Immigration

[Daks]

Interesting. Of course, I've read historians stating that the Holocaust was a fabrication as well. Maybe that didn't happen either? I doubt very seriously that one could extrapolate from this article that no job discrimination existed, which is what the point of my remark was.

[powderman]

What part of the word ILLEGALS is so hard to understand??? Granting amnesty to 12+ million criminals is not the answer. What kind of a message would that send to millions of others wanting to do the same thing?? What about the legal immigrants?? That would be telling them that all of their hard work and honesty was in vain. Employers who KNOWINGLY hire illegals should be fined, or even jailed for aiding and abetting. My ancestry is English, Irish, and Cherokee. I doubt there are many here that are not of mixed ancestry, but our ancestors worked hard to establish themselves, Americanize, and learn the language. They were proud to call themselves Americans, not so today. I'm sick of seeing signs, instructions, even ballots printed in spanish and English, because they refuse to adapt and speak our language. I'm tired of accomodating those whose only ambition is to enjoy the perks of America with no desire to be Americans. A woman in LOU almost lost her baby last year, her baby quit breathing, she called 911, and for some strange reason the 911 operator spoke ENGLISH and not spanish, go figger. They traced the call, babys life was saved in spite of the mother. She had been here over 5 years, lived in a mostly mexican community, and made no attempt to learn our language. For immigrants to refuse to learn the language and expect the world to change for them, is rude, and disrespectful no matter where they go. I read last week where especially in kali the mexican flag had replaced the American flag on several universities and high schools. They did it in Arizona too, it was cut down and burned right in front of the ones who put it there. A proper ending for an intruders flag. This is our country, not theirs. Learn english, speak it, or GET OUT. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[victorcharlie]

Yep........

[nomosendero]

TM7, well said, I guess that I am still allowed to agree with someone.

[Daks]

TM7, the benefits come not only from the fact that employers are able to obtain cheap labor. The benefits also come from the fact that these people represent consumer demand. They are buying things and that stimulates production, which in turn involves hiring more people. The consumer demand coming from 12 million or so people is not negligible.

That's why focusing on the costs misses part of the impact.

[Daks]

I ignored the part of your post that speaks of a "genocidal" wave of illegal immigrants. That, I think, is hyperbole, not an attempt at an accurate portrayal of what's happening. It is useful in communicating the emotion of what you feel, but genocide is simply not what is going on.

I don't know that one can claim that an open border policy is a racist act, either. One of the definitions of racism is "racial prejudice or discrimination". I think that worries about preserving "national identity" evidence racial prejudice much more clearly than do open borders. I don't think it is axiomatic that people who support open borders are interested in racial prejudice or discrimination. In any event, I don't think that we can know for certain unless someone can post a verifiable quote in that vein.

Change occurs whether one wants it or not. Change by itself is not a form of racism and stretching the defintion to try to include it as such means casting aside definitions entirely. Powderman wrote about one incident, where someone refused to learn to speak English. Generalizing from that to the entire group of illegal immigrants is a major accomplishment. I have more trouble with advocates of immigrants seeking to accommodate non-English speakers than I do with people who don't actually speak English themselves. I think if we were less accommodating, English would be learned a lot faster by all immigrants, legal or otherwise. It is very difficult to learn to speak English. My grandmother never could master it. Neither could my grandfather. But they didn't expect to have everything bilingual Slavic, either. I think that advocates for immigrants are doing them a disservice by not requiring the adoption of English as quickly as possible.

[Daks]

gen·o·cide    
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

We are not being exterminated. We are losing our status as the majority. Ask the Bosnians what genocide means. No group is being systematically and deliberately murdered by this immigration wave.

I don't understand why the amount that this group sends home to Mexico is an issue. First of all, the amount they send home is obviously not their entire earnings, so there is still an economic benefit that businesses here reap from their spending. Second, if they were not here at all, they wouldn't be sending anything home but they also would not be purchasing anything here, either. What counts is the NET effect they are having economically, not the fact that they send home money. And from what I can tell, that effect is a wash.

I have no idea what you mean by self internal interdependency. Could you explain this further?

Change happens, whether we want it to or not. Our country is not the same America that was here before the influx of Eastern and Southern Europeans. The America that was here for that wave wasn't the same as the America before the big Irish immigration wave. The America that was before the Irish came wasn't the same America that was here before the big German wave. Our culture changes all the time. We are the inheritors of a culture vastly different than it was prior to each wave of immigration. And each time a wave hit our shore, people fretted about losing their cultural identity.

Yet the cultural identity that formed as a result of each wave is now considered "American" and what we must preserve. Somehow, though, we miss the fact that our present culture has been dramatically influenced by each wave of immigration we've absorbed and yet, we are all still here to fret about things.

Political groups in the past have been formed to oppose massive immigration waves due to fears of a loss of cultural identity. Here is a link to one of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know-Nothing_movement

This should show you that your fears are nothing new. The fact that we are still here, doing just fine, should also be noted.

[rockbilly]

:roll: Daks.  I am not opposed to LEGAL immigration, but I can not condone the illegal imigrants.  A large number of them are undesirables that could not qual=ify under the immigration laws.  We have allowed a large number of criminal to walk arcoss the border unchecked.  How many of the MS-13 members can we now lay claim to?  

I spent the better part of my life in uniform defending this country, I refuse to allow anyone to remove an American flag and run a mexican flag up in it's place.  That, in my opinion is cause to justify one arming themself.  As someone else said, a large portion of the mexican immigrants think Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California still belong to Mexico.  Their current president made a comment to along this line in a speech a while back.  


Do what you think is right, but I t5hink I will stay armed just in case......... :wink:

[Daks]

To me, there are two issues going on here. Illegal immigration and loss of majority status. I don't worry about losing majority status. I am concerned about illegal immigration.  

BTW, I took the same oath you did. I'm not ready to shoot anyone over something as inconsequential as flying a Mexican flag. I'd prefer to take the flag down rather than shoot anyone. Gets the job done and no mess to clean up afterwards!!

[powderman]

DAKS. The money sent South is an issue. That is money that could have been spent in American businesses, earned by Americans, or legal immigrants. A lot of them actually draw welfare checks, they pay no medical bills and are a huge drain on hospitols especially in the border states. Our schools are open to them, we of course pay the bills. Most pay no income taxes. Illegals take good jobs too that should be filled by legal immigrants or Americans. They have no business in our schools, or welfare programs, but the dumcrap party backs them, so does the Anti Christian Liars Union. A local commentator commented the other day that he noticed all of the demonstrators demanding their rights, were doing so in spanish. Anybody drops the American flag around here, in front of me, and replaces it with a mexican, or any other nationality flag, I promise you that it will come down, and receive a proper burning. The Irish and German wave you speak of was a different people with a different set of morals and values, something sorely lacking today. They were proud to be called Americans and learn our language. Our nation was better for it. There are radio stations popping up all over America with nothing but spanish spoken, this further encourages these people not to learn the language. I'm tired of America bending over backwards to accomodate these criminals. Again I say, learn the language, speak it, or GET OUT. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[powderman]

I'd like to add something here. There is an ever increasing crime rate since the influx of illegals to our area. A homeless woman slept in her car every night. Walmart found out she was sleeping in her car in a far corner of their lot and ordered her off the premises, it might hurt their image, if thats possible. She drove to another part of town and parked. 8 mexicans drug her from her car, beat, raped, and sodomized her for hours. They of course, were never caught. On the other hand. As I've stated before, I work for walmart. I see a lot of mexicans daily. Most refuse to learn english, being content to yabba dabba doo all day, then get angry because we don't understand them enough to help them. There are others who work hard to learn and speak English, I bend over backwards to help these folks. Some of them are really hard to understand, but they are at least trying and I respect that a lot. One lady had a school list of things her daughter would need to start school, the school made up the list. She spoke english very well, and could pronounce the words on the list, but didn't understand their meaning. I got a support mgr to help me, and we took her list and found everything for her. It was a real pleasure to help that lady. She wanted to be an American, I was proud of her. POWDERMAN.          

[Daks]

The money they send home is to support their families there. I suppose it would be better if those people ALSO came here? C'mon. You can't have it both ways. We don't want them here but we do want their money?

At the time the Irish and Germans and Eastern Europeans and Italians came over, they were viewed as having different morals, lower morals. Different values, worse values. Now that time has passed, we consider them as American as anyone. My how times change!! You assume that they were proud to learn our language but I can take you to parts of PA where they are just as proud to be of German heritage and still speak German amongst themselves. I think you might be putting a rosy glow over the past when you make these assertions. At the time, people said the same thing about the Irish and the Germans and the Italians, etc., that we are now saying about the Mexicans. Nothing new here. And the republic still stands and we are all just fine.

Did you click on the link I gave? The Know Nothings had the same concerns, the same positions that you and others are taking here. Yet we all survived.

BTW, it seems to be Republicans as well as Democrats that are talking amnesty. Bush's "guest worker" program is nothing but an amnesty program so putting this into partisan political terms isn't going to work. The much-beloved Republicans are in it up to their necks. Yet somehow, this becomes another issue to bash Democrats?

My grandparents spoke nothing but Slavic. My aunts and uncles were bilingual. I barely speak some Slavic. My kids only know a word or two.  Maybe it is because I'm closer to the boat than you folks but I see that within two generations of living here, English isn't even an issue. The same will be true here, I'm sure. English is the language of upward mobility and that hasn't changed. Look at the jobs these only-Spanish speakers are getting: the lousiest jobs available. Think that lesson is being lost on anyone?

I listen to French language channels up here in the wild Northeast. More people up here have French in their backgrounds than anything else. Doesn't seem to bother anyone. Can't really see what all the hubbub is about with non-English radio. If you don't like it, change the channel. Of course, you haven't lived until you've heard Blondie doing a French version of "Sunday Girl"!!

[Daks]

TM7, I read my definition slowly and I don't see anyone dying, so I can't see genocide. What I see is fear of losing majority status, an issue that causes me no real concerns.

Reconquista? Modern day plunder? Are you serious? Listen to yourselves. Horrible crimes in NYC probably occurred before illegal immigration yet we focus on them to the exclusion of all others. Read that link I provided - the same things you are saying were all said by the Know Nothings in the 1850's about the Irish. We are all still here. We seem to have survived just fine.

Nothing ever changes, it seems. Same old stories, same old fears.

What you are saying about the "Mexican disaspora" was said about the Irish. Major conspiracy theories, black purposes inferred. Yet somehow, we absorbed the Irish and nothing much happened. Sure, there was a crime wave at the time. That was due to the same problems the illegal immigrants face now: poverty. I think THAT is more a determinant of problems with immigrants than anything else. That and the attitude many here seem to take towards foreigners.

Regarding your worries about the economic effects, I note that your evidence is all anecdotal. Show me studies regarding the NET effect nationwide and then I'll grant more believability to your stance. And I DID answer your question - I noted that the economic net effect over the entire domestic economy is negligible for illegal immigration. And no, I don't employ anyone.

Internal interdependency sounds a lot like isolationism to me. That didn't work in the years before WWII, though many politicians supported the same notions you are espousing. Isolationism is impossible in a global economy and while we might wish it differently, we cannot go back to a rosy-colored past. Them days is done, pard.

Wow, I'm now engaged in indoctrination? Name me ONE society that exists unchanged since its inception. Can't be done, so complaining that people who recognize this are (fill in whatever pejorative label you desire) is silly. Change is a fact of life.

In the same way you see immigration as being used to further the agenda of certain groups, I see your reaction as being typical of OTHER groups that want to use fear-mongering and xenophobia to gain political power. Looks like they are being successful, too.

You claim you don't have respect for ethnic groups who claim persecution yet you are claiming persecution in your own nation? Very inconsistent. You can't have it both ways.

According to the 1850 census, there were over 2 million foreign-born persons living in the United States. The population in 1850 was about 24 million. Nearly 10 percent of the population was from another country, mostly Ireland.  

Illegal immigrants represent, at best guess, about 12 million people. The present population of the United States is about 281 million. That means about 5 percent of the population is what we are talking about.

The point I'm making is that in historical terms, we've absorbed into our population MUCH larger waves than what we are seeing here. Yet, we survived and thrived. The gloom and doom is not likely.

[powderman]

Daks. Sorry to say but, as you said, the republicans are on the wrong track too. I don't see how you can possibly compare the immigrants of today with those of 30-40 years ago. Different altogether. The older ones had respect for America and contributed to the success of our nation. Most today are interested only in what they can get for themselves. There are reports all the time of illegals being on our welfare roles and even getting food stamps. I've seen some of them shop, they buy the good stuff and lots of it. I work every day and can't afford beef. We do buy hamburger to go with hamburger helper. We eat a lot of chicken too. No reason for my tax $s to be used to support criminals, who in many cases eat better than I do. You don't see non english as a big deal?? It is to me, in my opinion, if they intend to work here, live here, and do business here, it is rude and disrespectful  to make no attempt to learn our language, and ESPECIALLY forbid their children from learning and speaking english. People caught doing that should be arrested, jailed, and deported. I read where a United States congressman is proposing that a 700 mile long wall be built with the labor being provided by illegals that are caught. Something to think about. If I lived along the border I'd probably have been in jail a long time ago. They have their fences cut, are robbed, have their barns and homes broken into, and their animals killed. They should have the right to defend their homes and property against these invaders. One rancher said that he sees 15-20+ in groups daily. They used to ask for food and water, now they demand it. Nothing wrong with legal immigration, or speaking another language, but in America, the primary language is, and should be, english. POWDERMAN.            

[MGMorden]

Nothing wrong with legal immigration, or speaking another language, but in America, the primary language is, and should be, english. POWDERMAN.            

I think you're a bit too hung up on this language issue.  Language is a very, very dynamic thing.  You can barely even call what we speak "English" anymore, as it certainly uses a lot of different words.  They're close enough to be comprehensible, but through our seperation and, yep, immigration here, our language has melded into something much different than what's spoken in England.  The same is true for Mexican Spanish versus Spanish spoken in Spain.  French spoken in Quebec is a bit different from the dialect in France, and French is actually an official language in the state of Louisiana, but it's pretty darned far off from "real" French.

Also, go back a few hundred years, and the language then is vastly different as well.  Reading the KVJ Bible or Shakespeare can be difficult for some people.  Go back a bit further to The Canterbury Tales (written in 1300's English) and it's getting very, very hard to read.  Heck, below I've posted the first 20 lines of Beowulf, written in Old English somewhere between 700 and 1000 AD.

   Hwæt! We Gardena         in geardagum,
    þeodcyninga,         þrym gefrunon,
    hu ða æþelingas         ellen fremedon.
    Oft Scyld Scefing         sceaþena þreatum,
5
    monegum mægþum,         meodosetla ofteah,
    egsode eorlas.         Syððan ærest wearð
    feasceaft funden,         he þæs frofre gebad,
    weox under wolcnum,         weorðmyndum þah,
    oðþæt him æghwylc         þara ymbsittendra
10
    ofer hronrade         hyran scolde,
    gomban gyldan.         þæt wæs god cyning!
    ðæm eafera wæs         æfter cenned,
    geong in geardum,         þone god sende
    folce to frofre;         fyrenðearfe ongeat
15
    þe hie ær drugon         aldorlease
    lange hwile.         Him þæs liffrea,
    wuldres wealdend,         woroldare forgeaf;
    Beowulf wæs breme         (blæd wide sprang),
    Scyldes eafera         Scedelandum in.


I don't know about you, but that's completely uncomprehensible to myself.  That's "English" from 1000 years ago though.  The Germanic roots of the language are showing much more strongly.  The Romantic languages (French, Italian, Portugese, SPANISH, Latin, etc) had a definate influence in changing that English into what we speak today.

The point I'm trying to make is that language is CONSTANTLY evolving, and as these people move in, they are going to speak their language.  Over time they'll pick up some of our words.  We'll pick up some of their words.  The languages will meld and after the turmoil passes we'll all be speaking the same language.  It'll probably still be called "English" (assuming we still have the arrogance to call our bastardized version of the language "English"), but it won't be what we speak today.  That's just the way things work, and no ammount of resistance is going to change that.  In 1000 years I'll bet our scribblings will be just as illegible to our descendants as Beowulf is to us.

Amusingly, the country that goes the most out of it's way to protect it's "language and heritage" is France.  You're even forbidden to print commercial advertisements that aren't in French.  Of course they're more worried about English creeping in than Spanish.  When they do this though they're usually regarded as arrogant snobs.

[Daks]

"That explains everything,,,, you are a Globalist and countries without borders are your dream."

Nope. I'm not in favor of countries without borders. You are letting your anger make you say things that are untrue. Three times in this thread I've said I favor strong borders with controls over who enters. Hardly the position of a globalist.

" Must be true because you seem to support all and any immigration, aliens and use of them to secure the one world economic hegemony [like our governemnt] to the deteriment of your own country; and trivalization of the problem while using Straussian Hegelian dialectics via  the race distortment much as your link indicated. "

Not only that, I favor free lollipops to any child under six years of age. You are letting yourself say things that are in anger. As I said, I favor strong borders. I'm just unconcerned with immigration as  such. Historically, we've seen much bigger waves and we are all still here.

"Probably no logic, no data, no evidence will sway you from this objective as you filter information in and misinform outwardly. The Irish being driven out of Ireland by the Englanders has about as much relevance to todays tsanumi assault on this country as a bicycle does to a fish. "

Really? And the fact that the wave of Irish immigration was about twice as large is similarly unimportant? And the fact that your position is nothing new, having been taken by the Know Nothings 150 years ago in response to a similar "tsunami" is irrelevant? And the fact that they were proved wrong, that the republic didn't fall, that is also off topic? Sounds like I'm the one bringing a historical perspective to the discussion while you are running on emotion.

"And  what is your view of history--just some willy nilly accidental freefall thru entropy? Not me, I believe pretty much nothing happens unless it is planned. And this immigration situation is planned because:
EVERYTHING OUR GOVERNMENT AND THE NEOCONS ARE DOING IS PROMOTING THIS ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION"

Well, I guess if I'm to be considered a globalist, whatever that is, I think this statement of yours qualifies you as a paranoiac.

[Daks]

Powderman, I don't think that the immigrants of 30 or 40 years ago have a lot to tell us about this situation. The comparable situations would be the mass migrations of the Germans, Irish, Eastern Europeans, and Southern Europeans. Those immigration levels were as large or larger than the one we are presently experiencing. That is where we should look for examples,  not the piddling amounts that came in 30 or 40 years ago.

And what do we see when we look at those large waves of immigration? Remember some of them were almost TWICE as large as what we are speaking of now.  

First, the EXACT same arguments you and others are espousing now were espoused then. We even formed political parties to express those sentiments - the Know Nothings. The EXACT same problems with crime, poverty, language - you name it. We've been there, done that.

The republic still stands.

Don't worry so much. It isn't anything we haven't seen before.

[powderman]

MGMORDEN. Theres no reason for our tax $ to be spent printing everything in more than one language. I would not mind seeing govt money, yours, mine, spent teaching immigrants english, the legal ones. I'm tired of going out to eat and being waited on, or served, by people who don't speak enough english to get my order right. We should have a common language, and since we speak english here, it should be them that change, not us. Some schools are now requiring American kids to learn spanish. A tyson factory in Alabama is forcing their American employees to learn and speak spanish so they can communicate with the others. A common language is important for business, as well as every day life. Guess I'll have to disagree with you on this subject. POWDERMAN.            

[FWiedner]

.

...150 years ago...the republic didn't fall...

Actually, that's right about when the "Republic" DID fall.

...and the major contributing factors...?

Federal interference in states rights to control their own borders and issues of commerce, and the forced assimilation of a gigantic population of cheap foreign labor, now called African-Americans.

You're right, history is repeating itself, just not the way you say it is.

 :shock:

[nomosendero]

FWiedner
Thanks for pointing that out & yes, that was the first big departure from the Constituition that I am aware of.

rockbilly & TM7
I agree with y'all 100%. I know that is risky stuff as the last time that I
agreed with rockbilly someone said I put words in his mouth. I still don't know what that means.

To a degree the Republic still stands, though weaker & with fewer freedoms for it's citizens than in the past. I suppose to some, we don't have a problem until the Republic does not stand, while others like me
& you guys would rather deal with it now while we still can, I believe that I can make that assumption for many of you without putting words in your mouths, right. Some look at illegals who are now saying that this is their country or run up the Mexican flag, but others don't see any thing like this as being an issue.  I don't think that I have to worry that much
for myself as I am 52 years old & not financially set but headed that way,
no I am concerned about the future for our kids & grandchildren.

I would have liked to have made more comments on this thread, but
TM7 & rockbilly covered it well, besides you can say the same things without the major conflicts.  
I have not been able to get involved in this one much, as I can look at this only during brief stops in our Jonesboro office, my connection is down at home due to the Tornados that hit the area, fortunately my home was not hit, but some close by were. Anyway, I read the later part of the thread today & it is one of those topics where the 2 sides are locked in & that is the way it will stay. But it has been a good read & also a look into
why this will likely not be resolved! Thanks

[nomosendero]

TM7, you had better watch that logic stuff, you'll get you butt fired like I did!  

[Daks]

Well, since the idea that I have a "global hand" was unjustified as I've several times expressed a desire for strong borders, it seemed that you were just trying to goad me into a pissing match. Seems like that's the last refuge for someone whose argument isn't going well.

I've answered each of your points - you just don't like the answers. Show me ONE point I haven't addressed. You make the claim but don't bother to  try to back it up. Put your money where your mouth is.

This last post of yours is just more histrionics on your part - making charges before, presumably, you declare victory and exit the discussion. Whatever fig leaf it takes for you, friend.

[victorcharlie]

Quite honestly Daks, I'm having a hard time following you.  Would you mind stating your position in 5 sentences or less?

[victorcharlie]

I think Daks is just trying to make us think about all the possibilities.  Being all over the board is his way of trying to get us to consider all the angles.  That's what I think he's up too.......and that in itself isn't really a bad thing.

 I can't speak for him....but I do give him the benefit of the doubt as far as motive, which I think is to provoke thought........

[Daks]

I note you ducked my challenge, TM7.

Says about all that needs to be said, don't you think?

[Daks]

Victorcharlie, I'd be happy to restate my position in five sentences. You, at least, seem to be actually interested in conversation.

1) The wave of immigration we are presently experiencing is half the size of similar waves we've absorbed in the past, indicating that the concern about this wave, while normal and also having precedent, is exaggerated.

2) Strong borders are important not for the preservation of "national identity", which is uncomfortably close in terminology to the rise of hypernationalism in Europe in the 1800's, but for the preservation of our national security and our inability to control who comes into our nation is probably the most legitimate fear in this entire debate.

3) Concern about the economic impact of the present wave of immigration might not be warranted as academic studies that seek to quantify the effects indicate that people upset about this issue focus almost entirely on the costs of illegal immigration and ignore the benefits to the economy.

4) Worry about language issues is misplaced as the only jobs only-Spanish speakers can get  are the lousiest ones out there, meaning that the language of upward mobility is English and by the second generation, the children of these immigrants will be speaking English just fine.

Did it in four.

[powderman]

daks. Calling these illegals undocumented workers and a normal occurance is like calling a man who breaks in , beats and robs you, is like calling him a trespasser. 12-15 million illegals is hardly normal. You seem to have a hidden agenda where these criminals are concerned. You need to see the world as it really is. POWDERMAN.        

[rockbilly]

:roll: In my opinion the rally to keep the illegals in this country is a ploy to futher line the pockets of a few.  The onion planter in Ga, the land scaping company in MS, the packing plants in the midwest.  But I must say, while those folks get rich it save all of us dollars by providing a cheaper product.

There are two sides to every story, my concern with the illegal is increased crime, increased demands on services, education, etc.  Is the cost for this equal to the saving?  I think not.  Recently while in VA I ran across a large group of illegals on their way to New York.  

There are hundreds of illegals in New Orleans, local contractors can not get contracts, FEMA is letting the contracts to the companys that employee the illegals.  Here we have born and breed Americans out of work because our government gives the jobs to illegals.

I have no problem with guest workers, work permits or persons that have immigrated into this great country legally, it is the illegals that I am opposed to.  to provide a blanket amesty to those here illegally is a slap in the face to those that have played by the book.  I agree that approving a total amesty would be like opening the door and inviting them all in.

I will fully support a program that document immigrants and pprocesses them legally.  I wish all here legally the best and hope they find the success and happiness they are looking for, but at the same time I think ALL illegals should be deported.

As for my reference to the ammo, you dare not travel along the southern border without a weapon and supply of ammo.  It is common for the border patrol agents to be attack by the gang members that walk across.  If they attack a federal agent,  the rest of don't stand a prayer.  This is not only true along the border, it is true in several of the larger cities throuout the USA.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an un-invited house guest.  Illegals are stealing from, not benifiting America. :x  :x  :x

P.S. Daks.  You never said what part of the country you live in, but if you doubt for one minute that there is a real and present danger as a result of the illegals, then spend a few days with me here in Texas.  I am sure you will agree wene you leave.

[Daks]

Let me refresh your memory, TM7. I challenged you at the bottom of page 2.

"I've answered each of your points - you just don't like the answers. Show me ONE point I haven't addressed. You make the claim but don't bother to try to back it up. Put your money where your mouth is. "

I see you are STILL ducking the challenge and focusing on anything but the topic.

Good luck with that.

[Daks]

powderman and rockbilly:

I've just done a search of this thread on the word "undocumented." I NEVER used that term. Victorcharlie did, but not in the sense you seem to be upset about.

I don't mind being forced to account for my own words, but I do sort of insist that they actually BE my words. I never used the term "undocumented worker". Throughout, I've used the term "illegal" immigrant or immigration.

The interesting thing with the "guest worker" program as proposed by the President is this: it would potentially make all the present illegal immigrants here legal. If that happens, would people now find this issue moot?

I don't think so. I think the real issue here regards questions of losing majoritarian status.