Immigration

[rockbilly]

:twisted: If the thought of illegals waving a mexican flag in prostest to pending reforms in our immigration policy disturbes you the follow the instructions below.  Let Killer Kennedy and he group know we are not ready to give America away without a fight.l

Dear Friend,

Would you please email this Action Note to everybody you know so they can click the buttons below just like you to send free faxes to the senate?

Most Americans are infuriated by the images of hundreds of thousands of illegal-aliens closing the downtowns of our major cities while demanding their "rights."

The U.S. Senate is listening to the protesters, debating bills this week to give citizenship to all illegal-aliens.

The only thing that can slow Senators down is massive opposition from their constituents. You don't have to take to the streets and shut down our cities like the illegal-alien supporters are doing across the land. You can counteract the massive pro-illegal protests by helping recruit a large internet army.

Roy Beck
President, NumbersUSA
(a non-profit, non-partisan group seeking lower immigration)
 
SEND FREE FAX




 
Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA)
 


 
Senator John McCain (R-AZ)
 
 It won't surprise you that Ted Kennedy wants to BURDEN AMERICA with . . .

. . . 30 Million more Foreign Workers and dependents!!

But did you know that Sen. John McCain is Working with him to
pass the McCain-Kennedy Mass Immigration bill, S. 1033?

The Senate starts debate on the McCain-Kennedy bill this week!

Our inside sources on Capitol Hill say if the McCain-Kennedy bill comes up for a vote, more than half of the Senators now plan to vote for it. Make sure your Senators are not among them!

Click the button below to send a Free Fax asking your Senators to stop S. 1033, a massive immigration increase which will add 30 million more foreign workers and their dependents over the next decade.

SEND FREE FAX


Join with hundreds of thousands of citizens who make their voices heard through NumbersUSA, a non-profit, non-partisan immigration-reduction organization.

NumbersUSA, 1601 N. Kent St., Arlington, VA 22209.

You are receiving this message because you have either indicated interest in
immigration reform, or someone has specifically asked us to let you know
about immigration reform activism.

[victorcharlie]

I emailed my senators a couple of days ago.  No doubt, the republicans are so far out of touch with the people......and the damocarts.....well.....what could we expect from them?

If I was trying to gain entry into the united states legally, and thought that Mr. Bush is willing to provide amnesty, I'd throw my paperwork in the trash and take the first boat over.

Of course, we know why Mexico doesn't do well in the olympics.......as any one in Mexico that can run, jump, or swim is already here!

I say, keep the process as it is, and enforce the existing law.   Let those who wish to come to america submit the paperwork for our review, and lets choose the people who come here.  

It should be a felony to knowingly employ an illegal alien.

WAIT A MINUTE, THAT WOULD MAKE MOST MEMBERS OF OUR GOVERNMENT FELONS!  Didn't I hear on the news yesterday that Bill Clintons driver is undocumented and therefore and illegal alien?

[Savage .250]

Here`s a quote from todays paper," Under Bush`s leadership, Republicans have made dramatic inroads among Hispanic voters and party strategists fret that the immigration debate could  jeopardize their gains."
   So, could one draw the conclusion that Republicans are only interested in votes rather than the security of our country/borders?  Just a question.
  Quoting again," There are an estimated 6 million Mexicans living illegally
   in the United States." Now that`s a very nice block of votes.
  Wasn`t it back in the 80`s that the gov`t gave amnesty to the "illegals"
   because nobody knew where anybody was?  
   Now some years later instead of amnesty, they`ll be issued(maybe) a
   Green Card.  An interesting statement was made that Green Cards can`t be forged!                 Next stop E-Bay.
    Makes you wonder what type of corrective action will be taken next time this is a problem?
    This may or may not be relevant to the original post but it`s in the
     ball park.

[FWiedner]

There won't be a next time.

If Bush, McCain and Kennedy succeed in subverting current immigration law, there will be such a mass migration from the south that our southern border will be effectively dissolved.

There will be no keeping the genie in the bottle.

These politicians are betraying both the stated will and the best interests of the American People.

 :?

[victorcharlie]

I'm hearing numbers of about 12 million already......I think about a quarter of them are just down the road in Dalton GA.......

[Haywire Haywood]

They should be closing loopholes, not opening them.  For instance, as law currently stands, if an illegal couple can get across the border 9 mos pregnant and have a kid at a free clinic, the kid gets american citizenship. Now since you can't deport an American citizen and you can't seperate the parents from the child, the illegals get a free ticket.

Any child born of 2 illegal aliens should also be an illegal alien.  It's flippin' ridiculous.

And I heard Kommifornia is wasting money letting illegals into the public school system and issuing them driver's licenses... The whole concept is insane.    

Ian

[Savage .250]

TM7:
     I can hear the "splashing" already as the people (criminals) who just want our lousy jobs cross the borders on their way to Detroit.  
     Next thing you know they`ll be running the streets  demanding better working conditions, oops........ now their in a union.  Life is good.
     Fox news reported that Mr Fox, Presidenty of Mexico has just about stopped all illegals from entering Mexico from the south but said he can`t stop his people from leaving and they are leaving in droves!
    The only conclusion one can draw is that Mexico has no lousy jobs.
    Go figure.

[rockbilly]

Just keep on writing them letters, pray, and stock up on ammo.  You may need it before a workable agreement is reached on this issue.

I have no problem with legal immigration, but I am convinced the illegals will be the decay that brings this country to it's knees.  It appeares to me that most of the immigrants don't want to contribute to America, yet they stand in line with their palms up for medicare, welfare and food stamps.  I just can"t understand why so many have kept their heads in the sand and let it progress to this point.  :eek:

[Daks]

Stock up on ammo? Why? To shoot someone?  

Most studies I've read indicate that illegal immigration is nowhere near the boogeyman others fear. When I hear things like worrying about "national identity", I hear overtones of racism. Keeping the nation pure for folks like "our kind" is lurking somewhere in the shadows when those types of phrases start being muttered. This is a general observation not directed necessarily at anyone in particular.

Yep, illegals take away the lowest-paying jobs but only in some areas of the country. Other areas have those same lousy jobs for anyone who wants them. That indicates that illegals aren't taking jobs away from Americans overall, but only in certain jobs in certain areas of the country. Also, illegals spend money so they are helping to create jobs as well. Overall, the net effect is negligible.

[nomosendero]

:eek:    

[Daks]

Believe me, nomo. I have the same reaction when I read just about any of your posts. I like you just about as much as you like me, so as they say, "the feeling is mutual."

In case you are interested in actually hearing another viewpoint instead of simply ridiculing others, you might want to check out NPR. Their "Weekend" edition just had a pretty good segment on the pros and cons of illegal immigration and the effect it has on the economy. It is more fun to engage in xenophobia but now and again, someone actually tries to measure the things we seem to take for granted as being true. And in this case, the results don't correspond with our prejudices.

But hey, don't let that stop you.

[Daks]

Actually, it is not nearly as far away as you might think. In the 200 years before the beginning of the Second World War, German nationalist writers used that phrase to exclude Jews from being German. The object was to instill a sense of national unity through shared identity by excluding those that Germans considered undesireable. That morphed into rabid and universal German anti-Semitism with the results coming about the middle of the last century.

The phrase and the concept behind the phrase being used here is directly comparable to that period of rising German nationalism.

So I disagree that it is not somehow racist in overtones. Historically, your observation is inaccurate.

"Indigenous people have a right to their identity and enforcement of existing laws of the land." Hmm, that's why we are all speaking the local Indian dialect and following Indian customs, right?

[victorcharlie]

Those who broke the law by entering the country illegally should be rounded up and sent back where they came from.

We are a country of laws and like them or not I do my best to obey them.

If a foriegner wants entry to this country there is a system in place to do this legally.  You want access then fill out the paper work and wait your turn.  

Ignoring this is a slap in the face of those who enter legally.  Why do things right if the reward is amnesty?

It's pretty simple to me.  Your here legally, or your actions are criminal and the law should be enforced.

[Daks]

Regarding the opinions of the folks you mention as disagreeing with my statement, they and you might want to read the following: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900

If nothing else, it should expose you to a different side of the story. This issue isn't as clearcut as it seems. Nothing says you have to agree with the link I posted, of course, but it should show that there are valid differing opinions on this.

[Daks]

It is true that we are a nation of laws. However, we also are a nation that makes its own laws instead of blindly following laws that we consider unjust. If the law changes to allow amnesty, then THAT will be the law.

I think you'll still have a problem with that. Why? Because just like me, you are more concerned with what we consider a just solution rather than just following the law for its own sake, especially since we can change the laws now in place as well as enforce them unchanged.

I don't have a problem with someone saying they want to enforce the law. Where I jump ship is when I think that when someone says that, they are not so much concerned with following the law generally as they are using the law to achieve a desired outcome. The test is this: if the law changes, will you still say the law must be followed no matter what or will you say that the law is unjust and should be changed?

I'm guessing you'll want the law changed. And that is entirely cool - that's America. We are more concerned with using the law to achieve justice than we are in following law for its own sake.

[Daks]

Not a bit, TM7. I'm not calling anyone a Nazi or anything like that. What I am pointing out is that the same type of thinking and terminology was used in the 200 years BEFORE the early 1930's in Germany. Many writers focused on first identifying what it meant to be a German and they did so by drawing attention to the "outsiders" in their midst, the Jews. From that, they wrote about the need for preserving national identity and purity. That's very similar to terminology being used on this subject and it is  worth noting.

Being concerned about which way the country is headed is all well and good. Couching the issue in terms of losing national identity and keeping undesireables out because "they" are taking over is a path that has been trod before with tragic outcomes.

Your dismissal of NPR's article as coming from the left ignores the fact that the people you listen to come from the right. What matters to an argument is not the person making the argument but they things they say in support  of a position. You are making an ad hominem argument, which is a logical fallacy.

[victorcharlie]

It is true that we are a nation of laws. However, we also are a nation that makes its own laws instead of blindly following laws that we consider unjust. If the law changes to allow amnesty, then THAT will be the law.

I think you'll still have a problem with that. Why? The test is this: if the law changes, will you still say the law must be followed no matter what or will you say that the law is unjust and should be changed?

I'm guessing you'll want the law changed. And that is entirely cool - that's America. We are more concerned with using the law to achieve justice than we are in following law for its own sake.

First off, I lived and worked overseas, both in the military and as an expatriot.  I have met many, many people who's dream it was to come to this country.  They followed the law, filled out the forms, got visa's, had the required amount of US dollars, and found a sponsor.  Then they waited...and waited.....and waited.......you see, we didn't want them or need them because we already had an illegal filling the spot they wanted.

Second, No, I don't want the law changed.  I want the law enforced.  I want immigrants who have enough character to wait until there application is approved, not someone who cheats the system.

[Daks]

I don't really have a problem with what you are saying, TM7. What I'm pointing out is what it can lead to. It need not as long as we are aware of how it led there in the past. I also don't think it is the stark either/or that you present. Either we have a nation without borders or we (fill in the blank with the social policy one wants). I think there are more choices out there. Presenting a false dichotomy is also a logical fallacy.

To me, the people you cite are either demagogues or right-wingers. Even then, I don't have a problem as such with who the people are but what they say and how well they can justify their positions. From these folks you mention, I hear a lot of generalizations and appeal to emotion but I don't hear a lot of academic study trying to quantify what they are asserting. I think folks tend to listen to people that confirm their opinions rather than challenge them.

Personally, I haven't made up my mind. For me, the jury is still out. I am all in favor of controlling our borders but I'm not in favor of mass deportations. I don't know what to make of all this yet, so I'm on the fence.

[Daks]

That's kind of what I thought, victorcharlie. It isn't the law as such that you are supporting, it is the present incarnation of the law. If it were just the law for the sake of the law that you were supporting, then you'd be just fine if the law changed.

I have no problem with that, by the way. I don't believe in following the law just for the sake of following the law, either. Justice is more important because the law is supposed to serve to achieve justice. It is a means to an end, that's all.

I don't think mass deportations serve that end. I certainly believe in controlling our borders but I'm not in favor of rounding up people and shipping them home. I don't consider that to be justice.

But reasonable people can disagree.

[nomosendero]

Yea, Daks,Whitie is getting ready to round up all illegals & gas them!

Boy, I hope they don't get me! Well maybe not, I am mostly White even though a little brown. I just hope that it's not  Trail Of Tears time again, please keep me posted.

Daks, I don't know you, so I do not dislike you or like you & actually agree
with just a few of your posts, but it is not important whether we agree or not, so I am not worried about your posts & you should not be worried about mine. I will let you keep your dislike to yourself.

But, yes I was at first surprised about that post, wondering how anyone could think that illegal imm. is a non-issue & then I had to laugh for some time after thinking about it & that was the reason for the post. It is funny to me & I even wondered at first if it was a joke, but then I guess not.

Since Illegals are well illegal, we can't be sure how many there are & I hear as low a number as 11 million & as high as over 20 million. So, I wonder at what population of illegals in this country would it take to become that "boogeyman" that you say it isn't, 30 million, 60 million, 100-200 million? You say that illegals are only taking those sub par jobs in certain parts of the country. Well, I have traveled as far North as Chicago lately in the Mid West, Montana in the West & Baltimore in the East & they are in all of those points & all points South. You should have said that
there are certain areas that don't have them instead of certain areas that do & yes I thought that was funny & several years behind reality.
Daks, I know you don't like to talk about where you live, but how can you not know this?

And each time the illegal issue comes up, here comes the old Race Card.
The law applies to all colors & in fact, the Latinos get abigger pass on this
matter than people trying to get here from other parts of the world. To me,it would be the same if the people South of the border were Swedes,
they would be either Legal or not, period. Heck, I look more like a Mexican than a Swede anyway.  No, God made us all, so people had better keep that in mind. But putting out that Race card sure does put the skids to doing anything about the border.

To me "National Identity" means that people who live here should be legal
Americans & Race is irrelevant. If you want to live here, you should become apart of America & not try to make it Mexico. Don't forget your language but learn English. Don't try to fly the Mexican flag at a school over an American flag as was done in an Arizona school this week. Don't come here illegal & say that this is my country now & White people need to leave as has been said alot lately. It is great & I think desirable to allways remember where you came from & retain that culture, but if we live here, we need to remember that we are Americans & be true to this
Nation. It is great to have Pow Wow's each year & teach the old customs,
but we are Americans.
If we move to another country, then we should respect that country's laws
or leave. What is hard about this?

The effect of Illegals is negligible? Tell that to the Southwest where many
Hospitals have had to close their doors due to the free care, tell that to the taxpayers in the South & Southwest who have to have to pay for a bigger infrastructure to deal with illegals at various levels. Tell it to the Southwest prision systems. Many State/taxpayers are paying a very high price.

But to me, jobs & the nagative economic effects aren't the main issue anyway. Homeland Security is a joke without protecting the Border. I
really don't like the illegal Muslims or Arabs crossing with illegal Mexicans either, or illegals from anywhere crossing with them. Exactly why are they coming over? What about the drugs coming across the border? What about diseases, we don't have a Bird Flu issue as yet & I hope we don't, but how would we keep it out if we don't control the borders. How can we
check illegals for disease when we can't or don't keep up with them.

I knew what rockbilly meant when he said to stock up on ammo & so did everyone else, & it had nothing to do with Racism! And rockbilly, I don't know why people have there heads in the sand either, but no matter how
much we stress that the problem is illegals, regardless of color, the Race Card will allways be played. We have a real problem & no amount of posters with Arnold in a Nazi uniform are going to detract me from that.

[Daks]

I've often read you to say "don't put words in my mouth". Well, I guess that doesn't apply when you put words into rockbilly's? He wasn't clear and I asked a question. If you are now speaking for rockbilly, I'll direct all my questions of him to you. Should save some time.

I note that most illegals are congregated in a few areas of the country, though you can find illegal immigrants everywhere. The fact that one can find them in many places does not mean that they do are not predominately in a handful. We don't have very many up by me. But then, we don't have very many people up by me, either.

I view the issue of the Race Card a little differently than you. Each time this issue comes up, the Race Card gets played by those seeking to ensure national purity. That's what is behind many of the appeals to protect our national identity, preserve our nation the way it is. We are afraid of becoming a minority and to unify ourselves against "the invaders", we scare ourselves with stories about how "they" are taking over, soon the place won't be fit for "us" to live in. Heard it when I lived in Georgia in the fifties and sixties but it was about blacks then. Heard it when I moved north into the suburbs and blacks were moving out of the city and white folks fled before them. Been hearing it all my life and I recognize it when I hear it now. When someone recognizes that and calls it for what it is they are accused of playing the Race Card. Interesting twist. When someone starts saying things that might indicate racism, don't expect a pass from other people like me. You call 'em as you see them, I'll do the same. Racists often like to play the Sympathy Card, in my opinion. Just a bunch of poor, misunderstood folks, nothing more. Right.

I note most of your argument is anecdotal, which makes my experiences just as good as yours. I don't see second generation children unable to speak English. In my neck of the woods, bigots got all in a lather when the flag of the local Indian nation was flown at the same level as the national flag at a local public school that serves a high proportion of Indians. Had big meetings on it and people got up and said they had nothing against Indians, they just didn't want the Indian flag flying at the same level as the American flag. What they don't say is that because of various land claims, there is an intense amount of antipathy towards Indians in general. Had this issue come up when Indians weren't being so danged uppity and not knowing their place, we wouldn't have had such a big to do. The flag issue brought out a lot of latent hatred of Indians. I heard members of my own family say things I never would have thought they'd say but they are caught up in the  "us/them" that people on this issue of illegal immigration are tapping into - white folks scared of losing their coveted place in society.  I don't much get excited about flags of Mexico over schools. Been there, done that and as yet, the republic still stands.

As usual, in your rush to condemn me, you accuse me of something that is completely untrue. You apparently missed this part of my post: " I certainly believe in controlling our borders". I think you are setting up a straw man with all your fulminations about homeland security since, if you had bothered to actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I agreed on the basic issue of controlling the borders.

And as usual, you've put words into my mouth though you object when that happens to you. I don't believe I called the issue of illegal immigration a non-issue. That's your interpretation, not mine. I focused on the economic effects and overall, I note that it is very small. That's not quite the same as saying we don't have a problem here. We don't seem to have an economic problem but we sure do have a security problem. If you don't want others to put words in your mouth, try giving the same consideration you demand.

[Daks]

Well, I've been thinking about my last post. Nomo, you and I got into it pretty nasty on the question of entitlements and we are about to do the same here. I think that I'm on pretty safe ground when I note that this seems to be a pattern. I've often read where people say in times like this that they are sure that if they ever met in a bar, they'd probably have a beer together. I doubt we'd feel so inclined.  

So, in an effort to spare the readers of this forum any more unseemly displays of ugliness, I suggest we put each other onto mutual ignore lists. That way, our inevitable and childish bickering with each other won't mess up the forum.

I'll be happy to take the first step. As a matter of fact, consider it implemented even as we speak.

[nomosendero]

Great, it was you lost cause anyway, not mine.  You were the one who heard overtones of racism, that was your statement.

[Daks]

TM, it isn't the desire to control the borders that indicates racism. A nation that cannot control who enters it will cease to be a nation eventually.

What counts is the reason why one wants to control the borders. If it is because we want to keep out "dirty wetbacks", that's a racist reason. If it is to ensure national security, that's not a racist reason.

I think viewing the issue as putting controls on a specific group of people might stem from racism. I'm a lot more comfortable focusing on the issue of border control no matter WHO is trying to cross. When the issue is couched only in terms of a specific group of people, who happen to be different from "us", then I start wondering about racism. My Irish ancestors faced many of the same prejudices when they arrived here during the Great Hunger. It was racism that put signs such as "no Irish need apply" onto many shop doors and I hear that in this debate nationally. Having had relatives subjected to this very sort of thing puts one on alert for it.

I am uncomfortable with any talk of "national identity". We are a nation of immigrants and things change every time we absorb another big wave. We went from despising the Irish for being filthy subhuman creatures to electing one President. We went from denigrating Italians as greasy nicks to putting one on the Supreme Court. All throughout our history, our national identity has changed and here we all are still. Our national identity is in a constant state of flux and trying to preserve it puts signs like the ones my relatives faced back up on shop doors. I've had the benefit of being acquainted with my immigrant relatives on my mother's side. They came from Eastern Europe. They say they heard all the same things we are worried about today, but the nation became stronger by their coming over as a group. Sure, the people already here wanted to slam the door and talked about national identity being lost or "our way of life" being threatened, but now, we don't even think twice about people with an "ovich" or "ski" or "nik" at the end of their names. The country absorbed them and changed and we now have an America that is a LOT different than it was before the mass immigration of people from Eastern Europe. Yet that is now the "national identity" we think of as "American" and want to preserve it.

My how things change.

There is no "national identity" in my view. America is always changing. I think it is a strength other nations don't have - flexibility and the great leveler of opportunity for advancement.

No one is talking about being in favor of uncontrolled immigration. However, I note that there is nowhere near the unanimity on the question of the economic effects of present illegal immigration as you seem to think there is. Anecdotal data is just that - anecdotal. It is an individual impression. In that regard, anyone's experiences are just as good as anyone else's and mine are different from yours.

[powderman]

I have nothing against LEGAL immigration, I'm all for it. The immigrants of many years ago worked hard to make a living, adopt our customs, and learn ENGLISH. We speak english here. I'm sick of seeing some of these criminals cry about their rights. If they want to live and work here, do it legally. Get all of the paperwork done, learn and SPEAK ENGLISH. Nothing wrong with knowing spanish, but this is America, we speak english here. Many, if not most, of the mexicans here have no desire to be Americans. They want to live and work here and set up their own little tijuana. They refuse to learn and speak our language. I saw a man scold his daughter for speaking english to her anglo friend. The girl said, papa forbids me to speak english or associate with you. Both girls cried. No reason for licenses, ballots, etc to be printed in any language but English. Learn it, speak it, or GET OUT. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[victorcharlie]

I think you've hit a homer powderman.  Mexico still thinks they own California, Texas and most of the southwest.  The real plan is to retake the home land.  They won't have to, our politicians are going to give it to them! :x

[Don Fischer]

I think you've hit a homer powderman. Mexico still thinks they own California, Texas and most of the southwest

And you don't? I assure you, they do.

Listened to an intresting deal on radio yesterday. This whole don't throw them out deal started in Valdosta, Ga. Seems that there were 4000 illegals picking onions down there and INS showed up. 3000 got away and 1000 got deported. The farmers lost their crops and cryed to their congressmen and the INS was ordered to lay off. Next, was the packing plants in Nebraska. Same thing happened. This time it was cattlemen and packing plants that screamed. Same thing happened.

Now that was on the radio. KMJ in Fresno, Cal- Ray Appleton show. If you can get him, 12 noon till 2pm- 580am. If you like talk radio,you'll like this guy. They are hot on illegals now.

We don't have an illegal problem in this country, we have a government that doesn't enforce our laws! And unless we first secure the southern border, absolutely nothing we do will stop that tide!

[Don Fischer]

I think you've hit a homer powderman. Mexico still thinks they own California, Texas and most of the southwest

And you don't? I assure you, they do.

Listened to an intresting deal on radio yesterday. This whole don't throw them out deal started in Valdosta, Ga. Seems that there were 4000 illegals picking onions down there and INS showed up. 3000 got away and 1000 got deported. The farmers lost their crops and cryed to their congressmen and the INS was ordered to lay off. Next, was the packing plants in Nebraska. Same thing happened. This time it was cattlemen and packing plants that screamed. Same thing happened. That was 1998.

Now that was on the radio. KMJ in Fresno, Cal- Ray Appleton show. If you can get him, 12 noon till 2pm- 580am. If you like talk radio,you'll like this guy. They are hot on illegals now.

We don't have an illegal problem in this country, we have a government that doesn't enforce our laws! And unless we first secure the southern border, absolutely nothing we do will stop that tide!

[Daks]

To me, the issue of racism is not a sidebar to the issue. It is central to whether one views this as an invasion or one of the many big waves of immigration we've absorbed. (Note that I'm not accusing you of anything here so please don't take offense. I'm speaking generally.) Each of those waves of immigration in the past changed us yet we consider what we now have, which is in part a product of those changes, as "American". What constitutes "American" has changed much over the past 200 years and will undoubtedly change again. The process of change in and of itself does not concern me very much. It is inevitable. What matters is HOW things change, not that they change.

There is cost associated with these illegal immigrants, as you rightly point out. What is missed is the fact that there are benefits as well, including the fact that they represent a lot of consumer demand. Those sorts of benefits seem to be ignored as we focus strictly on costs. What counts is the net cost or benefit. I haven't seen a lot of discussion about that.

I don't see us as having a static national identity as such. I see us as a nation of immigrants who collectively create an ever-changing America. That has happened in the past with much the same sort of worrying that is going on now. We are still here. In fact, we now claim the result of all that change is "America". Yet before that change occurred, it wasn't "America" at all. The republic still stands, though.

I agree that we are definitely on the same page concerning control of our borders. I don't worry about an America that changes so much but I do worry about an America that doesn't know who is coming here and why, can't set up a system to keep people out that it does not want here, or doesn't keep track of the people that it lets in to ensure that they don't overstay their lawful welcome.

[MGMorden]

My Irish ancestors faced many of the same prejudices when they arrived here during the Great Hunger. It was racism that put signs such as "no Irish need apply" onto many shop doors and I hear that in this debate nationally. Having had relatives subjected to this very sort of thing puts one on alert for it.

Not to derail the thread (I actually agree with most of what you have to say), this threw up a memory of an essay I had read recently regarding the whole "Irish racism" thing.  You might want to check it out:

http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm