Author Topic: Fur Damage! (Read 3327 times)

7x57 · « **on:** March 30, 2006, 07:31:32 PM »

I went and caught the coyote calling bug this winter. The problem is I have been using my deer rifles (6.5x55 + 7x57) on yodel-dogs and the exit holes are huge if you hit bone, and they run a bit before they die if you don't !!!

My wife has already approved the purchase of a new rifle as a "grad present" for surviving university, so I'm good there.

Now I need help with the caliber of my dedicated coyote, cat gun.

I'm just wondering of 22-250, 223, 204, which will cause the least fur damage while still putting them down hard out to about 300 yards?

statelinerut · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2006, 01:53:47 AM »

7X75,

From a pure cost point of view the 223 is going to be the cheapest way to go. You can also get .223 ammo at just any mom and pop sporting goods store just about anywhere. Now the 204 is very popular on some of the coyote hunting websites. I use a .243 for my coyotes and the fur damage is very minimal. www.varmintal.com is a good resource for varmint and predator basics form everything to calling to caliber choice. Thats just my two cents

onecoyote · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2006, 01:41:54 PM »

7x57, at 300 yards the 223 and the smaller caliber 204 are not as good a choice on coyote sized animals as the longer range killing power of the 22-250, 220 swift or the 243.
Anyone who shoots predators and want's to save fur has to learn how to sew. :wink:

oso45-70 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2006, 02:26:40 PM »

7X57

The 222 223 222mag would be at the bottom of list of the most efficent coyoye getters, Like Onecoyote said the 22-250 or swift would be the most desireable or even one of the 6mms 243win. If you are going to call them in the lighter caliber center fires will work ok. In close cover i use my little 22 Hornet and have great luck. There is no reason not use the 6.5X57 or the 7X57 but you are going to mess up the hides, Thats a little more than they can absorb with out a blow out. Like my friend Onecoyote said you gonna be sewin. Good luck to ya

........Joe.......

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:24:42 PM »

7X57
Looks like you got some good advice from Coyote1 & OSO45-70
The only thing I can think to add is that even the .22-250 isnt much better than a .22 WMR at 400yds.

You have a good thing going for you though. Having been bitten by the calling bug will allow you to refine your skills and get them yotes inside of 200yds where a .223 would be very effective.

kyote · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2006, 04:50:27 PM »

why don't you try some barnes bullets and slow em down a little.even some nosler solid base bullets if you reload just slow em down a little and you won't have an exit hole that will need a lot of needle and thread work.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2006, 05:21:31 PM »

Quote from: glanceblamm

7X57
Looks like you got some good advice from Coyote1 & OSO45-70
The only thing I can think to add is that even the .22-250 isnt much better than a .22 WMR at 400yds.

You have a good thing going for you though. Having been bitten by the calling bug will allow you to refine your skills and get them yotes inside of 200yds where a .223 would be very effective.

My thought's exactly, except I'd say within 100 yards...

7x57 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2006, 08:12:07 AM »

Thanks for the advice, you guys rock!

I just have one problem, Oso-45-70 why did you even suggest that I could use my old rifles? I NEED a NEW gun for coyotes :wink: :wink:

The best way to convince the wife of that need is for her to read the posts by the "experts" on this page :grin:

That said, I gotta admit I was leaning more towards 22-250 and even looking at 243's but I wondered about those cratering coyotes that come in close.

Where I live is mostly timber with a few big open slides, cuts, burns, fields. Truth be told I usually go out with the kids for coyotes, they love it! The longest shot I've ever had to take on one was 147 yards. I guess I'd better figure out how to use a needle! Oh oh, busted by wife now she's correcting my grammar!!!!!!!

trotterlg · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:49:18 AM »

If you want to have the best thing for Coyotes and fir then get a rifle in 17 Remington, nothing comes close to it's "fir firendliness" every thing else is a compromise. Larry

onecoyote · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2006, 08:21:53 AM »

7x57, I've been a predator caller for 42 years and oso45-70 has been doing it longer then me.
I'm sure oso well agree that there is no such a thing as an expert in the sport of predator hunting. If anybody tells you they are they are full of s--t, and you can Tell em I said so too lol.
Always something new to learn in the sport of predator hunting. Hell, coyotes teach predator callers new tricks all the time :wink:

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2006, 03:39:01 PM »

Kyote Wrote:

Quote

why don't you try some barnes bullets and slow em down a little.even some nosler solid base bullets if you reload just slow em down a little and you won't have an exit hole that will need a lot of needle and thread work.

I like dem tough bullets.

kyote · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:33:16 AM »

well if ya are really lookin to get a new rifle.bamm...bump it up..look in to the .223 ackley improved.get ya a nice varminter in .223 and send her off to have the chamber reamed to the .223 ackley imp.that little case when blown out is a 22-250 with less powder.and just a wonderfull little case to load.mine is awesome.

trotterlg · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:58:01 PM »

Kyote: You've been reading too many magazines, a .223AI isn't even in the same universe as a 22-250. Larry

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #13 on:** April 03, 2006, 04:50:30 PM »

Hi Kyote

I am shooting a .22-250
What I was saying was that in the intrest of long range shooting, the velocity at 400yds wasnt much better than the .22 WMR at the muzzle.
I do like the tough bullets. Am using the Hornady #2267 which is a
fmj-bt and it does great with small in's & out's.

kyote · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2006, 04:59:14 AM »

Kyote: You've been reading too many magazines, a .223AI isn't even in the same universe as a 22-250. Larry...

Hmmm.Interesting..not in the same universe..I will have to stop reading.and my chrony will have to go in for recalibration..thank you for your insight..

Again focusing on Golembieski's zealous demand for performance, the caliber choice of .223 Ackley Improved made a lot of sense. Like all of Ackley's "improved" wildcats, the .223 Ackley can safely fire standard .223 Rem. ammunition as well as handloaded wildcat rounds.

In essence, the Ackley gives you .22-250 ballistics out of a .223 case. The .223 Ackley Improved differs from a standard .223 Rem. with a sharper neck angle, 40 degrees versus 21 degrees, and less body taper. This results in greater case volume, allowing more powder. In real terms, the Ackley yields 150 fps more than a standard .223, around 3,700 fps with a 40 gr. Nosier Ballistic Tip.

There are two reasons why the Ackley Improved is better than a standard .223. First, the basic rule of ballistics: mo' fasta, mo' betta.

Second, reloading is easier thanks to the Ackley's 40 degree shoulder, which decreases brass flow into the neck, thus minimizing the need to trim cases. Case trimming is a royal pain in the neck, so this improvement is worth the ticket price alone.
HAA HA....

kyote · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2006, 08:09:15 AM »

Yea Glanceblamm..the FMJBTs work great also in fur saving.but shot placement again is a big factor and some times the filthy coyotes won't stand still for a shot and ya gotta find fur and pull the trigger.he he he.and if I remember correctly..we can not hunt here with the FMJs but we can plink.

trotterlg · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2006, 03:46:56 PM »

kyote: A 22-250 is about 500 to 600 fps faster than a .223AI with a 40gr bullet. My standard 22-250 with a 26 inch barrel would make 4270 with 40gr Barnes VLC's and near 4,500 with 30gr bergers. That is not in the same universe as 3,700. Guess if you need a slow bullet to save the fir then the .223AI would be just the ticket. Larry

onecoyote · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2006, 07:57:04 AM »

Does speed kill? Or would it be where you put the bullet? At 400 yards the average guy ain't gonna put the bullet in the right place vary many times on a coyote and the speed sure in the hell ain't gonna kill it.
I've hit coyotes at that range with a 22-250 just to see the coyote get up and run. In the field it's to damn hard to make shots at that range most times so I don't bother.

trotterlg · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2006, 01:53:19 PM »

I've said it before, but is worth saying, most 400 yard Coyote shots are made in a Bar late at night, not saying it isn't done, but I think most of the 400 yard shots turn out to be closer to 200 yards in the day time. Anyone who has had both a 22-250 and a .223 or the AI version will tell you that there is a world of difference between any of the .223 or .222 or their derivitives and a 22.250 or a Swift. Larry

oso45-70 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2006, 03:04:17 PM »

Larry

I'am agast at the thought of embibbing alcohol late at night in a dingy bar room discussing long range marksmanship at distances in excess of a quarter of a mile. Surly you jest for i know none of my shooting buddys would stoop so low as to partake in such foolisness. especially while tipping the bottle, I say old man surely you have been mislead.

Now for the facts Mam, Just the facts. Larry i think there is more truth than fiction in what you are saying, I have seen lots of shots made at long range, some luck and some marksmanship, But i have seen some that were called 500yds and were like 250yds. This is a never ending tale of long range shooting

.............Joe............

trotterlg · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2006, 07:16:09 PM »

oso45-70: Hope I can buy you a drink some time...........................................................A coke natureally. Larry

kyote · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2006, 05:19:33 AM »

That is not in the same universe as 3,700.

well, that is what the .223 does.Not the .223AI..and the .223AI with less powder then the 22-250 is right on the heels of the 22-250.and in the same velocity range.But not the top end of the 22-250..and the reloading manuals shows the 22-250 using less powder then the .220sw and doing them velocitys.go figure.
now my .220swift AI and my .243AI will shoot fast..and the .243 with 55gr bullets is a speed demon.Now...my .223AI is said to be the most efficent AI improvement of all the cartriges done with the Ackley improvements.yes your 26 inch barrel in 22-250 is faster then my little .223AI.but its on your heels.and with less powder..I rest my case.
hey...what up with this short range shootin of coyotes..400 yards.after a couple root beers mine are at least 1500 yards..he he he... :lol:

onecoyote · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2006, 12:20:49 PM »

Hummm, I wonder how fast my 223 WSSM well go if I use 40 gr bullets? Lets all go to the range and have a bullet race :lol:

beemanbeme · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2006, 01:20:04 PM »

Looks like this thread has been jacked by someone that thinks tacking AI onto a cartridge gives it some sort of supernatural properties. :grin: The ratio I've been quoted is 4 to 1. If you add 4% powder, you gain 1% velocity increase. :grin:

I don't think more speed is what is needed if you're looking for a fur friendly cartridge. In Oklahoma, I shot quite a few yotes with a 22-250 and if you hit a bone or the angle wasn't right, the results could be pretty gruesome. Try sewing up a going away coyote where the bullet went in the short ribs and came out thru the off shoulder. When I switched to a .223 and a sx bullet, things got better. Needless to say, I had to respect the lesser reach of the .223.

To the newbie, if you call a coyote in and snipe at it at distance and miss, you've got a call smart coyote. And I think they tell all their friends. If you have one hang up that isn't within dead certain distance, you're better off letting him go without a shot. Use it as a growth experience while you try to figure out what was wrong with your set-up that he didn't come on in. (sometimes there is no reason)

kyote · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2006, 02:11:55 PM »

To the newbie, if you call a coyote in and snipe at it at distance and miss, you've got a call smart coyote. And I think they tell all their friends.

if you used one of the supernatural AIs you probably would not miss..he hehe :grin: coyotes don't seem to care about gunshots.if ya miss one and he does not see you,he might come back another day :lol: .if he sees you that is another story.But thats just my observations. :lol:

oso45-70 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:07:06 PM »

Quote from: onecoyote

Hummm, I wonder how fast my 223 WSSM well go if I use 40 gr bullets? Lets all go to the range and have a bullet race :lol:

I was wondering when some one would come up with the 223WSSM round, Seems to me we are leaving out one of the fastest 22 center fire rounds of today. I don't have a chrony so can't argue Ballistics with any one but would almost bet the WSSM would be close to the 22-250 & 220 Swift ...........Joe.............

kyote · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2006, 03:56:44 PM »

Super sizzlers (left to right): .223 Winchester Super Short Magnum, .22-250 Remington, .220 Swift. Of these three, the .223 WSSM is the performance king.Boy is that guy with the 22-250 gonna be cryin now..he may have to AI to get back on top he he he :lol:

oso45-70 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 06, 2006, 04:38:44 PM »

Kyote

The starting load with BLC2 is 45.0 grs. and is listed at 4,301 FPS I ain't gonna say how fast a full blown load would be but, you know its going to be hauling hinney with 52 grs of BLC2. Looks like the WSSM is going to be the speed King for a while AIeeee Noooo Moooo...........Joe...........

trotterlg · « **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2006, 07:04:41 PM »

And the .223AI is a distant 4th, 5th, out of the running? The AI improvements gain a lot of their speed by loading to higher pressures because there is no SAAMI standard for them. If you load a standard .223 to the same pressures the hot AI's are loaded to you will gain nearly what the AI's get. The AI's will gain some, but not nearly what all the hype says if you stay within the pressure standards of the parent cartridge. Larry

7x57 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 07, 2006, 05:16:11 PM »

So just for clarification, if I drill a coyote with a 45 grain, 223 WSSM AI improved at 4700 fps in the shoulder blade, at say 60 yards :eek: .......

How many hours of sewing will it take to make the few scraps of fur I can find look like a marketable hide?

?

As I mentioned before all my dogs have been hit within 150 yards, but I do like the idea of trading sniper stories in dank smokey places, after a long day in the fields! As long as it can be that good Canadian beer and not that cover scent in a can you guys have to drink :twisted: