Big Bore Backup?

[Redhawk1]

Oops double post. Could not delete.

[corbanzo]

I personaly dont count blackbear as dangerous animals.

geez you guys are touchy. I never said bears are not dangerous

WHAT??  Oh, and I know a few people who have been in trouble with black bears, including a couple family members.

It takes another pretty stupid person to get in trouble with a black bear.

So, thanks for that comment.

And you can't compare bears to lightning.  Bear attack is a semi-preventable cause of death, that is why we carry guns for them.  If you can find something to stop lightning from killing you, I'm sure there would be a lot of people interested.  And freak accidents such as getting killed by a vending machine doesn't count either.  Normal people know that a bear, which is bigger, stronger, and has the tools to kill is intrinsically dangerous, and the fact that I go outside, I am accepting that danger, just like anything else, such as tripping over the curb and hitting my head.  We never said that bears are freakishly dangerous, I just want to point out, that through preparation, we can help to lessen that danger.  Lloyd: as a lineman you should appreciate more than anyone safety gear, and the proper preparation, just as is necessary with bears, and as you say, any type of hunting.  When I go out in the dead of winter, I still carry my .454 in case of moose.  And lots of people don't know this, but bears aren't true hibernators, if it gets warm out, or something disturbs them, they can get up, go mess around, and go back to sleep even in winter.

[Camel 23]

Redhawk1,  I was not taking a jab at you or your state as much as I was bringing up the fact that there are a lot more bears in the areas that Lloyd and I live in.  Maybe being born and raised in an area that has high numbers of black bears we look at them a little differently than those who live in areas with no bear population to speak of.  You travel to areas that have some bear once or twice a year I am in a bear area whenever I leave my house.

And I know Lloyd does not need anyone to come to his recue.  If there is anyone here who can defend himself Lloyd is that person.

Corbonzo, sorry to get you worked up.  To prevent being hit by lightning stay inside during lightning storms.  To prevent being crushed by a vending machine don't shake one to the point it falls over on top of you.  To prevent a black bear from mauling you, avoid bears that are really pissed off.  Seems logical.

[Wyatte]

Here's a little tidbit that I found interesting.  This may be a little off topic with the back-up gun theme of this thread, but since we're talking bears, I thought it was appropriate.  I have an acquantance who is a master guide on Admiralty island in Alaska - in fact one of the only  ones there (Jimmie Rosenbruch) - you can do a search on the web for him.  I was talking to him one day, and had mentioned that I had just returned from a black bear hunt on Prince of Wales island in Alaska.  He told me that in his 30 plus years of guiding, it had been his experience that the black bears were somewhat harder to put down, and keep down, than the browns.  That took me by surprise.  He said they had more black bears unrecovered after shots than the big boys.  Interesting.     wyatte  P.S.  I used a .300 Win mag, and we, too, had to do some follow-up in the thick stuff for the one I shot.  A little tense moment for a few minutes.   P.S.S.  I just did a quick search on the internet for Jimmie, and it's incredible to see this guys experience. It's kind of hard to discount what he said, and he's a very interesting guy to talk to about hunting.  He lives in my area part of the year (when not guiding.)

[Heavyhaul]

What I have got out of this thread so far is that I should carry a stick for back up.  I can either hit him with it or prop his mouth open.  If we are talking humane kills, my 243 is nothting even close to being good for whitetails, and some people are takening this WAY too personal.
     My thoughts are that a lightening strike is as avoidable as a bear attack.  Blackbears are a semi-pest that do not attack unprovoked.  We have a couple in PA, and there have been Very few unprevoked attacks in the states history.  But, we still should not be stupid.  How did this post get to this point? What is a humane kill.  If I shoot a whitetail with my 221 FB many people would call that inhumane,  but what would be a humane kill on an elephant or cape buffalo?  Must be a Howitzer. ?   :?     :gulp: I just put the second because I like it.  

[Lloyd Smale]

Well i guess i just cant keep my mount shut. But for one Camel23 lives 45 miles from me in the town i grew up in. The area hes in acutally has more bear then the area i live in. Hes close to my hunting camp then i am so I guess hes seen his share of bear in the woods and is alot more of a casious guy then i am. Im sure he jumped in not because he figured i need backup because he knows me better then that. He jumped in because hes lived around bear all his life and knows the truth. Im sorry if a family member got attacked but id bet if there was a way to prove it that that bear either had a little one somewhere close or was just curious as to what was in the tree. Ive actually had bear start to climb a stand i was in during deer season because the wanted to know what i was. I would guess that 9 times out of 10 yelling at it or throwing something at it would make it depart especially if it were a mature bear. A young one may not be smart enough. I seriously doubt that that bear had your father on it evening menu. WOuld i have shot it too. Probably. Why take a chance. I never guided them but have a close friend that does. Now his and my experience with what it takes to kill them differs from your buddy. Ive allway found that they died easier then a whitetail. If hit hard by a gun they usually went 30 yards and layed down. They never had the run till they die attitude a deer has. Whats it take to kill them. Well the dog hunters up here for the most part use 357 handguns. Im a big bore guy and tease them about what they use as i probably wouldnt hunt deer with a 357 (not that its not capable) i just have to many better guns to use. Ive witnessed two bear shot with 22lf one by me and one by my grandpa.. Both shot in the head and both dropped in there tracks.  My grandpa hunted for i dont know how many years for deer and bear with a 3220 and would kick anyones ass that said his gun wasnt up to the task. He proved it was. Would i use one no. But that old conger put more bear steaks in the freezer then anyone i know. I hunt in an area where the 3030 is still king. Not to many wizbag short mags up here. Most shots are under 100 yards and its a hunting area from way back and most guys grew up with guns and can shoot them. BULLET PLACEMENT NOT CALIBER kills. I would venture a little guess here on your buddys guide service. Like i said my buddy has guide bear hunters for 15 years and for the most part will tell you that 70 percent of his hunters are idiots that cant shoot a gun well. What he gets is guys that dont have the knolege or dont want to take the time to hunt on there own they work in some office make good money buy a gun that looks pretty and have shot enough to sight it in and about half of them have the gunshop sight it in for them and alot of times they come with them just bore sighted and thats a guaranteed recipe for wounding animals. Ive spent a few hours myself chasing wild bores that his clients wounded. This year we even had a guy wound a bison and decided he didnt have time to go and get it. SO he paid and went home. Good for me as ive gotten alot of free meat like that. I think the average guy going after brown bear is a little more experienced hunter and shooter and that would be the reason your buddy has chased fewer of them. What guns do i recomend to deer (and bear) hunters here. Handgun a 44 mag because theres not many that can master anything bigger. Im not talking shooting im talking mastering. Rifles- Ive seen nothing kill any better then the old 35 rem. But ive turned more friends on to 243s then anything. I dont own one because for riflles i prefer the .25s but 243 will kill any deer or bear and you can buy ammo at wally world. They dont kick so people dont devolope bad shooting habbits and ammo is cheap enough where they tend to practice a little more and they have a gun that will cover long range hunting if they happen to go out west. Ive yet to see a deer or bear  hit by a 100 grain 243 thats not been killed. Magnums have there place but its not up here where the shots are under 100 yards. What do i use. A handgun (allways) 41 mag or bigger with hard cast bullets. Its a time that i may even hunt with a linebaugh because i have one and its an excuse to use it, not because its needed. Hell ive used them on little piggys too. Hell ive even used it on those dangerous raccons too Ask your grandpa what he hunted with and if it worked. There was a time in my young days that i hunted with big bolt rifles and laughed at the old timmers and there lever guns. I quoted ballistics and the writings of some gun writers that claimed a 3030 would bounce off of deer and bear. But over the years have had to eat crow to many times. The average bear is no bigger then a human and alot less dangerous but we will arm ourselfs with 9mms and .223s to hunt and protect ourselfs from them. But put bambi out in front of us and we want 300 win mags. Bottom line if i was guideing id smile alot more if someone pulled a weathered old 3030 out of the case when he showed up then i would if he pulled a shiny 300 weatherby mag. Redhawk Im not trying to pick on you i was just surprised by some of your comments. I know your a shooter too and have some experience hunting. I know to by some of your other posts you like me will stir the pot occasionaly. Maybe thats all thats going on here. Well its time to go cast some bullets. The barns about 30 yards from the house and its dark. So just to be safe ill load up the 458 cause ive heard those spring bears can be particularly dangerous.  :wink:

[Redhawk1]

Lloyd Smale, you seem like the kind of people I surround myself with. 95% of my buddies are hunters and shooters. We don't take a lot of crap and just about everyone of them would give the shirt off there back for the other. Yea, you know me well, I like to stir the pot. Sometimes it is good to get it out and sift the BS from the truth. Look forward to many more years with you all here.  

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1,  I was not taking a jab at you or your state as much as I was bringing up the fact that there are a lot more bears in the areas that Lloyd and I live in.  Maybe being born and raised in an area that has high numbers of black bears we look at them a little differently than those who live in areas with no bear population to speak of.  You travel to areas that have some bear once or twice a year I am in a bear area whenever I leave my house.

.

I am sure you guys that live in bear country get so use to seeing and interacting with bears it is no big deal. Not everyone is as aware or have the knowledge to deal with bear as some hunters. My hole point is 99% of the black bear will avoid you like the plague and most can be scared off by just yelling, but it is the 1% that once you get complacent that is going to hurt you. Hunting black bear and just having an encounter with them in my opinion is two different things.  

[Wyatte]

Hi all,  I don't know Jimmie Rosenbruch all that well, he's just an acquantance.  He used to lived around the corner from me.  I helped him move his elderly mother into his new home.  He took me into his game room, and it about knocked my socks off.  I saw animals in there that I had never seen before.  It looked liked a mini Cabela's.  He has since opened a very nice wildlife museum here in St. George, Utah for the public,  displaying his trophies.  One thing I did learn from him is, he's not much of a gun nut.  He told me that his guns are just his tools.  I thought he would have a huge collection, but not really.  Search his name on the web.  It's just kind of interesting.  He also has a bear hunting video out called "Silent Stalkers of the North."  It's got some good footage of some of his bear hunts.      wyatte  P.S. In the video, one smaller female hunter takes a nice brown bear with a 454.  Pretty impressive watching her master that!

[Camel 23]

I'm glad to see that everything has calmed down today.  Sorry if I offened anyone during yesturdays discussions.  I get a little worked up at times. :wink:

[corbanzo]

That is why I like the GBO, it would get boring if people werent opinionated!  I would hunt blackies with a lever 30-30 in a second, its a good proven caliber.  Bullets go through black bears pretty easy, well, compared to brown.  A lot of time, bow hunters will shoot an arrow straight through a blackie.  Bears are no big deal to me, I see them all the time, love that fishing, but I'm still with Redhawk on this one.

[sawfish]

Wow.  I was going to post on this thread earlier, but you guys scared me off with all of that "violent rhetoric".  Where is Rodney King when you need him?

Just a few comments not meant to stir the pot.

1.  There is never a shortage of opinion(s) on GBO. (Hooray.)

2.  I have made more than a few hunts for black bear and in my experience they are normally docile shy creatures, but you will occasionally run across one that is very aggressive (or just having a bad day), and shows no fear of man or beast.  Like your lovely sweet wife that turns into a shrieking banshee when you have bought one too many guns, or when you tell her her car has to stay outside because you expanded your reloading bench in her side of the garage.

3.  I would not like to try a 10mm on an aggressive bear at 4-10 feet.  I think you would have more luck with a tube of Preparation H.  However, I do know a houndsman that was charged and knocked down by a black bear wounded by his hunter a few years back.  While the bear was straddling him (and being distracted by the hounds), he managed to get his 10mm out of the holster and empty the magazine into the bear at contact distance.  He told me later that when it was all over he was covered in blood (the bears) and urine (his).  He also said that he had no desire to repeat the experience (the bear charge, not peeing).

4.  I know Jimmie Rosenbruch and have hunted with him and his family in Alaska.  There is no comparison between the average size of black bears in the area Jimmie hunts, and the average garbage scavenging black bear.  He recommends that you bring a minimum .375 H & H for Black Bear.

5.  It is my understanding that pepper spray is banned in parts of Canada, and not permitted on most airlines.  Even in checked baggage.

6.  I like hunting black bear with hounds and I like hunting them over bait.  Anyone who has frozen his butt off in a treestand for 8 hours, or has given up 2 pints of blood to the hummingbirds of the North (Canadian Bush mosquitoes) would consider this challenging.

Just MHO.  Rip away.

[corbanzo]

4.  I know Jimmie Rosenbruch and have hunted with him and his family in Alaska.  There is no comparison between the average size of black bears in the area Jimmie hunts, and the average garbage scavenging black bear.  He recommends that you bring a minimum .375 H & H for Black Bear.

This is the truth.  Where I live, costal southcentral 350lbs is a big black bear.  Down costal southeast, and canadian southeast, they get 500+lbs.  

He also said that he had no desire to repeat the experience (the bear charge, not peeing).

 :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  - All I have to say about that.

[Wyatte]

Sawfish, I remember now after you said that, Jimmie told me too about using the 375 H & H on those bigger Alaskan black bears in his area.  Sounds like a a new excuse I could use to get a new rifle.  "Gee, dear, you know you have to use a 375 on black bears!"  That was quite a few years ago, but it seems to me that was pretty much the rifle he used for everything up there.    wyatte

[Turk]

Thread has changed my mind.

A number a years ago a friend went Black bear hunting and he picked up a bundle of outdated twinkes for the outfitter to use as bait.  I always poked fun at my friend for shooting a bear over twinkes and said I'd never hunt over bait.  Sitting here reading sawfish's post it struck me like a ton of bricks.  It's not ok shooting over bait for bear but it is ok for me to shoot ducks and geese over decoys (I'm a avid waterfowler).  Now how do I justify my waterfowl hunting?  I guess that easy I need to go on a bear hunt  :lol: but not with a 10mm. Iff I use a handgun it will be either a 375 JDJ/45-70 Govt or my 9.3x62mm if using rifle.  

Have a good day and remember to pray for our troops.

Turk

[Lloyd Smale]

hunting is hunting and its nobodys bussiness but your own as to how you do it as long as it follows the law. As far as a 375 for black bear. WHY NOT! Its an excuse to use a big gun on game. It probably isnt needed but I still follow old elmers teachings. Ive never seen where a big bore gun didnt kill better then a small bore gun if the bullets are constructed properly for the game your after. Hell i hate to admit it here but i once shot a whitetail doe with a 458mag and it dropped on the spot and you could eat around the bullet hole. It killed well and did alot less damage to the meat then a normal deer hunting round would have.

[sawfish]

For the purpose of clarification, the main reason Jimmie Rosenbruch recommends the .375 H & H is the terrain where the bears are hunted, rather than the belief that you cannot kill a black bear with a smaller caliber.  This is generally a spot and stalk hunt with the spotting being done from a skiff.  As Corbanzo can attest, the tide fluctuations in that part of the world are extreme.  The bears are hunted at low tide when they come onto the beach looking for crabs or whatever else has been left when the tide recedes.

In some ares, the bears are very close to thick old growth forest because of the steep slope of the shoreline.  Using a big caliber gives the hunter a little margin for error, and may help anchor the bear on a less than perfect shot.  If the bear does reach the timber (not good), the bloodtrail left from a .375 will generally be more visible.  I would have personally have preferred to use my old favorite a .358 Norma, but bowed to the wishes of the guide.

[SJPrice]

Great big pieces of lead moving at moderate speed seem to be the answer when dealing with big creatures with a lot of muscle and fat to penetrate.  45/70, 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 475 GNR etc. or in a handgun, 475 and 500 Linebaughs or 500 WE are the order of the day.  As for me I find it even more gratifying to take game like that with an old timer like the 45/70.

[sawfish]

Note the 45/70 BFR in my avatar.