Big Bore Backup?

[TraderJack]

:mrgreen: Ok Guys, I've looked at most of the threads abouting handgun hunting and have yet to find anything that looks like will answer my questions.  Please help!

We're going to the northwest woods next winter for bear and elk

I plan on carrying My 10mm Kimber Eclipce Custom II in a cross chest rig as primary and my partner will be carrying my Marlin 1895G in 45-70 (It's riged as a Scout rifle- Leupold fixed sight on AO rails),with Garretts 500 grainers as general purpose backup.  

I'd like to carry another 1911 in 10mm, but my instincts tell me to buy a .454 Casul Alaskan  or maybe a .500 S&W X frame in 4 " bbl.

I'm comfortable with the knockdown power of the big loads in the 10mm. But, if TSHTF for some reason
 :biggun:I think I'd like the warmth and security of a .454 or .500 at close range(4-10 ft) to CMA!
                                                                   
DOES ANYBODY OUT THERE HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE DOING STUPID THINGS LIKE THIS? :?:
Maybe you could recommend a mean wheel gun as back up to the 10mm. Is .454 or .500 Smith the way to go?  I can't imaging going lower?
I realy think my partner wants the other 10mm for his backup! :wink: :mrgreen:
Thanks
TraderJack

[Redhawk1]

TraderJack, you obviously have not gone back far enough, this has been discussed in great depths here. You have some guys here that will tell you, NO handgun is a good backup. Then you will have guys like me that say a handgun makes great back up. It all comes down to the experience of the shooter in the long run and good common since when in bear country. Do your best to avoid encounters that will cause the need for a back up. I personally think a 4 in S&W 500 Mag is the best handgun available as a back up in bear country. The Ruger Alaskan 454 Casull will work also, but if your going to go big, you might as will get the 500 Mag, the second part to this is practice, practice, practice.  

[Camel 23]

It won't matter what you carry for back-up.  At 4 to 10 feet you won't have time to pull the hammer back anyway if a bear is headed your way.

The advice from Redhawk1 above to avoid the situation to need a backup is the best advice.

[Questor]

Here's an interesting statistic: pepper spray is over 90 percent effective at stopping bears, firearms are only about 65 percent effective. That's why the "pros" prefer pepper spray.

[Redhawk1]

Here's an interesting statistic: pepper spray is over 90 percent effective at stopping bears, firearms are only about 65 percent effective. That's why the "pros" prefer pepper spray.

Yes bear love the added spice when they are chewing on you leg.  :-D  :-D

Give me a gun any day.  

[Questor]

It's a statistic that I wouldn't disregard if I were going into bear country. Trouble never seems to work the way you think it does, unless you're prepared with the right information.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

That scout rifle in your hands is probably a heck of a lot faster and more accurate than trying to do a quick draw with a revolver.
  I just put on layaway my future bear back-up...a .45Colt Vaquero!  The way I figure it, I don't see how a 500Mag would stop the bear any quicker with a head, spine, or shoulder shot than a hot loaded .45Colt when shot at close range.  With the benefit of less recoil, the Colt will be shot much more allowing me to be a better shot with it than I would with one of those big dogs.
  Right or wrong, probably doesn't really matter...the odds probably dictate I have to worry more about being hit by lightening than being mauled by a bear.  I just needed an excuse for the wife on another handgun purchase!

Jim

[Turk]

Are you planning on using that 10mm for bear and elk?

Concerning what to carry.  I think I'd like to hear from someone from Alaska since these guys and gals hunt and fish where the big guys hang out.  Also what does the Alaska Division of Wildlife recommend for their field workers.

Also concerning the stats for the pepper spray where would I find this report?

Thanks,

Turk


Remember to pray for our troops.

[Questor]

The stats were in a recent Field and Stream or Outdoor Life magazine-- within the past 6 months.

The Alaskans consider the 44 magnum to be minimal, and long guns are preferred.

[corbanzo]

Where did you find that statistic, I'd like to see it too?  And did they take into account whether the weapon was actually fired?  I've lived in AK my entire life, and I don't know even one person who carries spray for bears.  I do know people who have killed charging bears with handguns though.  It seems to me kind of like the statistic on home gun use for protection... where they used all incidents of home shootings of residents or friends, which includes intrahousehold violence, aka murder.  

How far in the NW, and what types of bears are in the area?  If it is mainly blackies, and they rarely see browns, then anything .44mag to .500smith.  If there are browns seen often, then .454casull or above (.45-70, .460smith, .500smith)  And if you look in the Gizzley Stopper post, there are 145 replys about this same topic for you to look through.

[Redhawk1]

corbanzo, some guys believe everything they read in them gun rags.  :-D

DakotaElkSlayer, use what you want, I just choose the 500 Mag. As far as shooting it a lot, I do plenty of practice with my 500 Mags. Reloading is the key to a lot of good range time.  
But a 500 Mag has two times the knock down power of the 45 L/C. I never seen a 45 L/C with a 440 or 575 gr. bullet either.  :wink:

[Skeeterbaymac]

I guess I will venture into this one and add my two cents worth.

  I used to live in Alaska now I live in Black bear country in northern Maine.  I have never been charged by a griz.  I always made plenty of noise and everyone I came acrossed ran when we met. But I have by a black bear more than once, (even once on a farm tractor) :? .  No idea why but me and black bears do not always get along.

  If I suspected I was going to have a griz problem, I would carry the 375 HH or my 45-70 rifle.  But we never know, so here is my two cents:

 I agree with Mr. Redhawk on this subject!  The biggest pistol you can shoot and shoot well (read handle the recoil)  Mr Redhawk carry's a 500 or 460 and I do not blame him. Same for Mr. Corbanzo and his 454. All are great calibers!  I carry a 44 mag as I have found thats the limit of what I shoot well.  If I could shoot a 500 as well then believe me I would be carrying one.   Any of the big guns, 44 mag and up will work.  I have shot many black bear with a 44 mag, and one with a 357 mag.  I would not use a 357 mag on black bear again (unless he was attacking), but it's what I had in my hand at the time and I was younger and more foolish.  Whatever you use, you must practice at realistic ranges. Keep in mind if a bear (especially a griz) that you didn't know was there,  comes out of the brush at you.  You will be excited (so to speak) they are very impressive. You must be able to place a shot where it needs to go.  

 Pepper spray: I hear it works and works well, I have never used it on an animal but I have used it on people and I have had mixed results. Of course the spray was 10% typical LE stuff and may not be what the bear stuff is.  My only thought on the bear spray is if it doesn't work, will I still have time to engage him with a weapon.  Or did I use up my one chance at stopping him?  

[TraderJack]

Many thanks for all the input.
I guess I've had my fill of long range(150-200yds) hunts so the intent of this hunt is to do some stalking.  My friend and I feel if we can get to within 30-40 yds of prey, that the 10mm will be an effective elk stopper.   Of course that remains to be seen(that's why the 45-70 and Mr Garrett's bullets will be tagging along).

My concern was mostly about being surprised by a bear in the brush.  I realize that 90% of the time if you're surprised by an angry bear it's going to be very bloody.  I'm just thinking if I have a shot at all, it will probably be at very close range.  If my friend empties 4 rounds from the Marlin into the beast and he's still coming, I wanted something to go down fighting with(of course I'll have my Gerber LMF II as well).  At that stage of the theoretical event, the 10mm, I feel would be worthless, hence the question of a big bore back up.

I realize the big bore revolvers pack a heck of a recoil and that' Ok.  I just haven't seen a lot of praise for the .454 Casull round and I know the Smith .500 is only a couple of years old.  That's why I was seeking advice about which would be "better".

My weekly range results with the 10mm have been satisfactory at 5" groups at 40 yds.  At 20 yards, I can put 8 rounds inside a soup can in 15-20 seconds.  I don't know if I'll be able to shoot the big bore as well.  The 10mm is loaded hot but nothing like the Smith .500!

I still have some time to consider, but as of now, it looks like the S&W .500 has inched ahead.

My best to you all, and
Thanks again!
TraderJack  

[Turk]

TraderJack,

Your post: I still have some time to consider, but as of now, it looks like the S&W .500 has inched ahead.

Why not go with a 454 or 500 as your hunting gun.  I'm a handgun hunter and (most of the time) and to be quite frank using a 10mm on an elk is pushing it.  A couple years ago I hunted elk in colorado and carried a CZ 9.3x63 I also carried a very healthy loaded 44 mag. to use if I would happen to get a close shot 20 or so yards which I didn't.  My goal is for a one shot stop making two big holes.   Concerning shooting your 10mm 8 rounds in 15-20 sec. lets hope your first shot on the elk is well placed.  Think about but I don't know anyone who uses a 10 on elk.

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

[TraderJack]

Hey Turk,
I appreciate your suggestion - but shooting from the "bottom up" is part of our plan.  I know I could start with hot .44 magnum and go up, but, I guess I want to find out if this 10mm is a real stopper or just a bunch of hype.  I'm with you, I don't know anyone that uses 10mm for elk either!
I've shot pigs with it and it literally spins them head over heels.  But I have not elk with it!

I'll be using loads at 215gr., rated at 1225fps/ 717 ft./lbs.   I'm hoping a well placed shot to the heart, will produce two "big holes" as you suggest.  If not, we'll need the Marlin to finish the job.

I guess I'm a little tainted by an experience long ago.  I witnessed a fellow "tease" a brown bear with a .22LR for five rounds before the bear charged and was finally taken with six shots from a S&W .44 mag at EXTREMELY close range.  Not only was I frightened by the charge, I was repulsed by the shooter's technique of "teasing".  

I guess I feel it should be more "sporting".  I don't know if 10mm is "enough gun" either and I'm certainly not interested in any teasing, but, while I'm cautious about this project, I feel confident the hot loaded 10 will perform.

I understand that there may be a risk of cruelty if the 10mm does not do the job on the first attempt, but I my friend and I are both good marksmen with the Marlin.  If I miss, or the 10mm does not stop him, the creature will not suffer long.

We plan on doing more "ballistic tests" of our own this summer.  But. for now, we're pressing ahead.

Thanks for your post!
Regards,
TraderJack

[TraderJack]

OOPs - double post

[Skeeterbaymac]

I have never hunted elk or used a 10mm so I can not comment on that.

  I would like to add to my last thread. Let me just say that your chances of having a bear problem are very slim.  My incidents have been over many years and if compared with the amount of bear I have had contact with, the precentage would be extremely low.  In all of my incidents with Black bears the bear was either wounded or it was a young adult male that was out causing trouble in the spring time.  I see bear in the summer almost every day on our farm and yet I have only had a problem with just a very very few.  Most bear run right off when they notice me.  Even during bear baiting most will leave the bait on a run.  

 Just didn't want to give anyone the impression that all bears are evil and jump everyone they see.

  I have had two encounters with young male moose during rut that were strange as well, (not scarry) just strange.  I had one follow me for more than a mile on a trail.  He would get real close to me (within 25 yds)  I couldn't shake him.  I got off the trail and went in the woods and he followed.  I got back on the trail and he did too.  Every time I stopped, he stopped.  I even fired a round in an old stump near by and he just stood there.  Just when I was thinking how was I going to explain to the wife why I brought a moose home for dinner, he turned and went about his way.  He never charged or showed any aggression if he had I would have dumped him.  He just acted like a big stray dog.

  Carry a big gun for your peace of mind and just in case you meet that one bad attitude.  But chances are you won't need it.  Mac

[TraderJack]

Thanks Mac,
I feel much as you do - a bear encounter will be rare.  But, you know the drill, I would rather have a stopper than need one...  :wink:

You know, I had a young fawn do that to me once.  Followed me for about a mile, then just disappeared!  I figured he was orphaned.  Could have been the same with the moose?

Best of luck
TraderJack

[corbanzo]

Just a suggestion though, if you have never shot one of those short barrelled big boys, do it before you go out and use it for protection.  These superredhawk Alaskans can jump around in your hand like crazy.  Power only works if you can hit with it.

[TraderJack]

Yes Sir! Corbonzo Sir!  Yes Sir!(I really used to like saying that!)
and neither of us has fired any pistol bigger than the 44 mag.(Unless I count that wheellock lead ball at about .88" in dia.  I think It was charged with over an OZ of BP  Knocked me on my a**!
Yowsuh...  Whatever wheel gun goes with us, you can bet your biffy that both of us will have at least 1000 rounds downrange.  

Not just for familiarzation and recoil adjustment either, we're going to try and be as scientific about this project as a couple of old pfartz in their prime, declining years can possibly be.
I suspect we'll be burnin' up ammo all summer trying to get the feel of strong hand/weak cover, week hand/strong cover, weak cover/weak hand and so on.  Speed load on your back, speed load un you belly lying perfectly still.  I've sketched up a course for us using rolling barrells, balls on clothes lines, balls, released from brush and a claxon timed evcent.  We're hoping his cousin will let us play for a couple of weekends before he kicks us out
I even thought about ropes but... nah, ropes for camp and that's all.

If you fellas come up with a better plan, we're all ears.  There's nothing cast in stone yet.  

But, thank you! for all your insight!
Regards
TraderJack

[jeager106]

Interesting how these kinds of questions can get talked about then rehashed a week later and still draw so many responses.
I think we all have opinions and want to be heard.
Nothing wrong with that.
I read all the bear, cougar, attack stuff because it's both tragic, interesting, and can happen to anyone at anythime when people invade the territory of a meat eater.
Oddly enough most nearly ALL the attacks that happened to hunters happened to hunters with a rifle either in the hands, or very near by.
Oddly the attacked hunters that were armed got bitten, mauled, eaten, killed and generally messed up their whole day.
Keep in mind I am talking about hunters in the act of hunting, not joggers, cyclists, campers.

That said one might wonder why in the world we think that strapping a.500 magnum on our hips will protect us in any fashion from an attack when the majority of armed hunters were attacked and the rifle in the hand failed to stop the aggressive behavior.

Read that last sentence again please.
Mind you if I were archery hunting in an environment in which I could suffer the big bite I would feel better with said .500 gee-whiz stomper but I doubt I'd have the chance to clear leather with a handful of bow and arrow while a bear chews my face off.

No doubt carrying a back up giant killer handgun makes one feel better but likely leads one to a completely false sense of security.

The upside is that any excuse at all, no matter how false, or silly,  is reason enough to spend the big bucks on a big bore sixgun.

You guys that hunt dangerous game on this side of the planet 'splain something to me.
Which one of you really believes you would drop the rifle in your hand to draw the pistol on your hip?
If you so afraid of being eaten by a cougar or bear why would your rifle ever be out of reach?

Imagine still trying to hit a bouncing soft ball comming at you from very close up and personal with your handgun while you are wondering why you ever left home?

I'd like to see some exhibitions of daring do and marksmanship like that one day.
I'd love to be able to throw a soft ball at one of the hero hunters from 30 feet at 25 m.p.h. and see how many can drill the soft ball from the leather with the super gee whiz maggie.
Or the rifle for that matter. :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[/i]

[Skeeterbaymac]

jeager106:

  I have killed bear with a handgun.  I have killed wounded bear with a handgun.  I have had wounded black bear charge me and I have dispatched them with a handgun! Just last year I tracked two black bear, both wounded with muzzle loaders. I tracked them with one little old ruger blackhawk in 44 mag as thats all I normally carry (read the hunter had the muzzle loader). While I did not have to use it last year, the little Ruger was in my hands just the same. Might I also add that a great deal of the shooting of bear off baits up here is done late in the day, near dark and by the time we are tracking, a great deal of the time we are tracking with flashlights.  As was the case with one of the bears last year. The hunter assured me it was a good hit so we broke out the sure fire's and went looking.  We were lucky in that we found him dead in a cedar thicket (facing us I might add!) Nice! bear I have a picture he sent me after he mounted it (full mount) if I ever learn how to up load on to here I will show it.  So add the darness and flashlights into your mix as well. Keep in mind that if I think it is a bad hit I will not look to far after dark but will come back the next day.  But if the hit is good I got no problems looking at night with a handgun on my hip.  You may think it's an impossible task but I have done it more than once and know others that do it on a regular basis.  

[Redhawk1]

jeager106, maybe it is just me, but I think it is more your attitude toward big bore revolvers. Your whole way of thing in my opinion is off.  The reason hunters come in contact with dangerous game is, one they are hunting in areas when they are located and where normal joggers and hikers are not. I don't go into the woods hunting to see joggers running all over the place, I hunt in areas far away form that. As far as strapping on a 500 Mag to my hip, do you understand what a back up weapon is intended for? Just as it apply's, a back up. If your primary weapon fails, if you do not have your primary weapon in your hands at the time. From your post I gather you have never been on a drop hunt in camping in the wilderness. The reason I say that is, you cannot have your rifle in your hands 24/7 when living out of a tent in the wilderness. When you get out of your tent in the morning to relieve yourself or just to get up for the day, the first thing you are going to do is get out a stretch and have a look around. You are not going to jump out of your tent with a rifle in your hand looking like John Bausch bouncing around looking for danger. In a tent a handgun is a lot easier to maneuver  around than a rifle. Working around camp, it is a lot easier having a handgun stepped to your hip and not a rifle slung over your shoulder. It is a common sense. I think what irritates me most about your post is your lack of knowledge and your smart attitude. I guess if it does not meat your level of thinking it is wrong. If you don't think a handgun is needed and useless, why do you even come here and post your thoughts, other then to annoy people that do?

[Redhawk1]

Skeeterbaymac, some people don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Some people have never encounter what some of us hunter have. I understand 100% and agree with your comments and life experiences. Great job.    

Like I keep saying the best defense is knowledge, and avoiding danger, but sometimes it comes looking for you.

[Skeeterbaymac]

Redhawk:

  Didn't you take a bear up here last year with a handgun using dogs?  That can be all sorts of intertainment real fast.  If the bear is held up other than a tree.  The dogs are moving, the bear wants out of the area, the guide wants his dogs unharmed.  Yes sir that can be a whole lot of fun!

  Well I got work to do.  You all take care!

[Redhawk1]

Skeeterbaymac, yes I did and it was a blast. I am coming back up this year in September, I don't know if I will go with a handgun as my primary or a rifle. I want to give my 460 Mag a try or one of my new rifles that has not taken any game yet.  

[cattleskinner]

I really try to stay out of these kind of conversations, but I figured I would chime in my two cents.  I understand where everyone is coming from in that if given the chance, a rifle is a vast improvement to a pistol if it comes down to it.  I also understand where redhawk is talking about waking up in the morning, or just doing camp chores, that a pistol is a "always at hand protection".  I believe where jeager is coming from is talking about if you have a pistol holstered, and you are suprised with a charge....are you going to be able to get a shot off before it hits you?  I agree that if you sense danger, you can bet your sweet biffy that I'd have some sort of firearm in my hands, and that you should have the biggest you can shoot effectively.  I just don't see why people get defensive so quickly when it comes to carrying a pistol for defense.  Some people are "naysayers" so to speak because they are looking at it from a suprise/deploy from holster affair, while others are looking at it from a pistol in hand/engage affair.  While I haven't ever been hunting for bear, or been charged by one for that matter, I have a comparison to think about.  Just last night I was taking some bags of feed down to the barn, and a stray cat I've been after for the past few weeks bolted out of the garage, and made it to the backside of the barn(about 30yds) in about 2-3 seconds.  I think everyone would agree that a cat is about the size of the skull on a black bear.  I really doubt I could unholster, and get a good shot off at that cat before it was out of sight(partially because it suprised me).  I do believe that if I had known that cat was in the garage, and ready to bolt out, and I had a pistol in hand, that there is a good chance that I could have nailed him.  Maybe it doesn't make sense to you guys since sometimes I'm not that good at explaining things, but I think you get my drift.  There is so many different scenarios that could occur, for the better or worse, and that's part of the fun is bickering back and forth since that's how you learn, but I hope that nobody gets a chapped behind from the other person's comments.  If it was me though, I would have the biggest pistol I can shoot effectively for back up(for some that's a 357, some like redhawk it's a 500)....none the less,whether I have the opportunity to use it or not, it helps to have more than one option when the crap hits the fan, and just like you plan to do....practice till you are sick of it, and then practice some more.

~~~Amos

[Camel 23]

Cattleskinner,  well said and good analogy.

[Turk]

I’ll use my philosophy on self defense relating to a bear encounter.  “If you know you’re going to a gun fight take a rifle”

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

[jeager106]

I’ll use my philosophy on self defense relating to a bear encounter.  “If you know you’re going to a gun fight take a rifle”

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

Turk: That was my point exactly.
Redhawk: Understand something: If I were in the great north woods where there are things that bite larger than a black fly, I too would carry a sidearm, the bigger the better.

I've been in the far north where there is no civilization, or help, on black bear hunts. Handguns were illegal.
We used 12 gauge 870's for tracking in the bush, but we NEVER did it at night. Just our logic.
One local and very experinced bear hunter tracked one in poor light after he hit it in the chest with the very popular .303.
The rather smallish 200 pound blackie got him first.
He never had a chance to even raise the rifle. The guy got bitten in the head, neck and face. Had the bear been larger it's doubtful he would have survived.
He did survive only because the bear died during the attack and he had help close by but the nimrod was a torn up mess with 80 + stitches just to put his face back on.
I felt almost comfortable with my 870 covering my buddies backside while tracking in the bush.

Redhawk: There isn't a darned thing wrong with carrying the large bore handgun as a back up. My point was pretty clear to most readers that one should not get a false sense of security.
Carrying the gun in a holster is not going to save your bacon if the rifle in your hand failed to stop the agression.
There was no sense of calling me annoying just for taking a different and sensible approach to the topic.
I'd be willing to bet everyone won't agree with your opinions, site moderator or not.
I have seven big bore revolvers, I like my big handguns.
I know the difference between a revolver and a rifle.
The best job for a bear with an attitude is the rifle.