate to have anything weird happen that I couldn't deal with quickly.

Thanks!

Dune · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2006, 04:54:23 PM »

skeeterbaymac, I have a marlin 1894 with 20" barrel, I regularly shoot a 300 gr fp bullet loaded over 9-10 gr of universal clays, does not kick hard at all, shoots straight through deer lengthwise, very accurate no groups over 2 inches from a rest at 100 yds . The bullets I have right now are Meister bullets 300 fp. I have used a few other brands of 300s with similar results. the kick is much less than any 44 mag factory load that I have shot. Dune

Feldhege · « **Reply #23 on:** April 18, 2006, 02:39:06 AM »

Now that changes things. I'm Confused.

Most people say that they can't shoot over 270gr bullets accurately out of a marlin. This gives me hope!

Downeaster · « **Reply #24 on:** April 20, 2006, 04:00:16 AM »

Hi Sketter,

I did shoot some 300 grain XTP's (that my buddy loaded for me) out of my Marlin 94ss (seated at the top cannelure) and they functioned and grouped fairly well (about 2 inches at 50 yards). I didn't find the recoil too punishing.

Like I said before, I think these bullets would work well.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #25 on:** April 20, 2006, 01:36:27 PM »

Many thanks Downeaster: I have a lot of respect for the XTP's and your accuracy is plenty good for bait ranges. I guess I better locate a Marlin. I think it will be fine and if not I will drop down to 240's.

Thanks to all for your great advise!

Mikey · « **Reply #26 on:** April 21, 2006, 01:42:47 AM »

Skeeterbaymac - If you find a marlin that still has the Micro-groove barrel do not dispair - you and your son can have a great time making that beast shoot the heaviest cast slugs you can imagine.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with a micro-groove barrel, it just needs firelapping to shoot cast slugs. You can probably shoot jacketed factory loads pretty well - at least minute of deer but if you want max accuracy out of those barrels with the heaviest hardcast slugs you can find, either drop on down to the Veral Smith Forum for his recommendations for firelapping your bore or go to the Beartooth Bullets website (you have to read about the results they have gotten with their process) for their information and materials. Believe me, the process works. And truly, now that Winchester is outta business and Marlin is the only firm making 444s, I'm sure the next one I buy will be the Marlin and it will get firelapped.

If you decide to go the firelapping route please make certain you follow whoever's procedure you decide to use. Some folks think about skipping a step or two to save time or don't think that doing 'this or that' is necessary. It's a hoot and you and your son can have a lot of fun getting to know that rifle in the process. HTH. Mikey.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #27 on:** April 21, 2006, 02:03:51 AM »

Mr. Mikey: Thanks for the information. It's not my son but a friends son. Mine are all growed up.

I have a Marlin in 45-70 with the micro groove barrel. The reason I got it is because I could shoot hotter loads than the old 86's. It's been a great rifle but I have always stuck to jacketed bullets because of the micro groove barrel. I never heard of firelapping the barrel on one to solve the problem. I may try that on the 45-70 and start using lead in that.

Thanks for the great Info!

papajohn428 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 07, 2006, 06:53:04 AM »

Skeeter, I've read all this stuff about 44 Marlins and their obsolete twist rate and bad accuracy, and all I can say is try it in YOUR gun and see. My guns can't read, and I don't believe everything I hear, so I tried some Meister 300-grain hard cast lead slugs in my 1894SS, just to see for myself. I generally shoot at 50 yards, and my WORST groups were about an inch, most of them closer to half that. I tried several powders from Unique to Lil Gun, and the results were pretty consistent. They were NOT firewall handloads, most about 15% below the listed max loads. There was some recoil, as expected, but nothing too brutal for my 85-pound son. And he does NOT enjoy recoil, he has no padding, nothing but bones. He thinks they're fun to shoot, in limited quantities. Try them and see!

Papajohn

Old Griz · « **Reply #29 on:** May 13, 2006, 07:05:20 PM »

:cb2: Then there's always the .30-30 . . . :eek: