Author Topic: Immigration  (Read 7407 times)

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Offline powderman

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Immigration
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2006, 03:28:21 AM »
daks. A guest is a person that has been invited. You seem to be an educated man, yet you also seem to lack understanding in basic language skills, for instance. The meaning of illegal, invader, trespasser, criminal, guest. Do you employ these people?? Is that your reason for supporting them??? I'd be willing to bet you voted for gore and kerry too. Gotta go to work. POWDERMAN.  :D  :D  :D  :D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline Daks

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« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2006, 05:03:12 AM »
You'd be wrong. I voted Libertarian, as I did in 2000. And I employ no one. Trying to cast aspersions like this isn't going to win you this discussion.

I used the term "guest worker" program because that is the terminology being used by the President for his proposed solution to the problem of illegal immigration. I don't call it that - he does. Hence the quotations around the term. In this thread, when using language I've chosen for describing these people, I've consistently used the term "illegal".

Again, I have to insist that you only dun me for words I've actually used. I'll defend those. But when I'm using a phrase coined by someone else, such as "guest worker" to describe a particular approach to this issue, I'm only describing the program being proposed, not supporting the program itself nor the term being used.

I'd have to ask why you are being unnecessarily snotty. Questioning my motivations or my choice for President is an attempt to avoid talking about the issue of illegal immigration. I don't see how the merits or demerits of the issue of illegal immigration have much to do with whom I chose to cast my vote for nor whether I employ illegal immigrants myself. I had eggs and bacon for breakfast. Does that somehow affect the worth of the argument I'm making? Of course not.

Bringing up side issues such as who I voted for or whether I employ illegal immigrants might give you an idea as to WHY I am taking the stance I am but it has zero to do with whether the stance I'm taking is defensible. Focusing on my motivations is an ad hominem approach and represents a logical fallacy on your part.

How about we stick to the topic of illegal immigration and not my motivations?

Offline Savage .250

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« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2006, 05:36:23 AM »
Here`s a good question.  Why is this a issue now? Immigration has been going on since this country was founded and i might add, long before there was an INS!  Seems like there were no problems then. OK, a few.
   At the turn of the century all or most "new" comers came into this country through Ellis Island where they were checked as to their  health,
   vital family information,etc.  Some were sent back for various reasons.
  Everbody was documented and sent on their way.
   So much for a legal entry into this country. I might add those were very hard times plus the great depression was on the horizon. Talk about low paying jobs.  Funny how the "system" worked for all those many years,
  and don`t forget that was during a major time in this countries growth,  
  immigration wise. Back then you could almost say with conviction...................all present and accounted for!  
   Now by shear numbers( over a long period of time) the people south of the border  have gained entry into this country, illegally and now demand
  more than the low playing jobs that bolster the Mexican economy to the tune of Billions. They want the books cleared of their illegal entry, be made a citizen, and what ever "bennies" are due them.  Seems only fair.
  Just think if they put/spent all the money in AMERICA to help this country plus waved an AMERICAN flag.  Seems like a good idea.
   Bottom line is,for me anyway, The numbers are staggering, nobody knows who`s where so give them a GREEN CARD, Make them citizens,
   and hope for the best.  Besides, they are demanding it.
  Notice, i did not challenge anybody about anything. We all don`t agree on a lot of issues but hey, it`s the American way.
   One last comment. I`m 100% against illegal entry into this country i don`t care what the reason is!!!!!!!!!!

 A caveat:  Some of this is :-D  and some is :x
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline Savage .250

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Immigration
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2006, 07:29:55 AM »
TM7:
     You are correct .
         Did you see my caveat?  I`m sure you can fill in the proper place to
       install the  :-D .  
        If not, no problem it goes next to the green-card comment.
        Trying to be some what politically correct without offending to many
          folks.  Now that`s :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline victorcharlie

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Immigration
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2006, 08:16:05 AM »
The liberaterian party seems to be rethinking it's position on the subject of immigration.  I don't see on the site if this was adopted or not.   From there web site:  http://www.lp.org/lpnews/printer_520.shtml



Quote
-- Issue: The closed but porous border restricts the labor pool, forcing employers to hire illegal workers, while leaving those workers unaccountable to the law. A completely open border allows foreign criminals, carriers of communicable diseases, terrorists and other threats to individual Americans to enter the country unchecked. The current guaranteed access to the welfare system by illegal aliens acts as a magnet for freeloaders to enter the country at the expense of working Americans. Allowing unchecked immigration into our country removes the incentive of foreign nationals to address the problems in their own countries which drove them to emigrate in the first place.

-- Principle: Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human and financial capital across national borders, while protection of the lives, rights and property of our citizens demands awareness and control over entry of foreign nationals who pose a threat to security, health and property. If public property is illegitimate and to be abolished then immigration must be accomplished without trespass.

-- Solution: Borders must be controlled and immigration must be regulated, neither fully open nor fully closed. It should be open to those who have gainful employment waiting or who are sponsored by someone here who will be responsible for them. Documenting the entry of individuals must include screening for health, criminal background, sponsorship by an individual citizen and other concerns, including threats to national security. While this may be administered by government, it must be implemented by private sector security companies.

-- Transition: Programs such as the now-regular amnesties must be abolished as they fortify the existing problematic system. Border security must be upgraded to be able to handle the volume of attempts at illegal border crossing and stop the often murderous activities of "coyotes." Citizenship must be made and enforced as a requirement for obtaining welfare. Immigration must include screening for health, criminal background, international security concerns, gainful employment and financial solvency.


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Offline Daks

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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2006, 09:17:58 AM »
I didn't vote for the Libertarian party because I agreed with their policy on immigration, necessarily. Some things I'm fine with, other things I'm not so keen on. I voted for them because I believe that our government is out of control and needs to get a LOT smaller. To me, that is the big issue facing us, reining in big government and its poking its nose into the lives of all of us. I voted for a philosophy of how to approach issues and the Libertarian party came the closest for me.

The Libertarian party is not a perfect fit for me, just like I'm sure that either the Dem or Republican party is not a perfect fit for others who vote for those candidates.

But who I choose to vote for and why has very little to do with whether the argument I am making is defensible. Joe Stalin wasn't wrong just because he was Joe Stalin and the Devil could probably make a pretty good case for the divinity of Christ. What counts is not WHO is making the argument or WHY but WHAT the argument is and what that person says.

Ad hominem arguments seek to dismiss a person's argument by focusing not on what he is saying but on other points about that person, such as whether he is a "conservative" or "liberal" or "Catholic" or "Protestant". Instead of addressing the argument itself, ad hominem approaches  address the person making the argument.

It is a logical fallacy.

Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2006, 11:38:46 AM »
:shock: First let me state, I am not a raciest, I am in favor of a controlled and documented method of allowing immigrants to legally enter this country, work and return to their home country, or to assimilate into American society and become a citizen after a period of time.

 

I am opposed to any and all programs to allow those here illegally to stay with a blanket amnesty.  In my opinion this will only lead to an increased number of illegals attempting to gain entry because they know there is no penalty if caught, additionally, this would only serve as a slap in the face to the thousands of people who patiently wait to enter legally.  Following are additional concerns regarding this issue:

When this Congress and president blissfully sit by making excuses for illegal aliens in our country, against our laws, against our Constitution--while law-abiding American citizens get their hearts cut out—it’s disgusting, sickening and pathetic at the highest levels of government.

LetÂ’s look at the cost of illegal immigrants for just a few states:

Florida. Analysis of the latest Census data indicates FloridaÂ’s illegal immigrant population is costing the stateÂ’s taxpayers nearly two billion dollars per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated taxes collected from illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to nearly one billion dollars per year. The annual fiscal burden amounts to about $315 per Florida household headed by a native-born resident.

This analysis looks specifically at the costs to the state for education, health care and incarceration resulting from illegal immigration. These three are the largest cost areas, and they are the same three areas analyzed in a 1994 study conducted by the Urban Institute, which provides a useful baseline for comparison a decade later. Other studies have been conducted in the interim, showing trends that support the conclusions of this report.

There are other significant costs associated with illegal immigration, and federal and state officials should take these into account as well. Even without accounting for all of the numerous areas in which costs associated with illegal immigration are being incurred by Florida taxpayers, the program areas analyzed in this study indicate that the burden is substantial and that the costs are rapidly increasing. (Revised: 10/28/05)

 

California:  Californians are clearly unhappy with the state of our state. But our newly elected governor can restore luster and prosperity to California if he has the courage to take the necessary steps -- particularly in terms of immigration.
 
To be blunt, our future will be lost unless we stop California's accelerating population growth. Adding 600,000 newcomers every year to California, essentially all immigration-related, who need housing, health care, fire and police protection and many other costly social services will only exacerbate the fiscal and growth problems we urgently need to solve. Indeed, U.S. Census data showed that immigration was largely responsible for the 30 percent increase in poverty in California in the last decade.
 
Furthermore, according to an analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies, based on Census data collected in 2002, 28.1 percent of the estimated 3 million legal immigrant-headed households in the state and 31.5 percent of the 600,000 illegal immigrant-headed households participated in at least on one of four major welfare programs. The total estimated welfare spending, cash and non-cash, given to legal immigrant families in California was roughly $6 billion, with illegal immigrant families accounting for $850 million in 2001 alone.
 
In addition, at least 400,000 illegal immigrant students are in California schools, each costing the state an average of more than $6,000 a year. Well over 25 percent of federal prisoners are illegal aliens who committed crimes. Many county hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy because of the care they provide to illegal immigrant families. Such costs continue to rise rapidly. How about Georgia? In 2002, they paid out $27 million for illegal alien anchor babies out of their citizensÂ’ taxes at the state level. Illegal aliens receiving public assistance cost them $42 million. Illegal aliens tapped into $63 million of free health care that cost Georgians. Illegal alien convicted felons cost Georgians $15 million for prison costs.

 

Mississippi.   There is no accurate count of the number of illegal immigrants in Mississippi today, but the estimate ranges between 100,000 and 149,000 according to information provided by State Auditor Phil Bryant.  These are the figures he used to establish the cost to taxpayers.

Bryant said state taxpayers are picking up the tab for some $25 million in public healthy care, education and prison cost alone.  It is likely the numbers – estimated immigrants and the $25 million in taxpayer cost – are low estimates.  MississippiÂ’s immigration population – legal and illegal is growing.  Mississippi currently has the sixth most diverse population in America

Georgia   In 2002, illegal immigrants placed a $147 million burden on the taxpayers of Georgia.

This could go on and on, Texas alone spends almost a billion dollars of taxpayer money each year to provide for the illegal population.  But letÂ’s not stop here; look at the increased crime rates.

Following is from an article by Frosty Wooldridge, AmericanVoiceRadio.net. which give data from all over the United States.

“Corruption becomes a mechanism by which Third World societies operate,” Heath Boatwright said. “When you immigrate millions of them illegally into the United States, you create exactly the same lawlessness in our country. They feel at home because so many of their countrymen break the law with fellow illegal aliens that it is a ‘normal’ continuance of their behavior in our civilization.”

Back in Athens, Georgia today, Boatwright lived in South America for several years. He observed how societies operated with an edge toward corruption in all aspects of their people and governments. How can I vouch for BoatwrightÂ’s observations? I traveled for nine months on bicycle throughout South America. I saw what he saw. ItÂ’s not pretty.

When I wrote about corruption in Mexico and other Third World countries, I mentioned that citizens must bribe mail carriers or suffer their undelivered mail. In Asia, you must get your letters cancelled at the post office or they will steal stamps off your envelope. Bribery is a way of life when it comes to the police in Third World countries. When a car accident occurs in Mexico, all parties split the scene. Why? No one wants to be caught because they donÂ’t carry insurance, no licenses, have outstanding warrants or they may be carrying drugs.

To give you an idea of how fast the United States careens into Third World standard operating procedure, in Greeley, Colorado last year, police recorded 270 hit and run accidents last year. Greeley, with less than 70,000 residents, houses the largest contingent of Mexicans in Colorado. They illegally work at the meat packing plant. They drink like fish after work. They drive. With these realities, driving on Saturday nights in Greeley places you in great danger.

In ColoradoÂ’s Department of Motor Vehicles, last year, two Hispanics employees gave over 200 illegal aliens Commercial DriverÂ’s Licenses and hundreds regular licenses. Those illegals couldnÂ’t read a test let alone take it or pass it with their sixth grade educations in Spanish. Yet, they drove on our highways in 50,000 pound 18-wheelers running at 70 miles per hour and were implicated in over 26 crashes.

Colorado suffered three deaths by illegal aliens in the past year. Illegal drunken Mexicans killed two Americans, Justin Goodman and Dale Englerth. One Mexican shot and killed Officer Don Young in cold blood. How did they get away with it? Our own corrupt leaders from Governor Owens down to Denver Mayor Hickenlooper support city sanctuary policies and aid the illegals to remain in Colorado against federal laws.

Colorado estimates 300,000 illegal aliens operating within its borders. They defraud the state out of millions of dollars in welfare claims, anchor babies, food stamps, assisted housing, felony crimes, drug distribution and burglaries in homes and businesses.

How about Texas? They harbor 1.5 million illegal Mexicans and others from Africa and Asia. ItÂ’s SO saturated with illegals that they are considering use of illegal aliens to teach Spanish in our schools to illegal alien kids! How crazy and totally insane is that? In the meantime, their hit and run numbers run off the charts. Who pays? Texans pay with higher insurance rates and taxes for schools totally flooded with illegal alien kids. Last October, an illegal alien killed Officer Brian Jackson in Dallas.

"There is not only great concern that the drug trade is becoming more aggressive, but that terrorist organizations are seeking to exploit our porous border," Governor Rick Perry of Texas said. "Last year alone, 135,000 people who are not of Mexican descent were apprehended entering Texas illegally. The threat is real, and it grows each day."

Check out Arizona! A year ago, they suffered 57,600 stolen vehicles making Phoenix the new car jacking capitol of the world. With 500,000 illegal aliens in Arizona, schools have turned into gang wars and education has turned into a farce. To top that off, Arizona suffers millions and millions of tons of trash and human waste running the length of their border with Mexico. Mexicans think trash, soiled baby diapers, urine bottles and garbage belong anywhere but a trash can. It’s so bad that the Arizona governor declared a ‘state of emergency’ driven by the invasion of illegal aliens last year. Too little, too late!

How about Georgia? In 2002, they paid out $27 million for illegal alien anchor babies out of their citizensÂ’ taxes at the state level. Illegal aliens receiving public assistance cost them $42 million. Illegal aliens tapped into $63 million of free health care that cost Georgians. Illegal alien convicted felons cost Georgians $15 million for prison costs.

California stands at the forefront of this national nightmare. The corruption, graft, cheating on taxes, paying no taxes, horrific crimes from the ‘18th Street Gang’ along with MS-13 Gang defies imagination. Get this! In the past five years, 86 California hospitals and ER wards bankrupted! California suffers $38 billion debt. Over two million kids go to school in trailers along with hordes of illegal alien kids. Los Angeles is no longer an American city and the crime and graft is now in the hands of Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa who is an advocate for La Raza and ‘Reconquista de Aztlan’ or reconquest of the four Border States.

We simply allowed so much illegal alien migration that now, Villaraigosa has embedded himself into Los Angeles to help more Mexicans take over the city. How did he get elected? Try voter fraud by more than three million illegal aliens residing in LA. Today, Los Angeles is unfit for Americans to live there. Given enough time, it will mirror the slums, crime and misery of Mexico City.

How about Maine? Governor Baldacci signed an executive order making his state the first to give sanctuary to all illegal aliens. It’s against federal law to “…aid, abet, encourage, assist or in any way help an illegal alien to remain in the United States no matter what your personal convictions.” USC 8, 1324, 274, 275, 276. Their social services are being overrun and overwhelmed. This illustrates how far and high corruption rises in government.

Yet, the lawlessness grows like a runaway cancer. Denver Mayor Hickenlooper broke immigration laws before becoming mayor. Instead of going to prison, he laughs at the law even while one of his hired employees killed Officer Don Young in cold blood. The City Council of Boulder, Colorado snores while its sanctuary policy helped eight illegals rape eight Boulder women. The Boulder city mayor sighs while Dale EnglerthÂ’s family suffers from their fatherÂ’s death at the hands of a drunken Mexican who had been stopped nine times before killing Englerth.

I can write about Colorado with only 300,000 illegals and see the lawlessness first hand because I live there. States like North Carolina with over 1,000,000 illegals suffer consequences three times that of Colorado. Chicago has turned into another Mexico. Miami is now North Havana, Cuba!

Bear-Stearns’ report last year showed $400 billion in unpaid IRS taxes by illegal aliens annually and exposed it as the world’s second largest underground economy. Who makes up that money? You do! The report didn’t show the $60 billion in cash transfers being sent out of our country annually! While cheating, raping, stealing and killing us—they send our money back home.

Take a guess at the cost of illegal aliens in state and federal prisons annually. Try a whopping $1.6 billion to keep over 500,000 illegal aliens and legal criminal felon immigrants locked up! They equal 29 percent of all criminals in our prisons. ThatÂ’s after theyÂ’ve committed crimes of rape, murders, robberies, child molestation, drug trade, sex trade and worse on our citizens.

When this Congress and president blissfully sit by making excuses for illegal aliens in our country, against our laws, against our Constitution--while law-abiding American citizens get their hearts cut out—it’s disgusting, sickening and pathetic at the highest levels of government. It’s even more sickening when you realize that their corruption grows with such men as lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Worse, Abramoff got caught while God knows how many like him don’t get caught! If we dug deeper, we’d find that corruption is a way of life for who knows how many of our elected senators and congressmen. How many more Duke Cunningham’s ($2.4 million in kickback bribes) and Tom Delay’s are out there lying, cheating and screwing Americans out of money and out of our country—all for the green back dollar?

I canÂ’t wait for the investigation to show the $8 billion unaccounted for as to expenditures in Iraq as reported on CBS Evening News last Friday, February 10, 2006. Anyone want to bet that HalliburtonÂ’s abuse of our war dollars will be a bigger scandal than Abramoff? WhatÂ’s worse, our young men and women are getting killed while those people at Halliburton get rich.

The lawlessness doesn’t stop there. Third World corruption infects every sector of our society. Employers of illegals relish income tax evasion. They force Americans out of jobs. Consequently, our working poor stand in food stamp lines, unemployment lines, welfare lines and other avenues of degradation. Can you imagine the fraud of the H-1B, H-2B and L-t visas? Our finest high tech workers suffer displacement by cheap Third World immigrants who work the same jobs for peanuts. Somebody enriches their wallet at the expense of Americans. Our citizens become victims of illegal alien crime, drugs, school chaos and drunken highway madness.”

This is the reason I maintain the position that every law abiding citizen should be armed and ready, I may not see it in my lifetime, but at some point you may have to defend yourself and family against those that we allowed to come here illegally.  This is an open invitation to anyone who does not believe this is a real and present threat to the American way of life to come to Texas and experience it for your self.  If the above problems have not shown up in your neighborhood yet, hang loose it be long before you can see first hand.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a house burglar an un-invited house guest.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2006, 01:25:58 PM »
rockbilly, I didn't call these illegal immigrants "undocumented". I have to insist that I only be dunned for what I say, not what people impute to me.

The first study you mention, from Florida, is incomplete. It focuses on taxes, not economic impact. Tax revenues in vs. expenditures out only gives part of the story. Let me explain:

When I make a dollar, I have two choices: saving it or spending on stuff. The amount I spend on stuff is called "consumption" of goods and services. Right now, the savings rate is  pretty low, so out of every dollar I make, let's say about 95 cents goes towards consumption. That, by the way, indicates a 5 percent savings rate, something this country hasn't seen in decades. We normally hover around the 2% or 3% range.

The 95 cents I spend becomes income to someone else, demand for something he's producing. Food, movies, haircuts, refrigerators, whatever - I'm demanding things which employs people in their production. So now he's got 95 cents. He can choose to spend it or save it. Following the example above, he saves 5% of it (4 3/4 cents) and spends the rest. That becomes demand for goods and services, etc.

If you add up this series of expenditures, you can get the total amount of economic demand produced by that one dollar of income to me. It should be obvious that the amount of demand produced by one dollar of income is quite a bit more than the original dollar. It is the 95 cents I spend, plus the 90 cents the next guy spend, etc. The formula to figure this out is 1/1-mpc. The MPC is the marginal propensity to consume and it is the amount I choose to consume out of each additional dollar. In this case, the MPC is .95. The "multiplier effect", then is 1/1-.95  or 1/.05 or 20. Each dollar spent produces 20 dollars of consumption demand. Now, in the real world, economists understand that there are leakages and the true multiplier is somewhat less. However, the principle remains the same: people spending money results in a multiplicative effect on demand.

By the same token, removing those people from the spending population reduces demand by a multiplicative effect.

So when studies focus strictly on the public cost vs. estimated taxes paid, these studies are incomplete. They are accounting studies, not economic studies. They understate both the true costs and the true benefits by concentrating on only a piece of the equation. That's why I'm not really excited about such studies. I understand they are looking at only part of the issue. There's a whole 'nother piece out there they are not accounting for.

In other words, the study you quote from Florida is incomplete.

The study from California? Same thing. It focuses on a few social costs but skips over potential benefits from consumption demand. It, too, is incomplete. Like the Florida study, it is good as far as it goes, but it is by no means an economic study but rather an accounting study. Economists have a much bigger perspective than focusing solely on public expenses resulting from policy choices.

Mississippi study: ditto.

All three studies are incomplete and focus solely on selected costs, not consumption demand. Consequently, each study is a product of selective statistical analysis.

Frosty Wooldridge:

He attributes criminal activity by illegal immigrants to a different set of social values. He has no particular basis for this that I can see, other than the usual suspicion that  people "not like us" have lower moral values. That, again, was a common complaint about the Irish when they arrived, the Italians when they arrived, the Germans when they arrived, etc. Each time a new wave of "others" hits, people assume that they have lower morals than those already here.

Putting that aside for the moment, it is probably true that higher crime rates correlate to higher illegal immigrant populations. However, as people in the debate about the Second Amendment are wont to note, correlation is not causation. Just having a gun doesn't mean one is predisposed to use it wrongly. Two things happening at the same time doesn't mean one caused the other. The Latin phrase for this is "post hoc, ergo propter hoc." For example, I can show you a perfect correlation between our annual gross domestic product and cumulative snowfall in Kazakhstan. Both trend upwards uniformly, or almost so. Yet no one would argue that one causes the other.

The same is true for crime in the illegal immigrant community. Economists run regression analysis to see which of several independent variables provide the most explanatory power for changes in a dependent variable and I'm willing to bet that crime anywhere is more associated with income levels than immigrant status. In other words, since illegal immigrants are usually at the bottom of the income ladder, it stands to reason that their communities will be more associated with criminal activity. Yet the reason is not because they are illegal immigrants but because they are poor.

Wooldridge makes many appeals to emotion but fails to give what Paul Harvey calls "the rest of the story". For example, hit and run accidents in Greeley: if you are driving illegally, are you likely to stay around and maybe get sent back to Mexico if you smack into someone? Illegal immigrants work hard at staying out of official sight. So the reason for the increase in hit and run accidents has more to do with fear of deportation than it does with a overall lower morality among illegal immigrants. Not that this excuses anything, of course. The point I'm making is that Wooldridge is appealing to emotion, not reason.

He tries to make us think that "they all protect each other" with the notation regarding the ethnicity of the Colorado DMV employees giving out 200 or so licenses to people that were illegal aliens. What was the motivation? Greed or "sticking together"? He wants us to think that Hispanics represent a fifth column in the United States and personally, I think that is racism from first to last. I'm sorry, but that's the way I see it. I don't know if Wooldridge is a racist, but trying to make us believe that one ethnic group is operating against the United States is nothing but racism talking.

He then goes on to talk about the costs they impose on our society, all of which is true but as I pointed out above, represents only a part of the issue. The consumption demand they represent seems to have eluded him.

His appeal to outrage includes noting that these illegal immigrants shoot police officers. What he misses is that police officers are also shot by bona fide citizens. What I'd like to see is some sort of differential statistic - are police officers more likely to be shot by an illegal immigrant than a citizen? He doesn't say. He is making an appeal to emotion, so it stands to reason that he doesn't mention such statistics. Maybe illegal immigrants DO shoot police officers more often than citizens do. I don't know. And Wooldridge isn't up to the task of making such a reasonable inquiry.

He tries to scare people into thinking that Hispanic politicians are out to give the Southwest back to Mexico. In the end, he calls for people to be armed and ready to repel the Hispanic horde that he sees as inevitably menacing decent Americans in their homes. He is essentially calling for us to be ready for a race war.

Guys like him are disgusting. He's no different than the wonderful folks running the White Aryan Nation. His rhetoric is the same and his methods are identical. What's next? Publishing the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? The Turner Diaries?

If this is whom we are giving ear to, then worse for us.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2006, 02:44:42 PM »
The assumption that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that Americans would be filling in their absence is an assertion, nothing more. It is not a proven fact.

The competitors for jobs these illegal immigrants are filling are people who do not have a high school diploma. Please show where unemployment in this group is higher than it would be in the absence of illegal immigration. Until you can, you have an assertion, nothing more. An assertion is not a fact.

Regarding the second point, that of tax money going to support illegal immigrants: I have glossed over nothing. I've noted that true economic studies include the costs you speak of but also include the effect of increased consumption, something NONE of the studies you or anyone else has mentioned has included. Apparently, you misunderstood my posts on this point. A true economic study, as opposed to an accounting study, includes the accounting data that you are focused on but also includes the effect these illegal immigrants have on consumption demand. Economic studies are more inclusive than focusing on the costs you are viewing.

Tax money is not removed from the economy, as you assert. The government also is a demander of consumption, perhaps the biggest single consumer in the nation. Tax money goes to pay salaries, buy tanks, paper clips, copying machines, etc. It is not as efficient a multiplier as personal consumption, but it is pretty good.

I believe it is probably true that there are better ways to cultivate an economy. That is another mistake you are making - thinking I am somehow in favor of illegal immigration. I am not. As I've said over and over, I'm in favor of strong borders and that by necessity means being against illegal immigration.

I'm just not as concerned about the present number of illegal immigrants as people here are. We've weathered waves of immigration nearly twice as large in this country and lived to tell the tale.

Offline powderman

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« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2006, 03:45:00 PM »
ROCKBILLY. Good posts Sir, I agree.
daks. In other words you don't know what those words mean. POWDERMAN.  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline doncisler

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« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2006, 05:12:10 PM »
we have enough laws. enforce them.
no handouts to anyone who is not documented, period
put em where you want em

nra life menber
nahc life menber

Offline Daks

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Immigration
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2006, 12:11:59 AM »
If you think my discussions seem to justify illegal immigration, then you are making an inference that is not warranted, TM7. Not being as concerned about the present effect of illegal immigration is a different thing entirely than justifying more of the same. I don't think the present group of illegal immigrants represents the problem that you do. However, that's is not the same as saying I want MORE illegal immigration.

The first paragraph of your response to me is another restatement of "national identity". This is a worry grounded in fears of losing our majority status to people we see as "other". I don't have this worry since I don't see these people as "other". In two generations, they'll be as American as you or me. Just like the last big waves.

Furthermore, your observation regarding the frontier is simply inaccurate. The landing spot for the big waves of immigration in the past was not the frontier, it was the big cities of NY, Boston, etc. The people in those cities certainly were not seeing the wave of immigration absorbed in the countryside. For your assertion to be accurate, you'd need to show that most of the immigrants from those other big waves landed in the depopulated areas. They did not.

As for "glossing over" the Civil War, first, I'm the only poster holding this side of the argument. If you expect that I'm going to have the energy and time to answer every single charge flung, you are mistaken. Second, his statement was ridiculous. Viewing the Civil War as a forced assimilation of slaves is nonsense and I took his comment as someone with an axe to grind. The Civil War discussion forum is full of these bitter people with radical views of history and I can't  take them seriously enough to respond to them. THEY take themselves and their views seriously, but I don't. I didn't bother commenting because I figured, let him blow off some steam. The fact that you took him seriously enough to claim I'm somehow "glossing over" when I was trying to maintain a diplomatic silence says a lot. Much as I disagree with you, you don't seem to want to fight the Civil War all over again.

Your assertion regarding the loss of jobs is just that, an assertion. I don't think you have examined it closely enough. It is true that the market sets the price of jobs but importing labor does not circumvent the system. It IS the system. When demand for, say, computer systems administrators in Atlanta grows, so will salaries offered. People from other parts of the country move there to take the jobs. The salaries then move back down in consonance with national levels.

In order for your assertion to be accurate, first, you'd have to show that in the absence of illegal immigration, the jobs that these people are taking would have higher salaries. That is probably true, actually. Next, though, you'd have to show that the competitors for these jobs, high school dropouts, are in fact disporportionately affected by this competition. THAT's probably true as well, at least for the specific region.

The problem is, it isn't true overall for the entire nation. Why? Because of the same dynamics that I mentioned earlier about systems administrators. The data I've seen does not show a national increase in unemployment for this group because as jobs dry up for them in one region, they tend to leave that area and seek jobs elsewhere. The flaw in your employment model is that it does not account for regional flows of labor.

Supposedly, I'm "glossing" again when I rely on "hard" economic study, but  I figure that if we are going to discuss the economic impact of illegal immigration, then we ought to have some data instead of just going on whether we "like" to have our taxes go for various things. How people feel about things is important but if someone wants to talk numbers, then talk numbers, not emotions.

When you  worry about the economic effect on the home country, though, of all this immigration, you lay yourself open to the same charge you were making against me earlier, that I'm a "globalist". I, personally, am not that concerned with the effect on Mexico of illegal immigration to the US. If you are, then aren't you not a "globalist"?

It isn't that I "call" it xenophobic when people are suspicious of outsiders. Merriam and Webster say that is the definition of the word. It becomes racist when we start worrying about national identity being changed due to losing majority status. I have no idea if you or rockbilly are actually racist, so don't claim I'm calling you that. I'm not. I'm saying that I  find the argument about "national identity" to be about preserving white America and viewing Hispanics as people of lower morality who seek to impose a different culture on the US than the one it now has. To me, that is no different than when the White Aryan Nation starts up with its slogans.

Being xenophobic isn't the problem, though. That's natural enough. It is probably instinctive and actually a good defense mechanism. However, xenophobia can also become racism when we start talking about preserving "national identity", as the article by Wooldridge points out. Look at the tone of his  article - it could have been written by any well-educated skinhead. It is all about fear and in the end, warns of a coming race war, for goodness sakes. THAT's what I'm concerned about, natural wariness and concern about where the country is heading becoming radicalized by people seeking to play to racial fears and divide us even more than we already are.

Offline rockbilly

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Immigration
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2006, 02:07:17 AM »
:x First let me state, I am not a raciest, I am in favor of a controlled and documented method of allowing immigrants to legally enter this country, work and return to their home country, or to assimilate into American society and become a citizen after a period of time.

 

I am opposed to any and all programs to allow those here illegally to stay with a blanket amnesty.  In my opinion this will only lead to an increased number of illegals attempting to gain entry because they know there is no penalty if caught, additionally, this would only serve as a slap in the face to the thousands of people who patiently wait to enter legally.  Following are additional concerns regarding this issue:

When this Congress and president blissfully sit by making excuses for illegal aliens in our country, against our laws, against our Constitution--while law-abiding American citizens get their hearts cut out—it’s disgusting, sickening and pathetic at the highest levels of government.

LetÂ’s look at the cost of illegal immigrants for just a few states:

Florida. Analysis of the latest Census data indicates FloridaÂ’s illegal immigrant population is costing the stateÂ’s taxpayers nearly two billion dollars per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated taxes collected from illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to nearly one billion dollars per year. The annual fiscal burden amounts to about $315 per Florida household headed by a native-born resident.

This analysis looks specifically at the costs to the state for education, health care and incarceration resulting from illegal immigration. These three are the largest cost areas, and they are the same three areas analyzed in a 1994 study conducted by the Urban Institute, which provides a useful baseline for comparison a decade later. Other studies have been conducted in the interim, showing trends that support the conclusions of this report.

There are other significant costs associated with illegal immigration, and federal and state officials should take these into account as well. Even without accounting for all of the numerous areas in which costs associated with illegal immigration are being incurred by Florida taxpayers, the program areas analyzed in this study indicate that the burden is substantial and that the costs are rapidly increasing. (Revised: 10/28/05)

 

California:  Californians are clearly unhappy with the state of our state. But our newly elected governor can restore luster and prosperity to California if he has the courage to take the necessary steps -- particularly in terms of immigration.
 
To be blunt, our future will be lost unless we stop California's accelerating population growth. Adding 600,000 newcomers every year to California, essentially all immigration-related, who need housing, health care, fire and police protection and many other costly social services will only exacerbate the fiscal and growth problems we urgently need to solve. Indeed, U.S. Census data showed that immigration was largely responsible for the 30 percent increase in poverty in California in the last decade.
 
Furthermore, according to an analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies, based on Census data collected in 2002, 28.1 percent of the estimated 3 million legal immigrant-headed households in the state and 31.5 percent of the 600,000 illegal immigrant-headed households participated in at least on one of four major welfare programs. The total estimated welfare spending, cash and non-cash, given to legal immigrant families in California was roughly $6 billion, with illegal immigrant families accounting for $850 million in 2001 alone.
 
In addition, at least 400,000 illegal immigrant students are in California schools, each costing the state an average of more than $6,000 a year. Well over 25 percent of federal prisoners are illegal aliens who committed crimes. Many county hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy because of the care they provide to illegal immigrant families. Such costs continue to rise rapidly. How about Georgia? In 2002, they paid out $27 million for illegal alien anchor babies out of their citizensÂ’ taxes at the state level. Illegal aliens receiving public assistance cost them $42 million. Illegal aliens tapped into $63 million of free health care that cost Georgians. Illegal alien convicted felons cost Georgians $15 million for prison costs.

 

Mississippi.   There is no accurate count of the number of illegal immigrants in Mississippi today, but the estimate ranges between 100,000 and 149,000 according to information provided by State Auditor Phil Bryant.  These are the figures he used to establish the cost to taxpayers.

Bryant said state taxpayers are picking up the tab for some $25 million in public healthy care, education and prison cost alone.  It is likely the numbers – estimated immigrants and the $25 million in taxpayer cost – are low estimates.  MississippiÂ’s immigration population – legal and illegal is growing.  Mississippi currently has the sixth most diverse population in America

Georgia   In 2002, illegal immigrants placed a $147 million burden on the taxpayers of Georgia.

This could go on and on, Texas alone spends almost a billion dollars of taxpayer money each year to provide for the illegal population.  But letÂ’s not stop here; look at the increased crime rates.

Following is from an article by Frosty Wooldridge, AmericanVoiceRadio.net. which give data from all over the United States.

“Corruption becomes a mechanism by which Third World societies operate,” Heath Boatwright said. “When you immigrate millions of them illegally into the United States, you create exactly the same lawlessness in our country. They feel at home because so many of their countrymen break the law with fellow illegal aliens that it is a ‘normal’ continuance of their behavior in our civilization.”

Back in Athens, Georgia today, Boatwright lived in South America for several years. He observed how societies operated with an edge toward corruption in all aspects of their people and governments. How can I vouch for BoatwrightÂ’s observations? I traveled for nine months on bicycle throughout South America. I saw what he saw. ItÂ’s not pretty.

When I wrote about corruption in Mexico and other Third World countries, I mentioned that citizens must bribe mail carriers or suffer their undelivered mail. In Asia, you must get your letters cancelled at the post office or they will steal stamps off your envelope. Bribery is a way of life when it comes to the police in Third World countries. When a car accident occurs in Mexico, all parties split the scene. Why? No one wants to be caught because they donÂ’t carry insurance, no licenses, have outstanding warrants or they may be carrying drugs.

To give you an idea of how fast the United States careens into Third World standard operating procedure, in Greeley, Colorado last year, police recorded 270 hit and run accidents last year. Greeley, with less than 70,000 residents, houses the largest contingent of Mexicans in Colorado. They illegally work at the meat packing plant. They drink like fish after work. They drive. With these realities, driving on Saturday nights in Greeley places you in great danger.

In ColoradoÂ’s Department of Motor Vehicles, last year, two Hispanics employees gave over 200 illegal aliens Commercial DriverÂ’s Licenses and hundreds regular licenses. Those illegals couldnÂ’t read a test let alone take it or pass it with their sixth grade educations in Spanish. Yet, they drove on our highways in 50,000 pound 18-wheelers running at 70 miles per hour and were implicated in over 26 crashes.

Colorado suffered three deaths by illegal aliens in the past year. Illegal drunken Mexicans killed two Americans, Justin Goodman and Dale Englerth. One Mexican shot and killed Officer Don Young in cold blood. How did they get away with it? Our own corrupt leaders from Governor Owens down to Denver Mayor Hickenlooper support city sanctuary policies and aid the illegals to remain in Colorado against federal laws.

Colorado estimates 300,000 illegal aliens operating within its borders. They defraud the state out of millions of dollars in welfare claims, anchor babies, food stamps, assisted housing, felony crimes, drug distribution and burglaries in homes and businesses.

How about Texas? They harbor 1.5 million illegal Mexicans and others from Africa and Asia. ItÂ’s SO saturated with illegals that they are considering use of illegal aliens to teach Spanish in our schools to illegal alien kids! How crazy and totally insane is that? In the meantime, their hit and run numbers run off the charts. Who pays? Texans pay with higher insurance rates and taxes for schools totally flooded with illegal alien kids. Last October, an illegal alien killed Officer Brian Jackson in Dallas.

"There is not only great concern that the drug trade is becoming more aggressive, but that terrorist organizations are seeking to exploit our porous border," Governor Rick Perry of Texas said. "Last year alone, 135,000 people who are not of Mexican descent were apprehended entering Texas illegally. The threat is real, and it grows each day."

Check out Arizona! A year ago, they suffered 57,600 stolen vehicles making Phoenix the new car jacking capitol of the world. With 500,000 illegal aliens in Arizona, schools have turned into gang wars and education has turned into a farce. To top that off, Arizona suffers millions and millions of tons of trash and human waste running the length of their border with Mexico. Mexicans think trash, soiled baby diapers, urine bottles and garbage belong anywhere but a trash can. It’s so bad that the Arizona governor declared a ‘state of emergency’ driven by the invasion of illegal aliens last year. Too little, too late!

How about Georgia? In 2002, they paid out $27 million for illegal alien anchor babies out of their citizensÂ’ taxes at the state level. Illegal aliens receiving public assistance cost them $42 million. Illegal aliens tapped into $63 million of free health care that cost Georgians. Illegal alien convicted felons cost Georgians $15 million for prison costs.

California stands at the forefront of this national nightmare. The corruption, graft, cheating on taxes, paying no taxes, horrific crimes from the ‘18th Street Gang’ along with MS-13 Gang defies imagination. Get this! In the past five years, 86 California hospitals and ER wards bankrupted! California suffers $38 billion debt. Over two million kids go to school in trailers along with hordes of illegal alien kids. Los Angeles is no longer an American city and the crime and graft is now in the hands of Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa who is an advocate for La Raza and ‘Reconquista de Aztlan’ or reconquest of the four Border States.

We simply allowed so much illegal alien migration that now, Villaraigosa has embedded himself into Los Angeles to help more Mexicans take over the city. How did he get elected? Try voter fraud by more than three million illegal aliens residing in LA. Today, Los Angeles is unfit for Americans to live there. Given enough time, it will mirror the slums, crime and misery of Mexico City.

How about Maine? Governor Baldacci signed an executive order making his state the first to give sanctuary to all illegal aliens. It’s against federal law to “…aid, abet, encourage, assist or in any way help an illegal alien to remain in the United States no matter what your personal convictions.” USC 8, 1324, 274, 275, 276. Their social services are being overrun and overwhelmed. This illustrates how far and high corruption rises in government.

Yet, the lawlessness grows like a runaway cancer. Denver Mayor Hickenlooper broke immigration laws before becoming mayor. Instead of going to prison, he laughs at the law even while one of his hired employees killed Officer Don Young in cold blood. The City Council of Boulder, Colorado snores while its sanctuary policy helped eight illegals rape eight Boulder women. The Boulder city mayor sighs while Dale EnglerthÂ’s family suffers from their fatherÂ’s death at the hands of a drunken Mexican who had been stopped nine times before killing Englerth.

I can write about Colorado with only 300,000 illegals and see the lawlessness first hand because I live there. States like North Carolina with over 1,000,000 illegals suffer consequences three times that of Colorado. Chicago has turned into another Mexico. Miami is now North Havana, Cuba!

Bear-Stearns’ report last year showed $400 billion in unpaid IRS taxes by illegal aliens annually and exposed it as the world’s second largest underground economy. Who makes up that money? You do! The report didn’t show the $60 billion in cash transfers being sent out of our country annually! While cheating, raping, stealing and killing us—they send our money back home.

Take a guess at the cost of illegal aliens in state and federal prisons annually. Try a whopping $1.6 billion to keep over 500,000 illegal aliens and legal criminal felon immigrants locked up! They equal 29 percent of all criminals in our prisons. ThatÂ’s after theyÂ’ve committed crimes of rape, murders, robberies, child molestation, drug trade, sex trade and worse on our citizens.

When this Congress and president blissfully sit by making excuses for illegal aliens in our country, against our laws, against our Constitution--while law-abiding American citizens get their hearts cut out—it’s disgusting, sickening and pathetic at the highest levels of government. It’s even more sickening when you realize that their corruption grows with such men as lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Worse, Abramoff got caught while God knows how many like him don’t get caught! If we dug deeper, we’d find that corruption is a way of life for who knows how many of our elected senators and congressmen. How many more Duke Cunningham’s ($2.4 million in kickback bribes) and Tom Delay’s are out there lying, cheating and screwing Americans out of money and out of our country—all for the green back dollar?

I canÂ’t wait for the investigation to show the $8 billion unaccounted for as to expenditures in Iraq as reported on CBS Evening News last Friday, February 10, 2006. Anyone want to bet that HalliburtonÂ’s abuse of our war dollars will be a bigger scandal than Abramoff? WhatÂ’s worse, our young men and women are getting killed while those people at Halliburton get rich.

The lawlessness doesn’t stop there. Third World corruption infects every sector of our society. Employers of illegals relish income tax evasion. They force Americans out of jobs. Consequently, our working poor stand in food stamp lines, unemployment lines, welfare lines and other avenues of degradation. Can you imagine the fraud of the H-1B, H-2B and L-t visas? Our finest high tech workers suffer displacement by cheap Third World immigrants who work the same jobs for peanuts. Somebody enriches their wallet at the expense of Americans. Our citizens become victims of illegal alien crime, drugs, school chaos and drunken highway madness.”

This is the reason I maintain the position that every law abiding citizen should be armed and ready, I may not see it in my lifetime, but at some point you may have to defend yourself and family against those that we allowed to come here illegally.  This is an open invitation to anyone who does not believe this is a real and present threat to the American way of life to come to Texas and experience it for your self.  If the above problems have not shown up in your neighborhood yet, hang loose it won't be long before you can see them first hand.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a house burglar an un-invited house guest.

Offline rockbilly

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Immigration
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2006, 02:08:23 AM »
:x First let me state, I am not a raciest, I am in favor of a controlled and documented method of allowing immigrants to legally enter this country, work and return to their home country, or to assimilate into American society and become a citizen after a period of time.

 

I am opposed to any and all programs to allow those here illegally to stay with a blanket amnesty.  In my opinion this will only lead to an increased number of illegals attempting to gain entry because they know there is no penalty if caught, additionally, this would only serve as a slap in the face to the thousands of people who patiently wait to enter legally.  Following are additional concerns regarding this issue:

When this Congress and president blissfully sit by making excuses for illegal aliens in our country, against our laws, against our Constitution--while law-abiding American citizens get their hearts cut out—it’s disgusting, sickening and pathetic at the highest levels of government.

LetÂ’s look at the cost of illegal immigrants for just a few states:

Florida. Analysis of the latest Census data indicates FloridaÂ’s illegal immigrant population is costing the stateÂ’s taxpayers nearly two billion dollars per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated taxes collected from illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to nearly one billion dollars per year. The annual fiscal burden amounts to about $315 per Florida household headed by a native-born resident.

This analysis looks specifically at the costs to the state for education, health care and incarceration resulting from illegal immigration. These three are the largest cost areas, and they are the same three areas analyzed in a 1994 study conducted by the Urban Institute, which provides a useful baseline for comparison a decade later. Other studies have been conducted in the interim, showing trends that support the conclusions of this report.

There are other significant costs associated with illegal immigration, and federal and state officials should take these into account as well. Even without accounting for all of the numerous areas in which costs associated with illegal immigration are being incurred by Florida taxpayers, the program areas analyzed in this study indicate that the burden is substantial and that the costs are rapidly increasing. (Revised: 10/28/05)

 

California:  Californians are clearly unhappy with the state of our state. But our newly elected governor can restore luster and prosperity to California if he has the courage to take the necessary steps -- particularly in terms of immigration.
 
To be blunt, our future will be lost unless we stop California's accelerating population growth. Adding 600,000 newcomers every year to California, essentially all immigration-related, who need housing, health care, fire and police protection and many other costly social services will only exacerbate the fiscal and growth problems we urgently need to solve. Indeed, U.S. Census data showed that immigration was largely responsible for the 30 percent increase in poverty in California in the last decade.
 
Furthermore, according to an analysis by the Center for Immigration Studies, based on Census data collected in 2002, 28.1 percent of the estimated 3 million legal immigrant-headed households in the state and 31.5 percent of the 600,000 illegal immigrant-headed households participated in at least on one of four major welfare programs. The total estimated welfare spending, cash and non-cash, given to legal immigrant families in California was roughly $6 billion, with illegal immigrant families accounting for $850 million in 2001 alone.
 
In addition, at least 400,000 illegal immigrant students are in California schools, each costing the state an average of more than $6,000 a year. Well over 25 percent of federal prisoners are illegal aliens who committed crimes. Many county hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy because of the care they provide to illegal immigrant families. Such costs continue to rise rapidly. How about Georgia? In 2002, they paid out $27 million for illegal alien anchor babies out of their citizensÂ’ taxes at the state level. Illegal aliens receiving public assistance cost them $42 million. Illegal aliens tapped into $63 million of free health care that cost Georgians. Illegal alien convicted felons cost Georgians $15 million for prison costs.

 

Mississippi.   There is no accurate count of the number of illegal immigrants in Mississippi today, but the estimate ranges between 100,000 and 149,000 according to information provided by State Auditor Phil Bryant.  These are the figures he used to establish the cost to taxpayers.

Bryant said state taxpayers are picking up the tab for some $25 million in public healthy care, education and prison cost alone.  It is likely the numbers – estimated immigrants and the $25 million in taxpayer cost – are low estimates.  MississippiÂ’s immigration population – legal and illegal is growing.  Mississippi currently has the sixth most diverse population in America

Georgia   In 2002, illegal immigrants placed a $147 million burden on the taxpayers of Georgia.

This could go on and on, Texas alone spends almost a billion dollars of taxpayer money each year to provide for the illegal population.  But letÂ’s not stop here; look at the increased crime rates.

Following is from an article by Frosty Wooldridge, AmericanVoiceRadio.net. which give data from all over the United States.

“Corruption becomes a mechanism by which Third World societies operate,” Heath Boatwright said. “When you immigrate millions of them illegally into the United States, you create exactly the same lawlessness in our country. They feel at home because so many of their countrymen break the law with fellow illegal aliens that it is a ‘normal’ continuance of their behavior in our civilization.”

Back in Athens, Georgia today, Boatwright lived in South America for several years. He observed how societies operated with an edge toward corruption in all aspects of their people and governments. How can I vouch for BoatwrightÂ’s observations? I traveled for nine months on bicycle throughout South America. I saw what he saw. ItÂ’s not pretty.

When I wrote about corruption in Mexico and other Third World countries, I mentioned that citizens must bribe mail carriers or suffer their undelivered mail. In Asia, you must get your letters cancelled at the post office or they will steal stamps off your envelope. Bribery is a way of life when it comes to the police in Third World countries. When a car accident occurs in Mexico, all parties split the scene. Why? No one wants to be caught because they donÂ’t carry insurance, no licenses, have outstanding warrants or they may be carrying drugs.

To give you an idea of how fast the United States careens into Third World standard operating procedure, in Greeley, Colorado last year, police recorded 270 hit and run accidents last year. Greeley, with less than 70,000 residents, houses the largest contingent of Mexicans in Colorado. They illegally work at the meat packing plant. They drink like fish after work. They drive. With these realities, driving on Saturday nights in Greeley places you in great danger.

In ColoradoÂ’s Department of Motor Vehicles, last year, two Hispanics employees gave over 200 illegal aliens Commercial DriverÂ’s Licenses and hundreds regular licenses. Those illegals couldnÂ’t read a test let alone take it or pass it with their sixth grade educations in Spanish. Yet, they drove on our highways in 50,000 pound 18-wheelers running at 70 miles per hour and were implicated in over 26 crashes.

Colorado suffered three deaths by illegal aliens in the past year. Illegal drunken Mexicans killed two Americans, Justin Goodman and Dale Englerth. One Mexican shot and killed Officer Don Young in cold blood. How did they get away with it? Our own corrupt leaders from Governor Owens down to Denver Mayor Hickenlooper support city sanctuary policies and aid the illegals to remain in Colorado against federal laws.

Colorado estimates 300,000 illegal aliens operating within its borders. They defraud the state out of millions of dollars in welfare claims, anchor babies, food stamps, assisted housing, felony crimes, drug distribution and burglaries in homes and businesses.

How about Texas? They harbor 1.5 million illegal Mexicans and others from Africa and Asia. ItÂ’s SO saturated with illegals that they are considering use of illegal aliens to teach Spanish in our schools to illegal alien kids! How crazy and totally insane is that? In the meantime, their hit and run numbers run off the charts. Who pays? Texans pay with higher insurance rates and taxes for schools totally flooded with illegal alien kids. Last October, an illegal alien killed Officer Brian Jackson in Dallas.

"There is not only great concern that the drug trade is becoming more aggressive, but that terrorist organizations are seeking to exploit our porous border," Governor Rick Perry of Texas said. "Last year alone, 135,000 people who are not of Mexican descent were apprehended entering Texas illegally. The threat is real, and it grows each day."

Check out Arizona! A year ago, they suffered 57,600 stolen vehicles making Phoenix the new car jacking capitol of the world. With 500,000 illegal aliens in Arizona, schools have turned into gang wars and education has turned into a farce. To top that off, Arizona suffers millions and millions of tons of trash and human waste running the length of their border with Mexico. Mexicans think trash, soiled baby diapers, urine bottles and garbage belong anywhere but a trash can. It’s so bad that the Arizona governor declared a ‘state of emergency’ driven by the invasion of illegal aliens last year. Too little, too late!

How about Georgia? In 2002, they paid out $27 million for illegal alien anchor babies out of their citizensÂ’ taxes at the state level. Illegal aliens receiving public assistance cost them $42 million. Illegal aliens tapped into $63 million of free health care that cost Georgians. Illegal alien convicted felons cost Georgians $15 million for prison costs.

California stands at the forefront of this national nightmare. The corruption, graft, cheating on taxes, paying no taxes, horrific crimes from the ‘18th Street Gang’ along with MS-13 Gang defies imagination. Get this! In the past five years, 86 California hospitals and ER wards bankrupted! California suffers $38 billion debt. Over two million kids go to school in trailers along with hordes of illegal alien kids. Los Angeles is no longer an American city and the crime and graft is now in the hands of Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa who is an advocate for La Raza and ‘Reconquista de Aztlan’ or reconquest of the four Border States.

We simply allowed so much illegal alien migration that now, Villaraigosa has embedded himself into Los Angeles to help more Mexicans take over the city. How did he get elected? Try voter fraud by more than three million illegal aliens residing in LA. Today, Los Angeles is unfit for Americans to live there. Given enough time, it will mirror the slums, crime and misery of Mexico City.

How about Maine? Governor Baldacci signed an executive order making his state the first to give sanctuary to all illegal aliens. It’s against federal law to “…aid, abet, encourage, assist or in any way help an illegal alien to remain in the United States no matter what your personal convictions.” USC 8, 1324, 274, 275, 276. Their social services are being overrun and overwhelmed. This illustrates how far and high corruption rises in government.

Yet, the lawlessness grows like a runaway cancer. Denver Mayor Hickenlooper broke immigration laws before becoming mayor. Instead of going to prison, he laughs at the law even while one of his hired employees killed Officer Don Young in cold blood. The City Council of Boulder, Colorado snores while its sanctuary policy helped eight illegals rape eight Boulder women. The Boulder city mayor sighs while Dale EnglerthÂ’s family suffers from their fatherÂ’s death at the hands of a drunken Mexican who had been stopped nine times before killing Englerth.

I can write about Colorado with only 300,000 illegals and see the lawlessness first hand because I live there. States like North Carolina with over 1,000,000 illegals suffer consequences three times that of Colorado. Chicago has turned into another Mexico. Miami is now North Havana, Cuba!

Bear-Stearns’ report last year showed $400 billion in unpaid IRS taxes by illegal aliens annually and exposed it as the world’s second largest underground economy. Who makes up that money? You do! The report didn’t show the $60 billion in cash transfers being sent out of our country annually! While cheating, raping, stealing and killing us—they send our money back home.

Take a guess at the cost of illegal aliens in state and federal prisons annually. Try a whopping $1.6 billion to keep over 500,000 illegal aliens and legal criminal felon immigrants locked up! They equal 29 percent of all criminals in our prisons. ThatÂ’s after theyÂ’ve committed crimes of rape, murders, robberies, child molestation, drug trade, sex trade and worse on our citizens.

When this Congress and president blissfully sit by making excuses for illegal aliens in our country, against our laws, against our Constitution--while law-abiding American citizens get their hearts cut out—it’s disgusting, sickening and pathetic at the highest levels of government. It’s even more sickening when you realize that their corruption grows with such men as lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Worse, Abramoff got caught while God knows how many like him don’t get caught! If we dug deeper, we’d find that corruption is a way of life for who knows how many of our elected senators and congressmen. How many more Duke Cunningham’s ($2.4 million in kickback bribes) and Tom Delay’s are out there lying, cheating and screwing Americans out of money and out of our country—all for the green back dollar?

I canÂ’t wait for the investigation to show the $8 billion unaccounted for as to expenditures in Iraq as reported on CBS Evening News last Friday, February 10, 2006. Anyone want to bet that HalliburtonÂ’s abuse of our war dollars will be a bigger scandal than Abramoff? WhatÂ’s worse, our young men and women are getting killed while those people at Halliburton get rich.

The lawlessness doesn’t stop there. Third World corruption infects every sector of our society. Employers of illegals relish income tax evasion. They force Americans out of jobs. Consequently, our working poor stand in food stamp lines, unemployment lines, welfare lines and other avenues of degradation. Can you imagine the fraud of the H-1B, H-2B and L-t visas? Our finest high tech workers suffer displacement by cheap Third World immigrants who work the same jobs for peanuts. Somebody enriches their wallet at the expense of Americans. Our citizens become victims of illegal alien crime, drugs, school chaos and drunken highway madness.”

This is the reason I maintain the position that every law abiding citizen should be armed and ready, I may not see it in my lifetime, but at some point you may have to defend yourself and family against those that we allowed to come here illegally.  This is an open invitation to anyone who does not believe this is a real and present threat to the American way of life to come to Texas and experience it for your self.  If the above problems have not shown up in your neighborhood yet, hang loose it won't be long before you can see them first hand.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a house burglar an un-invited house guest.

Offline Savage .250

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« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2006, 02:40:15 AM »
Guys:
      Good commentary.  Nothing lik a multi-sided "give and take" on what
      has become a very hot topic.
      Views expressed show conviction with facts (which some dispute) that
      add substance to any discussion.
      A lot has been said about this and that plus Our "elected" officals
      are playing to a mob of illegals that are demanding citizenship.
       That old saying," the squeaky wheel gets the grease" looks like a
       natural fit here.  
     Not like most of our forefathers who stood in line,metaphorically
      speaking, waiting their turn to enter this country legally!  
     Our country was built on legal immigration and those "legal" folks
      built a solid foundation for the rest of us.  Now we`re going to
      throw all our immigration statutes out the window just to accommodate
      people who disrespect our laws, bully the gov`t ( marching in the
      streets waving THEIR MEXICAN flag) ............ Maybe some on here
      are but not this old boy !!  
      Is it just me or has the issue of ......closing the border,the illegal
      one,  really been addressed? There by forcing all who wish to
      enter, to do so through a legal entry point. Seems like all the talk is
      about jobs, education,etc but not about the crown jewel in this whole
       mess the 700 mile Mexican highway. Oops, i mean border.
       Just some thoughts as my real opinion is not printable. :D
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline powderman

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« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2006, 03:25:02 AM »
SAVAGE250. WEll said Sir, I agree. POWDERMAN.  :D  :D  :D  :D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2006, 04:41:46 AM »
Why all illegals are thieves

by Craige McMillan

There is a widespread perception that illegal immigrants – primarily from Mexico – are decent, hardworking people and we should give them a break. Many illegals no doubt view themselves this way.

They are wrong. Every person who walks across the U.S. border in an attempt to gain the benefits of U.S. residency or citizenship without paying the price of legal entry is a thief. He has stolen the most valuable commodity that any of us possess – our birthright and identity as American citizens.

Not only has the illegal stolen the identity of native-born Americans, he has stolen the good name of the legal immigrants who daily help to build this nation in the tradition of all Americans – for we are all immigrants. The difference is that whether our families immigrated while standing on the deck of the Mayflower, or by trudging past immigration officers on Ellis Island – our families paid the price being asked of those who wanted to become Americans.

Illegals chose not to pay that price. Instead, they saw U.S. citizenship sitting on the shelf, tucked it underneath their coat, and walked out the door with it. Their thievery must be especially poignant to those who have invested their hopes, dreams, sweat and tears to pay for this great prize.

An illegal's thievery does not end with the stolen identity of American citizenship. For many, that is just the beginning. Their bogus citizenship opens the doors to publicly funded assistance for those in need, publicly funded education for their children, up to and including state colleges and universities. It provides publicly funded health care for those unable to pay, and finally publicly funded retirement and Medicare for the aged. Not a bad haul for a thief who never paid a dime for his stolen identity.

Those who support this thievery – often under the guise of compassion – are no better than the thieves themselves. By aiding and abetting the thieves, these misguided citizens are stealing from their countrymen who "work hard and play by the rules." If they are public officials, then they have violated their sacred oath to protect our nation (20 percent of all federal prisoners are illegals), and their promise to us to "see that the laws be faithfully executed" was a lie. If they are school administrators struggling with difficult budgets, they are stealing from taxpayers, families and the children of lawful citizens – and giving the proceeds to thieves. If they are employers, they are stealing from their workers – who would receive higher pay and benefits for their work – had their birthright as an American not been stolen from them.

As the well-organized citizenship demonstrations have shown, illegal immigrants already feel entitled to have lawful American citizens accommodate their thievery. Unlike those who worked for the prize, illegals have no interest in assimilation – only the goodies that their stolen American identity can provide.

Does assimilation matter? If you saw the TV previews of burning cars and Muslim "youths" rioting in France, you will have an idea of what to expect here if Congress permits the continued growth of illegal immigrant enclaves in America.

What to do? Several things come to mind:

Exact a serious price for illegal immigration. Any change in the law could allow a 30-day exit amnesty for illegals residing here – time enough to pack up, go home, and apply for legal residence status and legal entry into this country. Beyond that, make illegal entry or residing here illegally a felony that bars the individual from ever becoming an American citizen. Those who are truly interested in citizenship and assimilation will make the trip.

Cut off all public assistance to illegals and their children. Provide them with a Homeland Security charter bus ticket home. Prosecute public employees who provide such assistance for theft of taxpayer monies, fire them, and put them in jail.

Put the National Guard and the Army on the U.S.-Mexican border until we can technologically secure it. Give the tools and the mission to commanders. Treat it as the military mission that it is.

Apply tax and trade sanctions against companies shipping goods from Mexico if Mexican officials do not begin cooperating with our efforts to secure our borders.

Provide biometric identification to visitors and legal resident aliens, and make verification available to schools, public agencies, police and employers.

Make sure no illegal ever votes in a federal, state or local election. This will reduce pandering by elected officeholders.

No more amnesty. No more misguided compassion. Let's roll out the red carpet for those who want to become Americans, and roll up the drawbridge on the rest of them, before they burn down the castle.


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49621

 :wink:
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2006, 05:01:13 AM »
FWiedner
Very good & I couldn't agree more. Hard to argue with this but I bet it will be.  :D
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2006, 05:31:55 AM »
Fweidner, if I understand you, you are against illegal immigration.

Me too. As I've said many times throughout this thread.

One of the things that seems to be occurring in this discussion is that if I disagree with some of the reasons for people being opposed to illegal immigration, or if I don't have the same view of the problem they represent to our society, then I must favor illegal immigration.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I can take issue with the reasoning behind a person's statements without disagreeing on the overall issue of illegal immigration. For example, many have raised economic objections. I've seen data that indicates that the issue is not as clearcut as some here think. Bringing that up doesn't mean I am in favor of illegal immigration. It means I am taking issue with the way someone has arrived at a decision.

I am not concerned at all about the language issue. By the next generation, unless their children want the same lousy jobs illegal immigrants now have, they'll be speaking English.  

I think the jury is still out on the economic impact. People tend to find data that supports their viewpoint and it is hard to consider counter-intuitive arguments. Yet it is possible that by selectively viewing the data, a misinformed viewpoint can be reinforced. I think that the overall economic impact has yet to be determined. I  DO know that the studies I've seen on this thread do not address the issue of consumption demand.

I think the "national identity" argument is racist at its base, as evidenced by the quote from Woodridge. Here is a guy that sees Hispanics as a fifth column, ready to secretly undermine our society. He sees immigrants from Mexico, illegal or not, as having social mores and morals that are inferior to our own and letting them in would be the end of America. In the last bit, he advises people to stock up on ammunition for the coming race war. If that isn't racist, nothing is.

Yet not all people who believe in the "national identity" argument are racist. I think some are merely xenophobic, which I think is pretty natural. This gets expressed as agreeing with a racist argument, but in the end, I think it is just fear of change. Natural enough, but in my view, misguided. Everything changes. America is the product of many such changes. That sort of flexibility distinguishes us from older, more ossified societies.

I'm against illegal immigration mostly because it means our borders are not secure. I'm more concerned about that than anything else. Secure the borders and the illegal immigration issue becomes irrelevant - there won't BE an illegal immigration problem worth worrying about if we can secure the borders.

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2006, 07:10:38 AM »
Mr. Daks;

Yes.  I am against illegal immigration.

I believe that each of my posts have been consistent in reflecting that view

I've not criticized either you or your discussion points, but I have offered my opinion to disagree with your rosey interpretation of history and the impact that this santioned lawlessness and national surrender will have on posterity.

I take particular issue with your generous use of what you obviously believe to be some sort of social indictment or moral trump.  That being the "race" card.

It serves no purpose for me to claim either to be, or not to be, a racist, because either leaning has no factual bearing on the discussion.

Ethnocentrism is a human fact.  It is a cornerstone of human group survival.  To call it right or wrong is to deny and criticize every turn of human history.  To be distrustful of things and people that are different is both natural and normal.

Your continuing play of that race card renders your entire argument, whatever other points you may have to make, irrelevant, because you overtly and incorrectly choose to discount the single most important motivation of those who disagree with your politically corrected examples of the successes of mass immigration.

The citizens of this nation expect their government to defend our borders and our way of life against massive criminal invasion.  This immigrant population respects neither this nation and it's peoples, our traditions, laws, or the ways of life that we hold dear.  By any definition they are a foreign enemy bent on conquest and plunder.

To continue to call recognition of these facts racism is a studied and deliberate ignorance of the foundation issue.

Whether or not you are for or against illegal immigration, it should be sufficient to say that I disagree with your outlook on the subject.

 :?
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2006, 08:26:09 AM »
When an argument is predicated on racial prejudice, it is racism by definition. That's the definition of the word. Wooldridge's thoughts are blatant racism. Calling it "playing the race card" is disingenuous on your part. Racism is what he espouses.

Words have definitions and whether you like those definitions or not is beside the point. What counts is whether the definition fits. Wooldridge fits the definition of a racist and I'll continue to call attention to that fact despite the fact that it is uncomfortable for those that agree with him to hear it.

Calling illegal immigrants a foreign enemy bent on conquest and plunder is ridiculous. It is hyperbole and exaggeration. The same arguments you make about their disrespect for our traditions, laws, way of life, etc., were all made against the Irish, the Italians, the Slavs, the Germans yet the sky, despite people's fears, did not fall. By the second generation, these people were well on the way to full acculturation. I expect the same will be true here as well.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2006, 08:45:04 AM »
From the American Friends Service Committe website, regarding nativism being a thinly-disguised form of racism:

Nativism in U.S. History

“Nativism,” or the idea that only U.S. “natives” really belong here, is not new to this country. Nativism is a thinly disguised form of racism, in which “natives” are tacitly understood to be people of European descent — a category that has expanded since the end of World War II to include southern and eastern Europeans, Catholics, and Jews, although it originally applied exclusively to northern and western European Protestants.


For the past 150 years, attitudes towards immigrants have changed cyclically, often undergoing rapid shifts in response to economic or political conditions. In periods of social and economic turmoil, such as the years following World War I or the post–World War II McCarthy Era, anti-immigrant sentiments tend to flare up as people look for someone to blame. During times of economic growth and social stability, nativism tends to die down. As always, it is difficult to tell to what extent media and political figures reflect public attitudes, and to what extent they create them.

Politicians have often turned waves of nativist feeling to political advantage, voting in policies that penalize immigrants. Two particularly clear examples are the Chinese Exclusion Act of the late 1800s, which banned Chinese-born laborers from entering the country, and “Operation Wetback,” in which more than 500,000 people of Mexican descent (including numerous U.S. citizens) were rounded up and deported during the Depression of the 1930s.

Nativism Today

Anti-immigrant feeling ran high in the early 1990s — partly because the country faced a prolonged recession, and partly because of the marked growth of immigration, particularly to California. Some observers believe that the growth of anti-immigrant sentiment in that period was also a reflection of racial anxieties among the white population, as it became increasingly obvious that white Americans would eventually cease to be the majority — a shift that has already occurred in California and is projected to occur by 2050 for the country as a whole.

In addition, a series of economic changes related to globalization were becoming increasingly apparent to most U.S. working people. Such changes included steadily declining real wages, shrinking benefits and protections, the marked growth of temporary and contingent jobs, declining rates of unionization, increasing privatization, cutbacks in health care and education, and the like. Although most of these changes may be traced back to the early 1970s, it was not until the 1990s that they became more widely recognized and discussed.

In 1994, California voters passed an anti-immigrant measure known as Proposition 187, a law that excluded undocumented immigrants from public schools, medical assistance, and other government services. That year, a New York Times/CBS News survey found that 61 percent of U.S. residents thought that immigration levels should be reduced, up from 49 percent in 1986. Although Proposition 187 was ultimately ruled unconstitutional, many of the same measures were incorporated in federal legislation passed in 1996.

The end of the 1990s brought a period of economic expansion and rising wage levels, and anti-immigrant sentiment grew more muted in many parts of the country. The tide turned once again, however, following the World Trade Center attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Now, however, rather than being stigmatized as an economic drain, immigrants are demonized as dangerous terrorists, as the violent acts of a few extremists are blamed on all immigrants, regardless of who they are or why they are here.

Vigilantes and Hate Groups

Anti-immigrant politics have also given rise to an increase in vigilante activity, particularly in the U.S.-Mexico border region. Vigilantes have vowed to stop “illegal” immigration by patrolling the border with binoculars and guns, “arresting” at gunpoint anyone they presume to be an undocumented immigrant. Despite the threat of bloodshed, several political figures have defended such vigilante activity, including former INS Commissioner Doris Meissner, who has said that ranchers near the border “have legitimate concerns about the trespassers on their property.” In one 17-month period in 1999 and 2000, at least 30 incidents of vigilante violence were reported in a single section of the Arizona-Mexico border. Other ranchers, by contrast, have installed humanitarian aid stations on their land to assist border crossers who might otherwise face sickness or death due to dehydration.

Some vigilante activity is supported by white supremacist hate groups. A recent report by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), which monitors the activity of hate groups, describes organized anti-immigrant networks on the radical right. Groups such as the National Organization for European American Rights (NOFEAR), formed by former Klansman David Duke, and the Council of Conservative Citizens overtly promote racial hatred, using vicious language to attack immigrants. The SPLC report describes their views as follows:

In the eyes of most of these groups, immigrants (typically, nonwhite immigrants) are responsible for nearly all the country’s ills, from poverty and inner city decay to crime, urban sprawl, and environmental degradation. Many of them also believe there is a secret plot by the Mexican government and American Hispanics to wrest the Southwest away from the United States in order to create “Aztlan,” a Hispanic nation. (“Blood on the Border,” SPLC Intelligence Report, Spring 2001)

The “Greening of Hate”

In another development during the 1990s, a new form of anti-immigrant ideology took hold, based on claims that immigrants degrade the environment. Since U.S. residents consume resources at a higher rate than people in developing countries, the story goes, immigrants who come here are transformed from low-rate consumers to high-rate consumers, negatively impacting the earthÂ’s environment. Similarly, immigrants are blamed for degrading the quality of life in U.S. communities, by creating more congestion and urban sprawl and less open wilderness. These arguments scapegoat immigrants for the wasteful and destructive consumption patterns of the worldÂ’s wealthiest nation.

Anti-immigrant groups like Negative Population Growth or the Carrying Capacity Network are essentially offering a recycled form of arguments for population control. This view identifies “overpopulation” as the source of the world’s ills — with the planetary “excess” population once again tacitly understood to consist of people of color. Once accepted with little question, population control ideology was widely and successfully challenged in the 1970s and 1980s — both by Third World–oriented movements arguing that inequities in the distribution and control of the world’s resources are the primary cause of global hunger and poverty, and by women’s movements around the world arguing that women, not governments, should control their own reproductive decisions.

Some historians trace this type of “scientific racism” back to the original Malthusianism of the 1700s; as each successive form of this ideology has been discredited, a new one has emerged to take its place. The concept of “overpopulation,” for example, emerged when the turn-of-the-century “eugenics” movement, which began in the United States, became permanently associated with the atrocities of Nazi Germany. A generation later, as population control fell out of favor, anti-immigrant environmentalism emerged to take its place. In this most recent manifestation, anti-immigrant ideologues have sought to enlist mainstream environmental groups such as the Sierra Club in their cause — so far without success.

Roots of Anti-Immigrant Activism

European Americans have held a dominant position in the United States, both culturally and politically, for the countryÂ’s entire history. Among some whites, racial anxieties over losing their majority status have lead to a backlash, combining with resistance to multiculturalism and other movements that seek to include communities of color as equal partners in all aspects of U.S. society.

White supremacist groups tend to seek members among low-income whites, especially those who have been most deeply affected by deindustrialization and other forms of economic dislocation, channeling their anger and frustration over their own condition toward a clear target — people of color.

Some of the more sophisticated anti-immigrant groups, meanwhile, have tried to reach out to African Americans and other U.S.-born communities of color by including them among the “natives” who are threatened by immigration. While such groups may disavow the overtly racist rhetoric of hate groups, they nonetheless advance the same type of arguments in more “respectable” language. For example, according to the SPLC, the mainstream anti-immigrant group Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which claims 70,000 members, has worked collaboratively with white supremacist hate groups. Conservative politicians like Patrick Buchanan, meanwhile, combine populist rhetoric on economic issues with racist, anti-immigrant, and anti-Semitic ideology.

The overt racism of hate groups and the more subtle bigotry of mainstream anti-immigrant organizations both serve to divide people who might otherwise find common ground in social struggles for justice. While they may attract followers with the power of their rhetoric, such anti-immigrant movements do nothing to address the root causes of suffering — the economic, social, and political structures that maintain an unjust and increasingly unequal distribution of wealth, power, and privilege. Instead, they substitute a lethal combination of resentment, scapegoating, and hatred — the classic recipe for fascism.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2006, 09:26:11 AM »
Racism is racism. Doesn't matter who is practicing it. Trying to view anyone claiming racism as seeking political power indicates that one does not believe anything is truly racism.

What I don't like is when someone claims racism when there is no reason for it, like that McKinney is doing down in Atlanta. She's made a career out of being "oppressed". Or when someone claims racism is behind not giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses in California. I just roll my eyes at that.

But when Frosty Wooldridge starts doing his thing, I hear racism loud and clear.

I don't think you are going to seriously claim that earlier immigrant groups did not meet entrenched resistance. After all, a political party was formed solely for the purpose of expressing nativist sentiments. That is a very comfortable statement, made from the luxury of 150 years of separation in time. I don't think that if you spent a lot of time investigating the time period you'd come to the same conclusion.

Your last sentence indicates that you do not believe there is such a thing as racism. Is that true? That is a common view of the privileged class, explaining away any inconvenient judgments of their positions as simply political in nature, not to be taken seriously. Dismissing those who recognize racism for what it is allows these people to avoid confronting their own prejudices.

I'd like not to think of you as one of these folks.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2006, 09:30:23 AM »
From the Wikipedia, under "nativism"

The term "nativism" is normally applied only to nativists of European stock, and accused by some of being a nationalist element of racism. Nativism is a hostile and defensive reaction to the flux of immigration. Though it surfaced first, gained a name and affected politics in mid-19th century United States, recognizably nativist movements have since arisen among the Boers of South Africa, and in the 20th century in Australia and Britain. In American history, nativism was always associated with fears that certain new immigrants might inject political and cultural values at odds with the American way of life.

American nativist sentiment experienced a resurgence in the late 20th century, this time directed at 'illegal aliens,' largely Mexican resulting in the passage of new penalties against illegal immigration in 1996. After terrorist attacks in New York City and Washington, D.C. in 2001, nativist feeling and islamophobia were amplified and directed increasingly toward individuals perceived to be either Arab and/or Muslim; these found themselves the target of rhetoric and a request by nativists to tighten border controls. The early 21st-century American movement that is self-characterized as "Immigration reduction" attempts to distance itself from any suggestion of Nativist motivations.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2006, 09:40:15 AM »
http://www.hsp.org/files/muirletter.pdf



The Nativist Press, 1854
THE KNOW-NOTHING: AND AMERICAN CRUSADER
15 July 1854
 
 
 
 
AMERICAN PLATFORMS
1.—Repeal of all Naturalization Laws.
2.—None but NATIVE AMERICANS for Office.
3.—A pure American Common School System.
4.—War to the hilt, on Romanism.
5.—Opposition, first and last, to the formation of Military Companies
composed of foreigners.
6.—The advocacy of a sound, healthy, and safe Nationality.
7.—Hostility to all Papal Influences, in whatever form, and under
whatever name.
8.—American Institutions and American Sentiments.
9.—More stringent and effective Emigration Laws.
10.—The amplest Protection to Protestant Interests.
11.—The doctrines of the revered WASHINGTON and his compatriots.
12.—The sending back of all Foreign Paupers landed on our shores.
13.—The formation of Societies to protect all American Interests.
14.—Eternal enmity to all who attempts to carry out the principles of a
foreign Church or State.
15.—Our Country, our whole Country, and nothing but our country.
16.—And finally,—American Laws and American Legislation, and Death
to all Foreign Influences, whether in high places or low!
 
Naturalization Laws
This is our point: ENTIRE AND UNCONDITIONAL REPEAL.
Nothing short of this must be advocated or listened to by Native
Americans.  Half and half doctrines are fatal.  Milk-and-water
compromises will never do.  We must plant ourselves on solid,
massive, immovable ground.  'REPEAL' must be written in gigantic
letters on all our banners.  It is what we owe to our country to do.  
There is no dodging the issue.  The Naturalization Laws must be
repealed.
 
Some one—some man who lacks patriotism, nationality, and all that is
great and good as an American—asks, perhaps, why?  We answer,  
Exploring Diversity in Pennsylvania History  www.hsp.org
1st.  Because we cannot preserve our nationality without it.  When the
hordes of other lands are permitted to come here, as is the case daily;
when ignorance, poverty, crime is allowed to land upon our shores and
be transformed, hardly without ceremony, and with no time to learn
the nature of our institutions, into what is called the 'American'
citizens—when these things are done, it is time that good men lifted
their arms and sounded their voices against the abomination.
 
2nd.  Because it is unjust to the Republic.  No man has a right to
perform an act of injustice to a nation.  We care not whether the
offense is defined in a written law, or not.  There is a right and a
wrong in this as in other matters.  Every man of intelligence must
understand it.  Making citizens of such stuff as too often seeks our
land is an injustice, the grossness of which can hardly be described.  It
should no longer be tolerated.  The laws which permit the crime should
at once be abolished.
 
3rd.  Because it is every day weakening the strength, and destroying
the character of the country.  America can only be America by keeping
it American.  Its halls of legislation must reflect American sentiment,
uttered by American tongues.  There is no avoiding this position.  
Americans must fill our offices, great and small.  To do this we must
cut off all change of foreigners getting such.  How?  By repealing
Naturalization Laws—by saying to foreigners, 'Gentlemen, you are
welcome to live in our country if you conduct yourself in a worthy
manner, but you must have no offices.  This is our land.  We own it.  
We mean to take care of it.  If you don't like things as you find them,
you can leave.  We only demand in this country what we should expect
in yours.'
 
4th.  Because these laws have already produced an immense amount
of evil, political, social, moral and religious.  Had we never had
Naturalization laws—and no country should ever have them—our
country would have possessed a hundred-fold the strength, efficiency,
political pursuits and symmetrical stature it now does.  It has been the
deadliest, most sad and ruinous course that has ever afflicted the
nation.  It  has opened the flood-gates of poison, and through its
moral and political St. Lawrences, Aroostooks, Potomacs, Ohios,
Mississippis and Rio Grandes is spreading disease and death in every
direction.  Never, never can this be stopped—never can the nation
become healthy and strong—until the means which permits this
greatest and most gigantic of misfortunes is done away with.  The
stream at the fountain must be made pure, or the branches will run
pollution.
Exploring Diversity in Pennsylvania History  www.hsp.org
 
 
5th.  Because it is an immense wrong to have such laws.  Even
allowing that the tide of emigration to this country was made up
mostly of intelligent, decent, patriotic men and women, the case would
not be changed.  To grant such full citizenship—to clothe them with
the full power of the American—would be a gross wrong, a violation of
all common sense and common justice.  How much more is the case
when ignorance, crime, poverty, all manner of baseness—when
traitors, ruffians, moral, political, civil murderers—are granted this
same citizenship, which is done by the fifties and hundreds every day
in this city of Boston, and in almost every part of the land.  The first
path that is trodden from the ship's deck is often to the office where
this legalized crime, in the shape of Naturalization, is performed.  Do
any wonder why Americans desire these enormities to be abolished?  
Do any wonder why a just patriotism and a lofty principle execrates
the monsters who are engaged in this crime?
 
6th.  Because we are false to the Republic if we fail to effect this
repeal.  We must either go for it, and be on the side of the Republic, or
go against it and oppose the Republic.  The point is clear as sunlight.  
No man can sustain the present Naturalization laws and be a friend of
the Republic.  It is an impossible thing.  It is only by still more
Americanizing America—Americanizing its sentiment, institutions,
genius, native masses—that our mission and destiny can be achieved.  
Depend upon it that the initial step to this is a THOROUGH,
UNCONDITIONAL REPEAL OF ALL NATURALIZATION LAWS.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2006, 09:41:47 AM »
The Anti-Catholic Press, 1854
THE KNOW-NOTHING: AND AMERICAN CRUSADER
29 July 1854
 
 
 
BOUND TO SERVE THE CHURCH BEFORE THE COUNTRY
We must not let this fact go-by—the Roman Catholics are bound to serve their
Church before their Country.
What is the practical and inevitable result of such a system in this country?  Why,
that every Catholic stands committed as an enemy to the Republic.  In such a
character, base as it is—reeking all over, soaked all through with a religion that
countenance crime; with principals that are shocked at no extremity of corruption—
their whole effect is to pull down Republicanism and bolster up Romanism.  This it
does.  It is seen.  The thing is plain.  It can't be otherwise.  A man who is a Roman
Catholic is not a Republican.  He can't be.  Calling fish, flesh, don't make it so.  
Hence whatever is told you of Catholicism as favorable to all that is American, put no
faith in it.  The Pope of Rome says America must be crushed—and all political
economists of any note or weight, agree that if it is ever crushed, it will be by
Romanism.
Let us remember these matters.  Let us regard every Roman Catholic as an enemy
to the country—and so treat him.  He is nothing else.
 
 
NONE BUT AMERICANS FOR OFFICE
Such is one of the planks of our platform.  It involved a great principle—and one
which the Americans accept heartily.  It is sound.  It is just.  It is what should be the
fact.  America, we take it, is the land of Americans.  It is theirs.  Its offices, its
destiny, its genius, its laws, institutions, should all be in their hands and keeping.  
Not an office in this whole land should be filled by any but Americans.  There is a full
supply.  They are all capable.  They are intelligent, patriotic and all that.  Then where
is the logic, justice, even decency, of permitting foreigners to hold these places.
It is painful to look at affairs in Washington.  Many of the best offices there,—in the
very heart of the nation—there where for example, word, action, foes forth all over
the land—are filled by foreigners.  And two-thirds of those are IRISH.
Let the cry go forth—NONE BUT NATIVE AMERICANS FOR OFFICE!
 
 
THIS, THAT AND THE OTHER
• The Roman Catholic Priest is a queer institution.  He makes people commit crime,
then pay for it, and then goes and commits it himself.  Nothing like the Priest.
Exploring Diversity in Pennsylvania History  www.hsp.org
 
• The Fourth July was celebrated in London, in fine style.  Uncle Sam and Victoria
were toasted, and Hail Columbia, God Save the Queen, Yankee Doodle and other
luxuries enjoyed.  Some country, that England.
• The New Bedford Mercury, after several columns of abuse of the new
organization known as the "Know-Nothings." Has taken the back track, and
expresses itself highly delighted with it, in several very pretty little items.
• About fifty Irishmen set upon half dozen of the Portland police, the other night,
with a view of giving them a most unmerciful beating.  The police were too smart
for the scoundrels, and jugged them all.
• The Pope of Rome weighs 300.  The size and weight of his body, is in striking
contrast with that of his mind.
 
 
WHAT YOU SEE IF YOU LOOK SHARP
1—A very excited state of mind among foreigners.
2—Roman Catholic priests cutting up all sorts of disgraceful didos.
3—The American party rolling up its forces for the coming political warfare.
4—Old politicians shaking in their breeches, as though they had a double and twisted
fever and ague.
5—Eleven prominent cities electing pure Native American officers.
6—By looking very sharp, on tip-toe, a Native American President taking his seat in
the White House in 1856, March 4th.
Not bad to look at, these things—not a bit.
 
 
THINGS WHICH ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS AND ALL TRUE ROMAN
CATHOLICS HATE
Providence, July 22, 1854
1.  They HATE our Republic, and are trying to overthrow it.
2.  They HATE the American Eagle, and it offends them beyond endurance to see it
worn as an ornament by Americans.
3.  They HATE our Flag, as it manifest by their grossly insulting it.
4.  They HATE the liberty of conscience.
5.  They HATE the liberty of the Press.
6.  They HATE the liberty of speech.
7.  They HATE our Common School system.
8.  They HATE the Bible, and would blot it out of existence if they could!
9.  The Priests HATE married life, and yet by them is fulfilled the Scripture, to wit:
'more are the children of the desolate, than the children of the married wife.'
10.  They HATE Protestants, and are sworn to exterminate them from our country
and the earth.
11.  They HATE the name of WASHINGTON, because he was a Republican and
Protestant.
Exploring Diversity in Pennsylvania History  www.hsp.org
 
12.  They HATE all rulers that do not swear allegiance to the Pope of Rome.
13.  They HATE to be ruled by Americans, and say 'WE WILL NOT BE RULED BY
THEM!'
14.  They HATE to support their own paupers and they are left to be supported by
the tax paying Americans.
15.  They HATE, above all, the 'Know-Nothings,' who are determined to rid this
country from their accursed power.

Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2006, 09:48:52 AM »
Did anyone indicate that only "Natives" belong here? I don't think so if
Immigrants are "Legal", the point of the whole discussion. Not one person here has a problem with Legal Immigration, or am I wrong?

I know that supposedly I am "ignored" by the opposing view, but the result will be identical if I am or if I am not. Yes, my first post was alittle
strong & I should not have done that, but I knew where this would go, as there is no logical rebuttal & the race card will get tossed out there as long as this thread lives.

Gentlemen, alot of good, well thought out post have been presented, but
FWiedner, I told you so, Sir.  :D
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.


Offline Daks

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« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2006, 10:01:02 AM »
For another point of view:

From the Atlantic Monthly, 1896, written by Francis Walker, President of MIT:

"The Italians who have recently come in such vast numbers to our shores do not constitute a desirable element of the population, either socially or politically . . . Does the Italian come because the Irishman refuses to work in ditches and trenches, in gangs; or has the Irishman taken this position because the Italian has come? . . . f the administrators of Baron HirshÂ’s estate send to us two millions of Russian Jews, we shall soon find the Italians standing on their dignity, and deeming themselves too good to work on streets and sewers and railroads. But meanwhile, what of the republic? What of the American standard of living? What of the American rate of wages?

The immigrant of former times came almost exclusively from western and northern Europe . . . Only a short time ago, the immigrants from southern Italy, Hungary, Austria and Russia together made up hardly more than one percent of our immigration. Today the proportion has risen to something like forty percent and threatens soon to become fifty of sixty percent, or even more. The entrance into our political, social, and industrial life of such vast masses of peasantry, degraded below our utmost conceptions, is a matter which no intelligent patriot can look upon without the gravest apprehension and alarm. These people . . . are beaten men from beaten races.

Within the decade between 1880 and 1890 five and a quarter millions of foreigners entered our ports!...The problems which so sternly confront us today are serious enough without being complicated and aggravated by the addition of some millions of Hungarians, Bohemians, Poles, south Italians, and Russian Jews."

Sound familiar?

Offline jimster

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« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2006, 11:51:20 AM »
Well, might as well put my 2 cents in I guess.

I'm not against anyone immigrating here...legally.
If they come here breaking the law, I have a problem with it.
If I have to pay for the illegal people to be here, I have a problem with it.

If ya want to protest,  you should be a legal citizen to be able to protest anything at all in our country. If your illegal and protesting, you best be waving an AMERICAN flag, not your countries flag, or I ain't going to be happy about it.

I'm not racist at all.  That's got nothing to do with it, and that term is used to make folks like me feel bad.  I don't feel bad for the way I think.

There then...got it all out.