Author Topic: Immigration  (Read 7212 times)

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Offline Savage .250

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« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2006, 11:58:31 AM »
Guys:
  We`ve gone from Mexican`s marching in the streets of our cities(some)
        demanding their "rights" as illegals to the full benefit
         package of citizens of this country because they do all the jobs that
        Americans don`t want.  I think that`s correct.
          That they say justifies their being here illegally as with out them
         our economy would falter. I guess apples will go up in price.
        I wonder, if after they become CITIZENS and get all those perks
        will they still want those lousy jobs? I`ll bet once they get like us
        those jobs will be beneath them so bring on the next wave of illegals.
        Oops, future citizens.  
         No, we`re safe.........................by then the border will be secured
         after all in 2007 all people crossing the border, Canada included,
          will need a passport or other gov`t documents.  Really!
           :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D
          The original problem "illegal entry" which is against the law, is still
          the issue at hand. Lots of other issues have shown up, does th word
          tangent  fit here? How did this thing get off course? Philosophical
           differences aside.
          I`m not quoting anybody, i`m not referencing material by others,
          and i can`t work in the " R" word.  Just some afternoon
          thoughts.  
          I just learned a Mexican word.........amnesty.   :D
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline beemanbeme

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« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2006, 12:36:16 PM »
Everyone here needs to dust off an old copy of Phillip Wylies "It can't happen here." Written about 50 or 60 years ago. We start out needed passports to visit Canada and Mexico.  Then we need identity cards to travel from state to state.  Then we have quotas of how many can visit where.  Then, thanks to modern technology, they implant "locator chips" in our heads at birth.  Of course, all of this will be done under the guise of making it safer for the chirrun.

Duk, I didn't begin to read those long rants of yours but regarding the Catholics (I ain't one). A whole lot of good catholic boys fought and died in Italy in WW2 so hate mongers like you could rattle on.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2006, 03:04:05 PM »
Um, well, beemanbeme, if you HAD read the anti-Catholic postings I put up, you'd have realized that the point I was making was in response to TM7, who pooh-poohed the conditions the Irish found themselves in when they came to this world. Far from being my own sentiment, I was making the point that Catholics, like myself, faced a great deal of bigotry. I was showing that historically, there has been a tremendous amount of bias that immigrants have faced in our history. They were not my sentiments - they were the sentiments that others in the mid 1800's had and which Catholics overcame.

Try reading the posts before commenting. That way you'll at least know which side the major ranters are on. I'll save you some time - I'm against anti-Catholic bigotry.

Savage, check out the quote from Francis Walker. He said much the same thing regarding willingness to do the lousy jobs of our economy.

Jimster, some folks are using the word "racist" in order to gain traction in a debate. These folks use the term to try to silence critics. These are the McKinney's of the world, or the folks who see "racism" when California refuses to grant illegal immigrants driver's licenses. Yeah, those folks are trying to make you feel bad.

But there ARE racists out there and trying to claim that this issue has NO racial overtones is nonsense. I read Wooldridge and I hear a racist from head to toe. The "race card" is oftentimes in reverse - by claiming that someone is using the term as a ploy to win a debate, these people can trivialize the charge, pre-emptively attacking those who would attack them. The "race card" is being played by them just as assuredly as it is being played by those who want to scream racism at every stubbed toe.

The problem is separating the real racists in this debate, such as Wooldridge, from others expressing xenophobia, such as TM7. Another problem is that racists won't admit to being racist very often and others don't even recognize it when they are one. I've been pretty careful not to call anyone a racist who is a member here. I've said they were making a racist argument but not that they were racists.

TM7, the fact that the bigotry that Catholics here were subjected to might be seen as an extension of the Protestant/Catholic wars of Europe is sort of beside the point of it being real and presenting an obstacle to be overcome here. I read your post as being dismissive of the bigotry Catholics here faced and I wanted to show that it was real and pervasive.

It is true that many Irish went to the frontier but a lot more stayed put in the major cities. Hence, the riots, which I also posted about. The frontier did not provide the "safety valve" you  seem to think it did since the population of the frontier was far far less than the number of immigrants coming into the ports. Most of the immigrants remained in the big cities, especially during the Industrial period, where the immigrants were mostly from Eastern and Southern Europe. By that time, the frontier was closed.

I also take issue with your assertion that the problem can be characterized strictly by "common folks (who) just want law enforced and common international conventions maintained." That might be what you want but if you read Wooldridge, you'll note that there are real honest-to-Pete racists out there who have other motivations entirely. When you say that recognizing the fact that there are actual racists out there "is an attempt to stigmatize and radicalize the migration issue", you are perhaps generalizing from your own position which I can guarantee you is NOT the only motivation for those also trying to address this issue.

That, to me, is a major problem people have on this issue. They figure that because their motivations are not necessarily racist, then anyone using the term "racism" is out to just gain the upper hand in the debate, nothing more. Yet there are true racists weighing in on this issue. Nativism in general has a component of racism. Not everyone who is a nativist is a racist but some truly are. Failing to recognize that fact is part of the problem you and I are having. You don't believe yourself to be a racist and you probably are not. I don't believe I am either. Both of us want strong borders which, by necessity, means NO illegal immigration (or danged little of it, since no system is perfect).

Yet there are people like Wooldridge who also want no illegal immigration and strong borders but who is nothing BUT a racist. So racism IS a component to this debate. It can't be dismissed by claiming that anyone who brings this fact up is just trying to stigmatize the debate.

The problem comes when, just as we realize that there are racists weighing in on the issue of illegal immigration, there are other people willing to claim racism for exactly the reasons you mention, to gain political advantage. Not everyone using the term "racism" is just looking to gain the upper hand in a debate, but some are.

So there people who want strong borders so we can be assured of some orderly process to immigration and there are others who are racists who want want strong borders to keep out inferior human beings. That's one group. Then there are people who recognize racists when they see them and say so, and there are others who say so just because they want to get a bit of advantage in the debate. That's another group.

Just gotta be sure of what group you are actually in and if you are, who  cares what the other group thinks? I mean really, if you are not a racist, why worry about whether someone thinks you are? Why give them that much power over you? And if someone is not looking merely for a debating advantage when they evaluate someone's position as being grounded in racism, why should they care if someone thinks that they are looking for debating advantage?

I forget which John Wayne movie it was in, but one of his characters said that as long as he knows his motivations are good ones, he is seldom concerned what other people think of them.

Not a bad way to be.

Offline powderman

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« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2006, 04:04:01 PM »
FWEIDNER. Excellent post Sir, I agree. Common sense will get ya nowhere here. POWDERMAN.  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2006, 05:32:31 PM »
TM7, VC, rockbilly, powderman & others. This thread is useful if not only for the good posts but an indicater of the views out there. My Wife just called her sister & this subject came up. My Wife's sister is the opposite from my Wife (very Liberal on ALL points) & she doesn't believe that the
matter is a problem at all. My Wife made reference to some being on Welfare, Law Enforcement issues & many of the problems that have been discussed here, which was not believed at all. Here is the fun part, my sister-in-law lives in AZ.
She came close to saying my Wife has Racial issues (she knows better) & the std. , well they are doing work that others won't do. So there you go.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Huffmanite

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« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2006, 07:53:19 PM »
Above replies made interesting reading and good points made by all.  My two cents worth.  I have resided in the Houston, Tx area for over 50 years.  The growth in the illegal hispanic population from south of the Rio Grande river the last 20 years in our area can only be described as quite large, if not tremendous.  It is out of control and something definitely needs to be done about it.  I have no problem whatsoever with legal immigration.  Immigrants have always played a vital role in our country's history and have made many positive contributions and etc.  My wife is a first generation American with both her parents born in France and they saw fit to deny their daughter her right to have a dual citizenship.  They were American citizens by then and she was to be only an American.  They could have sent her to private schools for other French children like her living in New York City, but no.  She would go to public schools and learn how to be an American.  Her parents did ecouraged her to be proud of her French heritage and she can speak French so fluently that when we have visited France, the French people she spoke to in French were stunned to learn she was an American after hearing her speak to me in English with her still heavy New York City accent.  Let me end this reply by paraphrasing my wife's opinion on the current immigrants.  Too many don't want to be Americans, they want to make parts of the United States little Mexicos and that is not right.  I agree with her.

Offline Huffmanite

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« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2006, 08:22:34 PM »
Oh by the way, I own a Webster's dictionary published in 1850s.  The word racist not in it.  By early 1900s, Webster simply defined a racist as someone who was proud of his race.  The definition in Webster's dictionary certainly has changed.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #97 on: April 06, 2006, 11:53:21 PM »
Apparently, TM7, you haven't been reading my posts carefully enough. I said that the position that you were taking had racist overtones. That is not the same as saying you personally are a racist. The distinction was deliberate because I wanted to avoid calling anyone here a racist.

Gotta read 'em before you comment on 'em.

And as long as you know you aren't, why do you even care what I think?

In your last post, I was actually stating that "while you personally might not be a racist, others on this issue who are in favor of strong borders are." Such as Wooldridge. I brought up the issue of race because it is an element in this debate nationally as the quote from Wooldridge points out.

I also specifically condemned people who fling out the word racism in order to gain advantage in a debate. You apparently missed that as well. However, words DO have meaning and when someone like Wooldridge steps up and starts talking about a race war, claiming that anyone who says "Hey, that's racism" is a "race baiter" is trying to give people like him cover and I won't go for that. Seems like you might think that NO ONE is a racist or at least, no one you claim as an ally can be. I can guarantee you that you are incorrect in that assessment. There are lots of Wooldridge's out there.

But don't let any of that stop you from getting angry.  

Now as for being a xenophobe, yeah, that accurately describes your viewpoint.

National identity cleansing is what the Know Nothings and the anti-Catholic bigots felt was going on. Not real good company to be keeping. But guess what? We survived. And prospered. And the problem then was twice as large as it is today.  

Is the "wehategringos" site racism? Yep. But like I said earlier, racism is racism no matter who does it. I'll say it again - gotta read 'em before you comment on 'em.

Powderman: the comment that common sense will get ya nowhere here was just exactly what I was thinking. Of course, like you, I assume anyone who agrees with me has common sense and anyone who disagrees with me has none.

So it goes.

Offline jimster

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« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2006, 04:03:40 AM »
Huffmanite...good points....
When in America, be an American. When in France, or any other country, and planning to stay there...be what they are, and learn their ways and history, and learn their lauguage.

My Great grandfather was a full blooded Sweed, from the stories that are told, he was a hard worker, got here though legal means, learned to speak English (with an accent..."Yumpin Yimmimy").
America is a place to come and be free. We also have laws, some of which point to Americans having the right to be secure within our borders.
That should not be much to ask, just to be secure within our own land.
Since it's a fact that 30 percent of our prisons are filled with people who are not citizens, it seems not all Americans are secure in our own land.
I'm not a racist by any means, I realize America is made up of many different people from many places...however...we also have laws written in stone, and the right to be secure within our borders at all times.
I can secure my home...I can't do the borders, it's my governments job to do that, and by gosh, they better forget the politics and start getting on the stick, or there will be more Minutemen out there to take over this job, and I'll jump on that bandwagon myself someday if need be.
We simply can't support masses of people flooding our borders and our hospitals, and our jails and prisons.....borders first. Immigration policies can be next to tweak or fix or change, but secure borders MUST be the first move top fix anything. It is required by law.

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2006, 05:23:42 AM »
Jimstir, If your a white man then your a racist or so my other than white friends tell me.  They also tell me that only a white man can be racist and use some sort of perverted logic to further their arguement.

Quite honestly, the race card is played far to often.  Cynthia McKenney, slugged a captial hill policeman who while doing his job asked her to stop 3 times.  She justified her hitting the man by playing the race card.  Said he was profiling.

 I'm sick of hearing about racism.  The word racist has exceeded it's usefulness as the mear mention of it or the word sexual harassment gets those who use it a free pass on poor behavior.  

You think we're racist, and I'm okay with it.  Label us what you will and use it to your advantage.  Don't be suprised if we all don't immediatly snap to attention and comply with every demand though.....as the word has been way......way....over used to the point it's perceived as another shallow minded attempt to hide the real issues.

Enough of the racist BS......that simply isn't a valid arguement with me.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2006, 06:17:48 AM »
Quote from: Victorcharlie
Enough of the racist BS......that simply isn't a valid arguement with me.



There's one in the X ring...

 :D
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Daks

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« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2006, 09:11:13 AM »
"Enough of the racist BS......that simply isn't a valid arguement with me."

Ask me if I care.

I made a particular point NOT to call anyone a racist. I DID make the point that there are racists out there, such as Wooldridge, who are weighing in on this issue and their support for strong borders is based on racism. I believe that anyone wishing to maintain "national identity" is making an argument, whether they recognize it or not, based on racism. Why? Because they want their white, European culture to remain inviolate and fear losing majority status.

That doesn't necessarily make them a racist. It means their argument might be.

Your post is, in effect, telling me to shut up because you don't like what I say. Tough luck. I don't like what you are saying and you don't see me whining about you saying it.

Lots of people who are not racists make arguments that they don't even realize are racist in nature. The first thing any racist does, though, is to deny being one and claim foul because someone is "using the race card".

Could be true, as McKinney shows. On the other hand, I don't think Wooldridge thinks of himself as a racist though he surely is. Racists often tell themselves they are not.

But telling me to shut up because you don't like my posts? Or you don't like my argument? That's a demand that you all be nice and comfortable in your conservative forum, where you all reaffirm each other's opinions and hey, since we all agree, we must be right. Let someone come in and challenge the status quo and he is told to shut up.

So much for being open to different perspectives.

Most people don't want to hear alternative viewpoints. They only want to be confirmed in whatever opinion they presently hold. Hence, the amen's and "testify, brother, testify" hosannas that accompany the majority viewpoints opinions. Seems that is true here as well.

Done with this thread.

Offline powderman

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« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2006, 03:45:24 PM »
daks. You are on your own, don't believe anyone agrees with your beliefs, whatever they may be. About all I've learned from you is that you like to argue. I'm done with you. I hope a thousand illegals take up residence all around you. POWDERMAN.  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
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Offline Rogue Ram

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How about a different perspective?
« Reply #103 on: April 08, 2006, 11:56:28 AM »
So far I've read the responses, and it appears that here on this site, as is the case in the press and elsewhere, there is confusion over some important issues.  Am I an expert on immigration? No. Do I deal with illegals nearly EVERY DAY? Yes.

There are typical "illegal aliens" that are coming here to work. In 99.999% of the cases they use one of the Mexican money transfer companies run by dopers to send the money back home to their extended families. The US dollar goes a long way there, so to them its worth it. When caught, these people are deported. NOTICE THE WORD "WHEN". Once here and working they are virtually NEVER CAUGHT. NO, ICE (formerly INS) doesn't drive around grabbing them up. Only in isolated cases does that happen. These illegals buy houses, cars, etc etc etc using false or stolen social security numbers and live happily ever after. They can get education, medical care, etc etc all paid for by YOU.

So, who gets "in trouble" for being here illegally?  What is ICE doing?  ICE goes around to virtually every county jail in your state looking for illegals. If illegals are found, they are detained. When done with State time, they are either simply deported, OR (pay attention here) if they have a felony on their record (it is ALWAYS drug related) and previously deported, they are charged federally with two charges. In nearly EVERY case, these "aggravated illegal re-entry" cases are pled out resulting in a standard plea deal of 6 months on one charge 18 on the other, they go fill up YOUR FEDERAL PRISON for 2 years then they are deported.  

Folks, these types of illegals are so prevalent out there you have NO idea.  Out here in the West and in the South, these low lifes are EVERY WHERE. They come here, they sling dope, they make more money than you can imagine, they send it all home. And why not? If caught, they get deported. Come back, make more, get caught, 2 years in AIR CONDITIONING, good food, educational opportunities, health care (I have witnessed them coming back for health care purposes paid for by the U.S Bureau of Prisons), and then they get to go home.  Rarely do I see them come back again, that's like 6 years. Saw 2 come back the third fed time, think it was a 20 year sentence.

How to distinguish between your factory worker, landscaper, or construction worker illegal and a doper illegal? Good luck. Dangle big $$$ in front of a landscaper illegal, more money in a month than what he'll make in 5 years of landscaping what do you think he'll do?  I'm jaded. I admit it. No one will convince me after 20 years of dealing with these people that the "majority of them are here to do honest work."  Last year when teamed up with an ICE agent, and a local dope cop, in less than 10 minutes of trying each time, we grabbed 5 illegals, seized dozens of bindles of dope they were selling, seized thousands in cash, took their cars, and shut them down. Convicted, deported. They are EVERYWHERE. And the illegal re-enterers have filled up your prisons taking bed space reserved other federal criminals

Shut the border, build a wall, whatever. Round up all of them that are here and get rid of them. FIX our idiot immigration laws in conjunction with fixing the border, then let in those that need to work after at LEAST running their fingerprints. But granting MILLIONS of them amnesty?  How many are dopers?  A lot. How many of been using fraudulent identification and sponging benefits? Most.  Never seen one yet that stood up and said "buenos tardes senor policeman, I'm here illegally". Everyone had fake ID.

Just my more than two cents from someone who has had to deal with this mess for 20 years. Congress has sold us out.  Unfortunately I think we've had it and all the complaining in the world won't do me or any of you any good.

RR

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2006, 04:36:44 PM »
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2006, 04:39:02 PM »
Deleted double-tap...
They may talk of a "New Order" in the  world, but what they have in mind is only a revival of the oldest and worst tyranny.   No liberty, no religion, no hope.   It is an unholy alliance of power and pelf to dominate and to enslave the human race.

Offline Brett

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« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2006, 04:54:41 PM »
Out of many, one.

That was the national motto proposed by Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in 1776. Both simple and elegant, it embodied the notion that all who had come to America's shores, and all who would come, must be united—must all form one front—in defense of freedom and liberty. For 200 years, we were, largely, one people united behind constitutional republicanism. But soon after the social turbulence of the '60s and the economic woes of the '70s, that unity began to crumble. This was the era in which multiculturalism emerged—the era in which ethnocentricity became chic.

Arthur Schlesinger, a former Harvard professor and senior advisor to JFK, published a retrospective on this era in 1991 called "The Disuniting of America." Schlesinger wrote primarily about the orthodoxy of self-interested hyphenated-American citizen groups—who, rather than unifying to become one, were diversifying to become many. He warned that the cult of ethnicity would result in "the fragmentation and tribalization of America," the natural consequence being that these special-interest groups would be co-opted by the political parties.

"Instead of a transformative nation with an identity all its own," Schlesinger wrote, "America increasingly sees itself in this new light as preservative of diverse alien identities—groups ineradicable in their ethnic character." He asserts, by way of inquiry, "Will the melting pot give way to the Tower of Babel?"

The disuniting of America is a foundational concern underlying much of the debate about immigration.

The disuniting of America is a foundational concern underlying much of the current security, economic and social debate (both rational and irrational) about immigration. This is the concern that a nation, which is already ethnically fragmented internally, risks complete disunity of its national integrity in the absence of borders.

 

 
It is clear that the overwhelming majority of Americans are rightfully adamant about many immigration issues: strict border security and enforcement; automatic detention and deportation of illegals; no extension of amnesty or fast-track citizenship for illegals; preservation of our tax-subsidized medical, educational and social services for American citizens and documented immigrants; strong penalties against employers who hire undocumented migrant workers; and "Americanization" of new legal immigrants—rather than the ill-conceived provisions of bilingual schools and government services which, in effect, dissuade immigrant integration.

We are also resolute in our rejection of birthright citizenship for children of illegal aliens, though this right is assured by our Constitution's 14th Amendment. However, at the time of this Amendment, there was no provision distinguishing legal and illegal immigration. In other words, legislation outlawing this birthright for illegal aliens might well pass the Constitutional test.

On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of Americans don't want to pay $15 for a head of lettuce, wash our own restaurant dishes or launder our own sheets and towels when traveling. In addition, we would much rather somebody else take on laborious low-skilled and low-paying occupations like landscaping and construction.

Currently, there are 10 to 15 million illegal aliens in the United States. Only one president in four decades, George W. Bush, has dared make reconciling this issue a central administration objective. This is because the issue has no clear political consensus.

The only contemporary comparison to the cross-party divisiveness of immigration is the recent debate over Dubai Ports World management of U.S. port terminals. You'll recall that this issue pitted the President and his national-security team against disingenuous Democrats eager to appear tough on national security, weak-kneed Republicans unwilling to stand on principle in an election year and an American public fully caught up in the moment.

However, while the Dubai Ports debacle was clearly manufactured by opportunists in both parties, the immigration debate is all too real—this isn't just another flash in the political pan.

President Bush has charged Congress with taking up this complex issue.

The House plan is unenforceable and unaffordable, and the Senate plan's amnesty provision is unacceptable.

The House has already approved the Sensenbrenner immigration legislation, which essentially proposes to round up all illegals and drop them at the border, and criminalize anyone who had anything to do with them in the interim. This plan leaves one to ponder whether such tough-minded reform was spun out of xenophobic angst, or was merely a byproduct of everyday American nativism. The Sensenbrenner plan does not have a critical provision for guest workers, and is largely unenforceable—or, if enforced, largely unaffordable. But it plays well with the same constituency that believed the Dubai Ports folks were really interested in smuggling nuclear bombs into the U.S.

Worse, the Senate compromise bill would provide illegals amnesty [read: fast-track citizenship] rather than guest-worker status if they have been in the country for five years and do not have a criminal record—other than the misdemeanor crime of crossing the border illegally. This proposal should be a deal-breaker for any legislation. If here for less than five years, they would have to apply at one of 16 designated ports of entry for a new temporary "guest worker" visa for low and unskilled workers.

The House Bill makes no provision for amnesty, which is good, but it also makes no provision for guest-worker permits, which is, well, asinine. Of course, the assumption is that when the House and Senate bills are reconciled in conference, the House wants to start the negotiation on guest workers at zero. Unfortunately, there is some public confusion between "amnesty" and "guest worker" —the latter being both desirable and essential to the U.S. economy.

Of course, every member of the House and Senate is mindful of the fact that there are millions of American voters of Hispanic origin—eight percent of the electorate—which is a significant factor in how this legislation will be framed.

To debate immigration meaningfully, one must have the facts.

To debate this issue meaningfully, however, one must first survey the facts regarding the security, economic and social implications of immigration.

Security Concerns...

In any discussion about immigration, border security must come first. Even if Mr. Sensenbrenner can find a way to round up all undocumented Hispanic immigrants and deport them, they'll all be back in a few days unless we can establish some real border security. Clearly, this would entail both a physical barrier and enough security personnel to enforce both border and internal immigration regulations.

A formidable security wall along our border with Mexico would also provide a measure of safety against terrorist incursions, but there are already serious security problems brewing within our borders.

In our current state of ethnocentric disunity, we tolerate cadres of radical Hispanic identity groups composed of both naturalized immigrants and illegal aliens. These groups provided the ethnic incitement behind last month's half-million-strong protests in Los Angeles and other cities from coast to coast. These were protests not just on behalf of immigrant "rights"; for many, they were a means of promoting the reunification of the southwestern United States with Mexico. This "reconquista" movement is marked by the flying of the Mexican flag over the American flag.

If immigration protests turn violent, all bets are off.

The Hispanic reconquest movement is on the verge of violent nationalism—if it hasn't already become just that—with all its terrorist implications. If they do in fact resort to violence, all bets are off in regards to the status, guest worker or otherwise, of any illegal alien in this country from south of the border.

Economic Concerns...

The essential protectionist argument against the provision of guest-worker permits is that these workers take jobs away from Americans and reduce wages for everyone. There is, however, little factual basis for those arguments. As Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey was fond of noting, "Demagoguery beats data." In other words, an emotional rant tends to be louder than a reasoned analysis.

With U.S. unemployment now at 4.8 percent (with most of these being the chronically unemployable), we need immigrant workers regardless of the ruckus that protectionists might raise. Indeed, most of the jobs performed by immigrant labor are low wage—but few U.S. citizens are lining up for those jobs. Low wages reduce the cost of products and services provided, thus reducing the cost of living for consumers. The alternative is plain to see: a lower stander of living and higher inflation.

The U.S. economy depends on immigrant workers.

David Card, professor of economics at UC Berkeley, compared wages nationally and found that high-school dropouts in cities with an abundance of immigrants performing low-wage jobs are no worse off.

Further, immigrant labor isn't just a policy, as some have suggested, of creating poverty in America while alleviating it in Mexico and elsewhere. Greater prosperity in Mexico means greater security in the United States. NAFTA has helped, but that's just the start. North America's transportation infrastructure must be improved and extended farther south in Mexico, bringing the prosperity enjoyed under NAFTA in the north to more of the country's citizens. Similar principles apply to our CAFTA partners.

The overall economic prosperity resulting from free-trade agreements, including job in-sourcing and outsourcing, creates hardships for some Americans while creating opportunity for others. This provides little solace to those whose financial security is threatened by free trade, but the fact is that most Americans benefit from free trade.

Once again, the economic protectionists are wrong—and European economies are proving it. In a recent speech to the European Parliament, British Prime Minister Tony Blair criticized Western European economies for their unwillingness to compete on a global level: "What type of social model is it that has 20 million unemployed in Europe? Productivity rates falling behind those of the USA? That, on any relative index of a modern economy—skills, R&D, patents, information technology—is going down, not up."

Of course, there are other economic concerns, particularly the cost of social services for illegal aliens—which are enormous. The most costly of these social services are education, healthcare, housing and criminal incarceration. In 1994, California passed Proposition 187 to stop the hemorrhage of tax dollars for services to illegal aliens. Unfortunately, the federal courts struck down the law.

Social Concerns...

How does a nation that has institutionalized ethnic disunity integrate millions of immigrants?

"We have room for but one flag, the American flag." —Theodore Roosevelt

In 1919, Theodore Roosevelt penned these words: "In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Unfortunately, the Left has spent four decades hyphenating and disenfranchising every ethnic group it can in order to create special-interest constituencies. Challenging this disunity exposes one to substantial ridicule—claims of intolerance, bigotry and jingoism. Yet these subcultures, including immigrants, fail to become properly integrated into civil society.

We are now beginning to bear the social consequences of multicultural politicization in both American and immigrant minority populations. "Progressive" policies—bilingual education being the worst offender—have the effect of insulating and ultimately ghettoizing otherwise hardworking and well-intentioned immigrants. For fear of appearing "culturally imperialistic" by forcing newcomers to learn our language, history and laws, we've condemned them to permanent impoverishment. But then, such policies have always bred Democrat votes.

Conclusion...

The Patriot has always endorsed the measures we mentioned earlier: strict border security and enforcement; automatic detention and deportation; no extension of amnesty or fast-track citizenship; preservation of our tax-subsidized medical, educational and social services for American citizens and documented immigrants; strong penalties against employers who hire illegals; and Americanization of new legal immigrants. We are also resolute in our rejection of birthright citizenship for children of undocumented immigrants, and we support legislation to that end.

Additionally, we strongly endorse free enterprise and free trade, including the regulated in-sourcing of low-skill labor through time-limited guest-worker visas.

As a nation, our biggest hurdles will be creating a guest worker program with functional status verification to register between five and ten million guest workers; providing the personnel for document authentication and enforcement for those workers; and establishing a secure border with Mexico.

However, will Congress demand enforcement at the border and in the workplace? The 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli bill specified serious punishment for hiring illegals, but after three arrests, Congress directed the Justice Department not to prosecute infractions of this law.

As always, The Patriot advocates for the restoration of American principles and the adoption of those principles by all who seek to be called "American."

E pluribus unum? Only through God can we all truly become one.

Will we ever again be a nation committed to the principle of E pluribus unum? Perhaps. In 1956, the 84th Congress declared our official national motto to be "In God we trust." This motto is especially instructive amid all the current political pandemonium, for only through God can we all truly become one.
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Offline grousehunter

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« Reply #107 on: April 08, 2006, 06:29:14 PM »
My wife has been here for 35yrs, and is presently trying to get her citizenship,(till now she has been here with a green card) if we let all these mex's in what happens to the exwives of the Gi's from the past mil. guys that think they fall in love and bring they're brides here, only to come here to divorce and marry somebody else! it is not easy at present to become naturalized and I for 1 think it should stay that way!!!!!

Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2006, 03:21:53 PM »
:D -Did I ever open a bucket of worms with that post..........It was great to read the response from all of you.  I think the post indicaters most of us, like the majority of the Americans citizens support legal immigration, but are in favor of dealing with the illegals in a swift manner without due process afforded to most., and of establishing better control; of our borders.

It is unfortunate, but some of us seem to dwell under a rock, or can't see the forest for the trees.  Maybe they just enjoy a good argument, or could they be spies employed by Ted Kenned?

Offline 992

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« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2006, 03:39:47 AM »
I worked in the Virginia coal mines for 28 years and I guess I was doing the work even Mexicans won"t do because I only saw one during  that time and he was an American  as were we all.
I guess I am a racist cause I am a white American male.But in the coal mines we all had black faces so that helped alot by making us all the same color.
I don"t care what color you are you are either an American or you are not!!
If you love the county that you are from,then stay there,an try to change the way things are there,don"t try to change us to suit your way of thinking, if you come here , the leave your past behind you and be an American, not even an hypenated-American ,just a plain old American.

Just my way of seeing things.

992

Offline powderman

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« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2006, 05:11:23 AM »
Quote from: 992
I worked in the Virginia coal mines for 28 years and I guess I was doing the work even Mexicans won"t do because I only saw one during  that time and he was an American  as were we all.
I guess I am a racist cause I am a white American male.But in the coal mines we all had black faces so that helped alot by making us all the same color.
I don"t care what color you are you are either an American or you are not!!
If you love the county that you are from,then stay there,an try to change the way things are there,don"t try to change us to suit your way of thinking, if you come here , the leave your past behind you and be an American, not even an hypenated-American ,just a plain old American.

Just my way of seeing things.

Good post Sir, agreed. POWDERMAN.  :D  :D  :D  :D
992
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Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2006, 06:19:54 AM »
:D A friend who lives near Tombstone, AZ. sent this to me today.  It was taken from the "Tombstone Tumbleweed."  Mr. Bennett telles it like it is........ :roll:

 
 
 
 WARNING! PATRIOTIC OPINION FOLLOWS!
 
by Bill Bennett

Now, before you start screaming “Racism!” or “You’re not Politically Correct!” Let me clarify that I speak from good, old-fashioned patriotism! This opinion is mine, it belongs to me, and the people who know me will also know that patriotism is at its heart.

OK, that said, IÂ’m REALLY ticked that our political machine is giving credence to the protests on the immigration debate. Oh, I have no problem with the protests, thatÂ’s part of our heritage. What I have a problem with is that we have huge crowds of people out waving Mexican flags demanding American rights. Which is it? Do you want to be Mexican or do you want to be American?

I am all for legal, orderly immigration, but these protests are about giving American rights and liberties to people whose first act on American soil is to break the law! Their reasons for breaking the law are as varied as the people who come, and, granted, most of them want a better life. But, if we are going to give amnesty to people who break this federal law, then why not give amnesty to the people who rob banks because they want a better life? That’s a federal law as well and to make them feel better about themselves, we can call their crime “guest withdrawal.” Sure, if we do that, there would be a TREMENDOUS rush on all the banks in this country, but at the same time, it’s a well documented fact that as soon as some kind of amnesty is proposed, illegal border crossings increase dramatically so that people can be in our country to qualify for whatever cutoff date is set. I know—what’s being proposed is “guest worker status” not “amnesty.” A rose by any other name…

The focus in the last weeks has centered more on students than anyone else. I think itÂ’s great that our young people want to voice their opinion. Again, thatÂ’s part of our heritage. I was appalled, however, by some of the responses when one of the Tucson news journalists interviewed some of the students. One of them couldnÂ’t even give a coherent answer about why he was skipping school; I can only assume that for him, it was a way to skip school. Another student said he was out protesting because he loved his country, Mexico; for him I have to assume that he wants his life to be in America but his country will be Mexico. Great for him! But, why are we Americans asked to change our country to allow him this right?

I love my country, too. I canÂ’t imagine living anywhere else. Is America perfect? Not by a long shot; but what we have in the way of civil liberties (which I learned in school as belonging to the citizens of this country, not residents) isnÂ’t matched anywhere else in the world! Because we have those liberties, these protests are allowed to happen.

So, because I happen to be white and born as an American (I don’t even know which of my ancestral roots identifies my hyphenated nationality), I’m expected to lie down and take whatever is handed out because to object means I’m racist (have you noticed that the only people called “racist” are white? We can’t refer to the La Raza or Aztlan members as racist, even though they are promoting their race only) or anti-immigrant. To reiterate—I’m neither.

Everyone deserves their opportunity to be the best human being they can be, but everyone ALSO has rules, social mores, ethics and laws that they must abide by in order to garner the respect that we all desire. To give political weight to a protest about Americans being forced to accept people who entered our country illegally is unconscionable and highly insulting to the immigrants who came to this country legally, who are, and have been, working hard at becoming American citizens.

I have to finish with this quote, which sums things up very well. It is from Tony Blankley, author and editorial page editor for The Washington Times, on the Political Pitfalls Inherent in the Current Immigration Debate:

"The public demand to protect our borders will triumph sooner or later. And, the more brazen the opposing politicians, the sooner will come the triumph. So legislate on, you proud and foolish senators, and hasten your political demise."

Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2006, 06:20:58 AM »
:D A friend who lives near Tombstone, AZ. sent this to me today.  It was taken from the "Tombstone Tumbleweed."  Mr. Bennett telles it like it is........ :roll:

 
 
 
 WARNING! PATRIOTIC OPINION FOLLOWS!
 
by Bill Bennett

Now, before you start screaming “Racism!” or “You’re not Politically Correct!” Let me clarify that I speak from good, old-fashioned patriotism! This opinion is mine, it belongs to me, and the people who know me will also know that patriotism is at its heart.

OK, that said, IÂ’m REALLY ticked that our political machine is giving credence to the protests on the immigration debate. Oh, I have no problem with the protests, thatÂ’s part of our heritage. What I have a problem with is that we have huge crowds of people out waving Mexican flags demanding American rights. Which is it? Do you want to be Mexican or do you want to be American?

I am all for legal, orderly immigration, but these protests are about giving American rights and liberties to people whose first act on American soil is to break the law! Their reasons for breaking the law are as varied as the people who come, and, granted, most of them want a better life. But, if we are going to give amnesty to people who break this federal law, then why not give amnesty to the people who rob banks because they want a better life? That’s a federal law as well and to make them feel better about themselves, we can call their crime “guest withdrawal.” Sure, if we do that, there would be a TREMENDOUS rush on all the banks in this country, but at the same time, it’s a well documented fact that as soon as some kind of amnesty is proposed, illegal border crossings increase dramatically so that people can be in our country to qualify for whatever cutoff date is set. I know—what’s being proposed is “guest worker status” not “amnesty.” A rose by any other name…

The focus in the last weeks has centered more on students than anyone else. I think itÂ’s great that our young people want to voice their opinion. Again, thatÂ’s part of our heritage. I was appalled, however, by some of the responses when one of the Tucson news journalists interviewed some of the students. One of them couldnÂ’t even give a coherent answer about why he was skipping school; I can only assume that for him, it was a way to skip school. Another student said he was out protesting because he loved his country, Mexico; for him I have to assume that he wants his life to be in America but his country will be Mexico. Great for him! But, why are we Americans asked to change our country to allow him this right?

I love my country, too. I canÂ’t imagine living anywhere else. Is America perfect? Not by a long shot; but what we have in the way of civil liberties (which I learned in school as belonging to the citizens of this country, not residents) isnÂ’t matched anywhere else in the world! Because we have those liberties, these protests are allowed to happen.

So, because I happen to be white and born as an American (I don’t even know which of my ancestral roots identifies my hyphenated nationality), I’m expected to lie down and take whatever is handed out because to object means I’m racist (have you noticed that the only people called “racist” are white? We can’t refer to the La Raza or Aztlan members as racist, even though they are promoting their race only) or anti-immigrant. To reiterate—I’m neither.

Everyone deserves their opportunity to be the best human being they can be, but everyone ALSO has rules, social mores, ethics and laws that they must abide by in order to garner the respect that we all desire. To give political weight to a protest about Americans being forced to accept people who entered our country illegally is unconscionable and highly insulting to the immigrants who came to this country legally, who are, and have been, working hard at becoming American citizens.

I have to finish with this quote, which sums things up very well. It is from Tony Blankley, author and editorial page editor for The Washington Times, on the Political Pitfalls Inherent in the Current Immigration Debate:

"The public demand to protect our borders will triumph sooner or later. And, the more brazen the opposing politicians, the sooner will come the triumph. So legislate on, you proud and foolish senators, and hasten your political demise."

Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2006, 09:54:02 AM »
Yea, I do wonder about that last paragraph.
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Offline Brett

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« Reply #114 on: April 10, 2006, 09:56:09 AM »
I believe Mr Bennet has hit a home run.   :D
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Offline nomosendero

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« Reply #115 on: April 10, 2006, 10:27:39 AM »
Brett, I would like to think so.
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Offline Savage .250

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« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2006, 02:53:25 AM »
TM7:
    You are correct when you used the word........pandering.
      Seems like our elected officials, both parties, have once again
      deserted  the electorate for reasons of greed.  I guess that`s to be
      expected as this is politics were talking about here.
     Instead of doing the "right thing" which would be to close the border,
     we have the same problem we had in the 80`s, run away illegals.
     It was so rampant that our elected officials rather than address the
     real issue head on (close the border) chose amnesty. Well that took
      care of that problem didn`t it ?  
     Here we are some years later, same situation only now the future
     citizens are demanding to be let off the hook because they have the
    POWER!
     Votes my friends drives the ship and the USS Mexico is under a full
     head of steam.
     The original problem.....the border.  Well, a few new Border agents
     should take care of that .............................till next time.
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Offline magooch

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« Reply #117 on: April 11, 2006, 04:34:17 AM »
Maybe we should consider invading Mixico.  They have pretty decent weather down there and lots of oil.  I'm serious.
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Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #118 on: April 11, 2006, 05:39:22 AM »
Quote from: magooch
Maybe we should consider invading Mixico.  They have pretty decent weather down there and lots of oil.  I'm serious.


Another one in the X ring Magooch.......

That makes a lot of sense.  Or, at least work at getting a Mexican government in place that would be interested in fixing the conditions that make the Mexican people want to leave.

The only real way to solve the problem is to fix Mexico.
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Offline magooch

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« Reply #119 on: April 12, 2006, 04:38:30 AM »
Fix Mexico?  Hell, we ought to have an immigration system like theirs.  And our health care and social systems might be in better shape if they were as restrictive as Mexico's.  I don't have any knowledge of how things are in Mexico, but I doubt that you can jump the border and expect to receive any benefits at all over there.
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