Big Bore Backup?

[Turk]

Here's and interesting article  http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/hunting/biggame/article/0,19912,471417,00.html

Truthfully it would be a nightmare having a 1000 lb. or larger bear closing in on you for the kill.

And before someone responds training, training training that's good but I've seen a couple guys freeze in combat and they were trained.

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

[jeager106]

Here's and interesting article  http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/hunting/biggame/article/0,19912,471417,00.html

Truthfully it would be a nightmare having a 1000 lb. or larger bear closing in on you for the kill.

And before someone responds training, training training that's good but I've seen a couple guys freeze in combat and they were trained.

Turk

Remember to pray for our troops.

Great article:
Here's a quote to make hunters who carry big bore handguns to feel better for having the thing.
Tow biologists are attacked by a 'tranquilized' bear.

"One biologist pulled a .44 and fired four shots at the bear, which quickly beelined for the brush. The pair ran for the safety of the helicopter cab. From the air, they noticed the bear still wandering around, so they darted it again. Upon examining the bear, they found that even at close range not a single bullet had hit the bear."

Yeah I know these biolgists were't you.
We al lknow you would have hit the bruin in the beaner. :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[Lloyd Smale]

best gun to have in an emergency is the one your the most familar with. Under pressure youd better be able to use it fast and correctly. Your better off with a 10mm your familar with then a 500 your not. As far as stopping any animal with a handgun. GOOD LUCK. I shoot big bores alot and have killed quite a few animals with them and its very seldom that any handgun will drop an animal in its tracks and when you get into large animals its seldom a rifle will. Ive whitenessed a couple wild bores shot with 10s and with hard cast they did fine and with jacketed hps ive seen them fail miserably. Ive personaly shot two bison about 1000 lbs with a 500 linebaugh and the first acted like it wasnt even hit and continued to eat until it realized it was dead. The second made at least 50 yards before dieing. A few months ago my buddy shot one with his 500 a calf about 500 lbs and it took 3 shots to put it down for good all in the vitals. Im a firm believer in big bores for hunting but dont expect handguns to majicaly become stopping rifles. Best bet is to use something that has become an extension of your body and comes into battery without you even having to think. Maybe then youll at least put a round or two into it. Problem with my theroy is very few people shoot enough to really have a gun work that way for them. My idea for a gun to carry in a bad area would be one of two. A 45 1911 because thats what i shoot the most and it does work as an extension of my mind and body or a good DA revolver like a 29 smith that you can draw and just pull the trigger. NO safetys or hammers to cock.  Hitting the softball coming at you aint going to happen an animal like that will be on you before you can even aim in most circumstances and the most your going to do is possibly make him veer to one side of you. You most certainly arent going to flatten him on the spot. Best advise is to not be stuppid enough to get into a cituation like that to begin with. Anyone wondering around where there are dangerous animals with just a handgun on there hip and all by themselves is an idiot and the world would be better off without him anyway so i say let the bear eat!

[Redhawk1]

jeager106, I understand completely what you are saying, but another thought. If the bear is on you before you can point your rifle or upholster your handgun and now the bear is ripping you up, don't you think maybe just maybe a handgun on your hip just might be deployed to make a shot or two, where a rifle could not even be considered. People here talk about a fighting chance. I would want that option, but we all don't really know how we will react in a true situation.

Questor, back to the pepper spray  for one minute. What are you going to do with your pepper spray in strong wind?  There was a story in one of them gun rags about a guy that had a bear coming up a tree to get him, he sprayed pepper spray and the wind blew it back up into his face. Now what, you are now blind and have a bear still coming to get you, you better hope that bear has a good sense of humor and fall out of the tree laughing.  :-D  But seriously, a bullet does not get affected by the wind.

[Redhawk1]

Best advise is to not be stuppid enough to get into a cituation like that to begin with. Anyone wondering around where there are dangerous animals with just a handgun on there hip and all by themselves is an idiot and the world would be better off without him anyway so i say let the bear eat!

So I guess us guys that hunt black bear with handguns are a bunch of idiot's? And I guess if you are a bow hunter and hunt bear (censored) also, according to Lloyd Smale. You don't have a rifle and there for an idiot.  :-D Am I just reading into this Lloyd Smale.  

[Feldhege]

...  There was a story in one of them gun rags about a guy that had a bear coming up a tree to get him, he sprayed pepper spray and the wind blew it back up into his face. Now what, you are now blind and have a bear still coming to get you, ....

And your are now Seasoned to taste!  :shock:  :shock:  :eek:



Robb

[cattleskinner]

These arguments if applied to reality all come down to how lucky you are.  I've hunted a fair amount with, and shot a ton more with a handgun.  A handgun no matter how big it is is still a pretty poor "stopper", and for that matter, so is a rifle, it is just that under pressure, a rifle with be easier to shoot accurate for those less familiar.  Point in question...look at training a younger shooter...you have to remind them constantly to have muzzle awareness, while with a rifle it is harder for them to point it at something they don't want it pointed at without them noticing.  The rifle has more points of contact to the body, and is therefore steadier when shooting compared to a sidearm.  Am I advocating not carrying one? Heck no!  Like I said, it helps to have more eggs in your basket.  And I sure as heck wouldn't want the pepper spray getting blow into my face either...been sprayed with oc, and cs, and both truly suck to get hit with, then on top of that have a large carnivore after you.....doesn't sound like my cup of tea.  It all comes down to how lucky you are...are you going to see the attack coming? Are you going to be able to shoot your sidearm with a wounded elk going through the timber?  We can hash, and re-hash these discussions all day long about why one firearm would be better than the other in a shtf situation, but ultimately it comes down to practicing with what you are going to carry in as many situations you can think of, as much as you can.  No one weapon is going to be the best, but at times all you have is a handgun(in which you should use the biggest you can), or others is a rifle(which is better than a pistol if you can use it).  It comes down to will you be prepared by having that rifle up, or pistol out of the holster, and then will you be ready to making a INCAPACITATING shot...a miss with a big gun is still a miss(whether a rifle or pistol or pepper spray).  Just try to cover your back side by being careful.....Murphy is always out there :wink:

~~~Amos

[Redhawk1]

Very true cattleskinner.  

[jeager106]

jeager106, I understand completely what you are saying, but another thought. If the bear is on you before you can point your rifle or upholster your handgun and now the bear is ripping you up, don't you think maybe just maybe a handgun on your hip just might be deployed to make a shot or two, where a rifle could not even be considered. People here talk about a fighting chance. I would want that option, but we all don't really know how we will react in a true situation.

NO. I don't think it would matter much at all.
I think you would likely get chewed up before you could get a 'stopping' shot into the critter.
In the case of brwon/griz that can weigh upwards of a thousand pounds, I doubt you would be able to unholster and shoot with a thousand pounds of brown cuddly love bear crushing your neck with a single bite.
The reality is that if a bear is ON you you is in really deep doo-doo.
Thats the reality. No handgun is likely to save your life while your being chewed on.
Ergo my wording about the handgun being a false sense of security.
Would I carry a handgun in bear country where legal?
YES. There is a lot to be said for 'feeling' better and I would at least like the opportunity to give the bruin a parting shot.
Who knows I might get lucky.
I have nothing against carrying a backup handgun.
It's the false sense of security that interferes with good sense that I question.

[Lloyd Smale]

I personaly dont count blackbear as dangerous animals. More people are killed every year in the us by deer then black bear. It takes another pretty stupid person to get in trouble with a black bear. I do hunt with a bow for deer and bear and have shot my share of both. In most cases the bear were easier to put down then a deer. When most people speek of dangerous game in the US there refering to brown bear which is a different set of rules altogether then black bear and a lot tougher to discourage with a handgun. Like i said if you saw the way a bison reacts to a hit with a 500 or 475 linebaugh youd think twice about feeling comfortable with a handgun on game that weights about the same and can eat you.

Best advise is to not be stuppid enough to get into a cituation like that to begin with. Anyone wondering around where there are dangerous animals with just a handgun on there hip and all by themselves is an idiot and the world would be better off without him anyway so i say let the bear eat!

So I guess us guys that hunt black bear with handguns are a bunch of idiot's? And I guess if you are a bow hunter and hunt bear (censored) also, according to Lloyd Smale. You don't have a rifle and there for an idiot.  :-D Am I just reading into this Lloyd Smale.  

[Skeeterbaymac]

Well  like I said in my first post, "if I suspected I was going to have a  griz problem, I would carry a 375 HH or 45-70" (I did hunt one griz with a M-1 grand once and  they work too!).  

  Everyone has a different opinion/life experiences, that's what makes this web site so good.  Rifles are better than pistols no doubt to that we all agree. But I know what has worked for me and worked for many I know. Heck my neighbor is 90 ++ and he has told me more than once about killing black bears with a 38-40. Once I believe in the early 40's,  he said one charged him and his wife on the side of a mountain, running down hill. He was armed with his 38-40 and his wife had a .22 cal. He stopped it less than 10 paces short of them. His wife managed two hits one in the nose and one in the front leg with the .22 . He said that he was tickled pink cause she (his wife) stood her ground right next to him.  The man is the most honest man I know and has made a living in the woods his whole life his wife also confirmed the account.  

  I can not even count the times I have encountered black bear with just a revolver in my hand.  I have lived in bear country most of my life.  I was honestly kind of shocked when folks started relating their stories about not being able to kill or route  agressive black bears with a pistol (read griz as a different story).  Most of the folks I know right around my place  kind of think it's no big deal to use a pistol for bear protection or to kill one with one.  :?  So for now I will keep walking around the woods with a revolver and I will keep killing black bears with it.  Guess we up here have been real lucky all these years or our bears die easier!  

Traderjack:  Good luck with your Elk hunt!  

[Skeeterbaymac]

Your right Lloyd I have always looked at them (black bears) like they are over sized racoons.  They sure act like it when they get into the trash can near the garage or rip down my bird feeder :grin:  They will charge when wounded or cornered, like a racoon, woodchuck or anything else.  

[Redhawk1]

I personaly dont count blackbear as dangerous animals. More people are killed every year in the us by deer then black bear. It takes another pretty stupid person to get in trouble with a black bear. quote]

In my opinion it is a stupid statement to say black bear are not dangerous.  Go ahead and take them lightly and you may be one of there next meals. Just what makes you so smart?? :roll:

[jeager106]

This is just my persnal opinion which I'm entitled to same as you are entitled to yours.
I have been to the far north 5 times for black bear.
I only had one opportunity for a shot at a decent bear, a 300 pound boar.
We hunted over bait and it was not very fulfilling to whack a bear at 40 yards from a tree stand.
I have no desire to slaughter another critter like that and I have never gone back.
I will say that in the 5 straight years I hunted the far north I know of 3 incidents where seasoned locals got the big chomp from blackies.
I dunno, maybe they were exceptionally stupid Canadians but I could not say that about people. That is just plain mean.
All I know is that all 3 were trailing wounded bear and all three got chewed, but survived.
I know nothing more than that. In Canada you don't hunt with a handgun, all three chomped Canuks had a rifle in hand when swatted.
Beats me how or why.
Our outfitter advised us to NEVER track a wounded bear alone and ALWAYS take a back up in the form of another hunter with an 870 loaded only with Brenneke slugs.
We did just  as instructed, never had any encounters, so I can't commnent.
Our outiffter took bear evey year with a Winchester lever in .32 Spl.
I took mine with handloads in 45-70, one shot, case closed.
My buddies all used .300 magnums and one a .338.
The guy with the .338 lost TWO in one hunt, the others with the .300 mags never took a bear with one shot.
That's anecdotal and hardly enough facts to draw conclusions but if I were to ever go back to hunting black bear I'd take the 45-70.

[Redhawk1]

jeager106, you are correct. If you don't like to hunt bear over bait any longer, that is fine by me. Just as long as you don't criticize other if they desire to do so. I don't like to hunt wild boar anymore with dogs, it is just not for me, but I will never tell someone it is wrong and that they should not do it. I know you never mentioned this, but I was just making a point.  

[DirtyHarry]

jeager106, I understand completely what you are saying, but another thought. If the bear is on you before you can point your rifle or upholster your handgun and now the bear is ripping you up, don't you think maybe just maybe a handgun on your hip just might be deployed to make a shot or two, where a rifle could not even be considered. People here talk about a fighting chance. I would want that option, but we all don't really know how we will react in a true situation.

I agree 100%, it's all about giving yourself options. I don't understand the thought process of people who don't get that.. :roll:

[Lloyd Smale]

tell ya what pal ive lived all my life in an area that has ALOT of black bears there in my yard every year. Weve chased them out of the garage getting into the garbage before and my neighbors wife has chased them off her deck with a broom. Any animal wounded is dangerous! But I get a kick out the walter midy types who think there black bear hunting is some kind of dangerous game hunt. Id be more leary of a strange dog near my house then a black bear. It isnt much differnce then the kick i get out of wild bore hunting guides trying to hype them as some kind of dangerous game hunt. I hunt them regularly at my buddys pig hunting opperation to cull the ones he doesnt want breeding and were kicking them in the ass to get them out of the gut piles of the ones we shoot. Again a wounded one is a differnt proposition and wounded and cornered they can be dangerous. But so is a raccoon! _http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2006/03/batf-jihad-against-custom-gunsmths.html "What makes me so smart" Pal i never claime to be smart but theres a few people here that know me personaly and what i post i post out of actuall experience and I do have a few more handgun kills then some of the people here do and I shoot more handguns then about anybody here and have a little experience as to what works and what doesnt. Its experience that ive personaly witnessed not something ive read or have been told. Ive hunted bear from blinds hunted them with dogs and hunted them on foot and have been involved with many many bear hunts and kills and ill stand behind what i wrote.  

I personaly dont count blackbear as dangerous animals. More people are killed every year in the us by deer then black bear. It takes another pretty stupid person to get in trouble with a black bear. quote]

In my opinion it is a stupid statement to say black bear are not dangerous.  Go ahead and take them lightly and you may be one of there next meals. Just what makes you so smart?? :roll:

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale, I can see we will disagree until one of us die's. So I guess for me it is a done subject with you. No use trying to discuss something with someone that knows it all and has done it all. Maybe one day you will win the Darwin award to go along with all your superior knowledge and experience.  :bye:

[jeager106]

jeager106, you are correct. If you don't like to hunt bear over bait any longer, that is fine by me. Just as long as you don't criticize other if they desire to do so. I don't like to hunt wild boar anymore with dogs, it is just not for me, but I will never tell someone it is wrong and that they should not do it. I know you never mentioned this, but I was just making a point.  

Gee whiz Redhawh, I'm underwhelmed you approved of my posts. :roll:
So I never metioned others shouldn't over bait and I won't, but why would you bring it up?
Are you a moderator or a writers critic?
I've been here a few times, very, very few lately and you have cracked my ass three times.
What's up with that???

[Redhawk1]

jeager106, we always don't have to agree to have a discussion. My buddies and I get together all the time and talk about guns and hunting. A lot of times we don't agree for whatever reason and we give each other crap, but being in a open forum it is harder to tell the persons expressions and true feeling, and just by reading you really don't get the other persons natural expressions. So some things get taken out of content. I am sure if we were all sitting in a room and having this discussion it would turn out different, and we may still disagree but we would move on without someone's feelings getting hurt.

[sbone]

while I agree black bears in general are very timid, here in wisconsin there are about 1-2 incidence a year with bears that I know about.   This past oct. a hunter in a ladderstand had a sow climb to the top rung with him yelling and the he shot her. (oct. T zone hunt). About 5-6 years ago a boy scout was pulled out of his tent, and there were three other attacks that year.(that is the most I can recall in one year)  I really don't know of a death from a black bear in WI. I will say this , they are more common in the last 10 or so years because of increasing population.  I don't know  how  they clasify a bear being shot climbing your treestand, is it an attack even though he didn't touch you? I do know they were investigated and cleared by the DNR.

[Redhawk1]

I personaly dont count blackbear as dangerous animals. More people are killed every year in the us by deer then black bear. It takes another pretty stupid person to get in trouble with a black bear. I do hunt with a bow for deer and bear and have shot my share of both. In most cases the bear were easier to put down then a deer. When most people speek of dangerous game in the US there refering to brown bear which is a different set of rules altogether then black bear and a lot tougher to discourage with a handgun.

[/quote]

Lloyd Smale, can you give me your references to your clams. We are talking bear in the wild and deer in the wild, not a pin raised deer. Show me one static of a deer killing a hunter and eating him, there are a lot more black bear attacks than you think. Also hog hunting, from what you wrote, I take it you were talking pin raise hogs not wild boar. Big difference. It just amazes me how people will take black bear so lightly.

[Lloyd Smale]

aint worth the argument. Ill contiue to post on my actual experiences with guns and animals killed with them and anyone else is welcome to post there opinion no matter where it comes from. ITs a free country. All i know for sure is ive lived around them and hunted them all my life and aint be ate yet even though apparently im a dumb sob that dont know what im talking about. Someday ill have all the experience that some here have and maybe then ill be a little more intelegent. Hell i cant even spell well!!

[jeager106]

WOW!
Moderator WARS! :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
You guys should take this offline or learn to behave yourselves.
I've never heard of a deer eating a human but here in Ohio a wildlife jouranlist was gored and killed by a buck several years ago.
There have been plenty of black bear attacks against humans and a few, very few, cases of blackies eating people.
They don't eat near as many people as moderators here do!.
GB, where are ya!?

[Lloyd Smale]

rehawk i tried to find the sorce that backed up what i said about whitetail atacks but cant find it. I dont remember where i read it but if i cant find it i shouldnt have said it and appologize. I did find this quote though and with this im done with this post. Im going shooting

Environmental News Script
by Kevin O'Donnell
 September 10, 2000

This past May, a hiker in the Great Smoky Mountains National park
-- along Little river trail, near Elkmont campground -- was
apparently attacked and killed by a 111-pound female black bear and
her 40 pound yearling.

The tragic incident was widely reported in the news media, along
with the disturbing detail that the bears had, indeed, eaten parts
of the hiker's body.

But it's important to keep this incident in perspective.  Black
bear attacks on humans -- especially fatal attacks -- are extremely
rare.  This incident was the first deadly black bear attack in the
sixty-six-year history of the park.  It was the first EVER in the
southeastern united states.  And, in all of North America, only 43
black bear mauling deaths have ever been recorded.

[corbanzo]

Yeah, we've had plenty of blackies in our trash, and most of the time, they aren't out the get you, but in an instance where they are scared, mad, hungry, curious, etc.  they can be extremely dangerous.  Many years ago, my father was treed by a black bear, he threw stuff at the bear, the bear wouldn't leave.  After a while of this, and the bear not letting up, he ended up shooting and killing the bear with a .44mag.  It was a black bear, and it wasn't going to leave until it got him, but he ended up getting the bear.  I was fishing last year on the upper russian river, and met up with a black bear, he was going my way, I was going his.  12 gauge ready, I had to get big and yell at him to make him change course, because he was interested, and kept coming towards me after seeing me.  Bears are solitary, and don't like company, that is why they mainly stay away from people, but there are the instances where attacks happen.  Saying that black bears aren't that dangerous is just plain stupid.  I actually am more worried about moose than bears, cause they are easy to piss off, especially in rut.  You can't compare the number of deaths to different animals, because the simple truth is, they happen, people DIE, 4 or 45, doesn't matter to me.  You can take your article, and show it to the family members of those 45 people who died, and tell them bears aren't dangerous.

[Lloyd Smale]

geez you guys are touchy. I never said bears are not dangerous i said that any animal can be dangerous. Espcially if your stupid enough to wound one or get near its babys or corner it. What i said is if you consider bear hunting dangerous then whitetail hunting moose hunting elk hunting raccoon hunting ANY HUNTING can be considered dangerous. Hell walking your dog is dangerous. Id bet more family dogs hurt people every year then every other animal combined. But i still say dangerous game hunting in the US is limited to Brown and Grizzly bear. Im an electical lineman by trade and consider what i do everyday for a living alot more dangerous then going in the woods wheres theres bears! I guess some people just live a more sheltered life and have a different idea of what constitudes danger in there lives. Guess ill have to start issuing 12 guages to the grandchildren playing in the back yard and next time im in the woods ill Rambo up strap on a couple of my linebaughs and maybe an ar10

[Camel 23]

Lloyd Smale, I can see we will disagree until one of us die's. So I guess for me it is a done subject with you. No use trying to discuss something with someone that knows it all and has done it all. Maybe one day you will win the Darwin award to go along with all your superior knowledge and experience.

Redhawk1 couldn't even wait one full hour before he had to stir the pot some more.  I'm sure there are plenty of bear in Delaware that go around unprovoked attacking people but it sure doesn't happen around here.  Another statistic I remember reading was more people are killed by vending machines falling on top of them then there are people killed by lightning.  Why lightning you ask?  For every one person attacked by a bear there was 300 people killed by lightning.  Maybe in Delaware vending machines are considered dangerous game too.

My experience with black bear backs up what Lloyd has said.  You would have to do something pretty stupid to get into trouble with a black bear and I truely wish I had half of the knowledge and experience that Lloyd does.

[Redhawk1]

rehawk i tried to find the sorce that backed up what i said about whitetail atacks but cant find it. I dont remember where i read it but if i cant find it i shouldnt have said it and appologize. I did find this quote though and with this im done with this post. Im going shooting

Environmental News Script
by Kevin O'Donnell
 September 10, 2000

This past May, a hiker in the Great Smoky Mountains National park
-- along Little river trail, near Elkmont campground -- was
apparently attacked and killed by a 111-pound female black bear and
her 40 pound yearling.

The tragic incident was widely reported in the news media, along
with the disturbing detail that the bears had, indeed, eaten parts
of the hiker's body.

But it's important to keep this incident in perspective.  Black
bear attacks on humans -- especially fatal attacks -- are extremely
rare.  This incident was the first deadly black bear attack in the
sixty-six-year history of the park.  It was the first EVER in the
southeastern united states.  And, in all of North America, only 43
black bear mauling deaths have ever been recorded.

This is what I am talking about, Lloyd and I can have a disagreement even maybe get heated but in the end, I respect he took time to look for information. We all don't have to agree to have a discussion and in the long run we all may learn something.  

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1 couldn't even wait one full hour before he had to stir the pot some more.  I'm sure there are plenty of bear in Delaware that go around unprovoked attacking people but it sure doesn't happen around here.  Another statistic I remember reading was more people are killed by vending machines falling on top of them then there are people killed by lightning.  Why lightning you ask?  For every one person attacked by a bear there was 300 people killed by lightning.  Maybe in Delaware vending machines are considered dangerous game too.
.

Camel23

Lloyd is a big boy and can defend himself well, as he has proven, no need for you to have to come this his rescue here.

Just because I now reside in Delaware does not take away from where I have lived in the bast. It always seem when someone wants to take a jab at me they bring up the fact I live in Delaware.  :?  What does that have to do with my hunting experiences? I travel out of State every year to different States to hunt different animals. Some times twice a year. Sure we don't have bear here in Delaware, we also don't have Cape buffalo and I don't need to have them in my back yard to determine if I think they are dangerous or not.

Delaware vending machines are considered dangerous game too.  I once got a bad cut on my finger from one, but I dropped it with one shot from my 2 inch 600 Mag.  :-D