UPDATE: The dealers aren't wanting to deal??

[Rogue Ram]

After doing my research, I played the "game" with Ford and Chevy the last few days, looking for a new or used half ton.  Apparently the truck business must be great, because on any used rig none of them will budge from blue book retail! Virtually every dealership had trucks priced at 3k over blue book retail, then won't come down from the retail figure.

As far as new ones go, the guys I'm dealing with are all coming within 200 bucks of each other on the same rig, then won't budge. I know for a fact the trucks can be had for thousands less, but they won't move. The prices are out of line compared even to what the various net sites claim MSRP vs. cost are.

So what am I missing here? I don't get it.

RR[/b]

[ShadowMover]

I had the same problem a few years ago. Try calling out of state.  There are places where the economy isn't so hyper.

[Graybeard]

Contact a GBO member by the user name of Heather. She is the internet sales rep for one of the largest auto dealers around and they deliver the vehicle to you after you buy. See what kinda price she can get you.

She works for the Sunny King Dealership in Anniston, AL but they have dealerships in other cities and other states as well. I know he has Ford, Toyota, Honda and Mitsubishi and I think some others. That's where  my Toy came from.

[fe352v8]

I do consulting work for auto dealers, what ,make and model do you want?

No I receive no money for referals, my practice is limited to risk management and human resources.

jon

[Rogue Ram]

Thanks for the replies!  GB, I'll find her and PM her.

Jon, I'll PM you this evening!

Take care, let you know what happens.

RR

[Heather]

Thank you GB!

I am affiliated with the Sunny King Organization.  It is one of the South's biggest car dealerships.  We sell Honda, Toyota, Ford, and Mitsubishi.  We buy in volume, so we have the ability to share discounted prices with our customers.  We often stumble upon people in other states who can buy, and have delivered, a vehicle from us cheaper than they can buy it from their local dealership.  Anyone interested in purchasing a new or used vehicle should contact me to see what kind of price I can get.  

Heather

[Rogue Ram]

Turns out I now know within a few bucks of what these dealers are paying for the 150 Supercrew I want. Its amazing that with Fords sales plunging they won't budge below a certain threshhold in these parts.  A member here located dealers elsewhere that beat the crap out of these guys locally but still not low enough.

I also weaseled my way into finding info about what rigs sell for at the local auto auctions all the dealers attend. Again, they jack the price way up and just sit on them, not content to make even a grand on the rig.

I have time.  :-)

RR

[rockbilly]

Having spent a few days in the car business I have a fairly good idea how they work.  First, dealing on a used truck may be hard at this time, all of the new car dealers are doing everything possible to move the new iron for the big three.  Often, more money is being put into a trade in than it is worth.  I have watched the truck market in my area, new and used, and see the used trucks going just a few dollars less than they sold for new.  The superduty trucks are holding their value very well in my area.

Second, if you are in a position to pay cash for a vehicle you can normally make a better deal.  On a new vehicle, I can figure fairly close and come up with-in a few dollars of what the dealer has in it.  THe basic cost is not hard to get, add in transportation, and a couple of hundred for the dealer prep or PDI (Pre-delivery Inspection), I take that figure, add a couple of hundred and make a cash offer.  Ninty-nine percent of the time I drive off in the vehicle.  Normally the best time to buy is toward the end of the month, most dealerships work on a quota, and the salesmen work on commission.  Near the end of the month they are working on achieving theit quota, and looking to give themselves a raise by selling another vehicle.

I never trade a vehicle in.  there are two point here.  In most states you are taxed on the trade difference, the trade in will reduce the amount of tax you pay, but if you know the value of your vehicle, have it detailed and sell it your self, you can usually off set the higher tax buy getting more cash for the vehicle than the deaale would have give on trade.  These bucks plus a few in your pocket and you are ready to deal.

Hint, never, I mean never show a salesman that you REALLY like the vehicle. Ask direct questions, do not discuss your likes/dislikes with your wife or other advisor that may be with you in the presence of the sales staff.  I don't smoke, but I like to buy a cigar, stick it in my mouth, and when the salesman says something, just gurnt.  Ask what you need/want to know and then grunt.  It drives a salesman mad, makes them wonder what you are thinking :wink:  :-D  

[Rogue Ram]

Local Chevy dealer had a couple loss leaders out there:

Brand new 2006 Silverado 1500 halfton, ext cab, 6'6" bed, 4x4, Z71 package, LT1 trim (power everything except psgr seat, etc but no leather), high output 5.3 engine, tow package,  appx $23,700 out the door.........that includes title, registration, and about $500 worth of gasoline as a rebate.  Some pressure for the extra BS (scotchguard, paint sealant), but not much (they had to try).

That is $2k better than any dealer would go out here, and according to Kelly Blue Book $11k under MSRP. Blue book shows the trade in value to the dealer would be what I paid for it!

Fought with another dealer the previous day over EXACT same truck only an 05 with 22k miles on it.......finally got so PO'd at me and a friend (good cop bad cop) they pulled something out that claimed they owned the 05 for $23,300. Told them we were off to buy a loss leader "yea sure you are".  Drove up the next day in the new ride, pulled out the bill of sale "hey sport, can you read this dollar figure back to me please?   :shock:   I think you paid too much for your used truck"  The look on their faces was one of astonishment.

Anyone wants one, OR wants me to keep an eye out, shoot me a PM.  I guarantee they'll do the same thing right now they had like 2 left.

 

RR

[Niner]

I've been selling Fords for over a dozen years in a large dealership owned by Autonation, which is the largest chain in the US by far.  It always amazes me how "expert" people are about the vehicle buying experience when it's only something they do infrequently.  Nobody would think of going into the Supermarket and telling the grocer how much he should charge  for a can of beans or walk into a shoe store and tell the clerk that they wanted to see the invoice,  and after seeing  it, tell them they are trying to pull a fast one because they looked it up on the internet and it looks like the store is trying to make a profit.  Of course it doesn't phase me anymore, but thought I'd give you the other side.

Here are a few observations. 

1.  Paying cash dosen't make any difference to a dealer in the price he can and will sell for.  In fact they want you to finance so the finance company kicks them back points for doing so.

2. All companies, within the Ford brand at least, pay the same price for new vehicles.  Those that can pay for their inventory outright, without floor plan, or can move something fast enough, can realize profit on the about 3 percent holdback under the invoice price.

3.  The dealer where you are is not likely to miss you by any significant amount on price relative to the guy in the next town, IF THE FEATURES ARE AN IDENTICAL MATCH.  That's a myth.  See obeservation 2.

4.  Most deals go south, not because of the price of the new vehicle but because of the upside down market value to amount owed on the trade vehicle. 

5.  If you walked into any dealership and offered to pay $300 over middle invoice, the price the dealer paid before holdback, plus get all rebates and other incentives that are due,  the chances are very good you would have a deal on the vehicle.  Some exceptions.... Shelby Cobra's, for instance,   being an example.

6. The largest variation on the price of new vehicles are the rebates and incentives that change from one month to the next.  The difference between one day and the next, by expiration date of incentives, can cost you over a grand on even a compact car. 

[Keith L]

In my part of the country the price on identical cars varies widely between dealers.  There are dealers that I won't even shop at any more because they are always higher, sometimes by several thousand dollars.  One tried to tell me I was being offered a good deal on a used car with 35,000 miles on it and two years old for more than the sticker price on a new identical model on their own lot.  That looks like an intellegence test to me.  Now they are on the list. I asked another dealer for a price quote on a car, and he refused.  He said if I didn't want to pay the sticker price he didn't think he wanted me as a customer.  Used cars are wild in their variation, and that is to be expected.  But some dealers act insulted when I don't want to pay list price, while others start signifigantly lower.

Remember the negotiation over price has been going on a long time.  One dealer in my area advertises no haggle pricing, and they don't.  But they price at the high end of the market, and don't sell many vehicles.  I buy several cars per yea for myself, business, and family members. I always get the deal I want.  Most of the time I have to visit several dealers, and I will buy from the ones that want to sell.

[Niner]

Used vehicles are a different thing from new.   Before you buy one go to KBB.com and check out going prices for miles and equipment in your zip code and ask for a carfax from the dealer before you buy to be sure the vehicle is not some wreck that has been repaired.  And now days, with significant rebates and 0 interest in a lot of cases, you should look at new before singing up for a used 2005 or 2006 vehicle with low miles but at 9%  or more interest. 

Salesmen expect customers to try to work their best deal.  No problem there.  Just, remember, most salesmen are honest people trying to make a living. And all franchise lots of the main manufacturers have to answer to customer surveys that make a big difference in potential dealer bonus money at year end.  Salesmen have to answer too..... and any response less than complete satisfaction has an affect on salesmen's bonus plans.  The affect could be several hundred dollars on any given month. 

[Rogue Ram]

Niner,

Just FYI, if you search this topic you'll find some threads relating to my search. Many people out there in other areas were getting deals on the truck I wanted, but not in this area. GBO member Jon hooked me up with some dealers out of my area that absolutely cut the throats of the Ford dealers around these parts. The cost of me flying out to get the rig or having it delivered kept me looking for a bit longer.  That is when I finally went to a Chev dealer who puts about 6 loss leaders out every weekend. I went to 3 other Chev dealers and asked them to match or beat it. None would. I walked in and walked out with the truck as advertised.

I agree dealers have a point of view and salesmen need to make money. However, its my money being spent, and I'll give it to whoever gives me the best overall deal.  Even with calling my truck a loss leader, they are still making money and we all know it.

RR

[lewdogg21]

Brand new 2006 Silverado 1500 halfton, ext cab, 6'6" bed, 4x4, Z71 package, LT1 trim (power everything except psgr seat, etc but no leather), high output 5.3 engine, tow package,  appx $23,700 out the door.........that includes title, registration, and about $500 worth of gasoline as a rebate.  Some pressure for the extra BS (scotchguard, paint sealant), but not much (they had to try).

Cries.... The new wife (well in 3 weeks) needs a new vehicle and so I'm stuck with my 93 Explorer. When I saw that price I almost cried.  I joke with her I'll die driving that same truck.

Ok my question for guys like Niner (who work in the industry) is:
It's been recommended to me that once I decide on the vehicle and model I want to contact all the area fleet managers and take their offers and attempt to play them against each other to get the best deal rather than deal with the salesmen.  Is this a realistic way to get the best deal over all and can I get a better deal then going through a salesperson or would this match the best deal  a salesman could give me?  I understand that salespeople have families and mortgages too.  However I'll be honest the ones I've encountered all have that slimey feel and that approach puts them in a classification with Developers, lawyers, and politicians.  I just assume not do the dog and pony offer show with them.  At the very least I will save hours upon hours sitting in the dealership offering and counteroffering.

P.S. I live in Sacramento so a shortage of dealers will not be a problem.

[INresponse]

  I just assume not do the dog and pony offer show with them.  At the very least I will save hours upon hours sitting in the dealership offering and counteroffering.

I have only bought 2 new vehicles in my life, which happen to be the only 2 purchased from a dealer.  What I found was unless you personally knew the manager he was hiding in his office and you are stuck with a salesperson.  The first thing they ask is what kind of car/truck, and the second thing they ask is what you want your payments to be.  They do not want to talk price, they want to talk payment, which is a lot smaller number than the one on the window sticker.  When they ask the question about payments tell them you are paying cash, this will avoid the long wait at an empty desk while they run your credit record and forget to hand you your ID back, holding it hostage until you give in.  Oh, and never let them take your car to check it out for trade in value because they will hide that too in an effort to pressure you in to a sale. 

You want to pay cash and you are not planning to trade in your car.  Look around, find what you want, haggle on the price, slowly walk towards your car, tell them it is more than you expected a new car to cost, and haggle some more and if they come up with a reasonable price slow down and make small talk but keep coming back to the 'more than you expected' and ask them why it costs more....make them try to sell the car to you.  The more they talk the better your chances.  If you get a solid offer, preferably in writing, then start asking if they have any 0% or 1% financing....which might make it worth your while to finance and hold on to your money (which you probably don't have).  Or if possible get a finance estimate from your bank or credit union, it may or may not be better but it is added info on your side.  Then if you were planning to trade in old faithful you can ask, just out of curiosity what they would give you on trade.

With this method you will have to be patient and not need the new vehicle yesterday.  If your plan is to drive home the new car now you may not be able to work this to success.  My nephew stopped at the same 2 dealerships every day after work for 2 months.  Talked to the sales people each day about the price, alternated which dealer he went to first, using their prices against each other.  Finally one day the big boss came out as he was starting his truck to go home and said name your price.  He got top dollar for his trade in (which was paid off) and bought the Dodge Cummons Turbo pick-up for less than invoice.  The dealer made their money from the factory kickback.

Also, find an option they have on all the vehicles and ask if they have one without it, such as leather seats.  When I bought my Avalanche in September, 2001 all of them on the lot had leather interior, luggage racks and running boards.  I didn't want any of them so I decided to order one the way I wanted it, but they wanted to knock off the upgrade price (for what was not part of an upgrade package).  This could be another way to knock off another couple hundred bucks.  After getting nowhere (or actually no selection on options I wanted) with the dealerships in Southern Nevada I ended up calling a distant relative (an in-law of an in-law) who managed a dealership in Utah.  I had him order the truck for me (after I learned I had a family member who could get me employee pricing and haggling was no longer an issue) because the sales people here wanted to sell off the lot, not help me order what I wanted, even though I was actually paying cash, checkbook in hand. 

The next new car I bought 3 months later was a 2002 Dale Earnhardt Monte Carlo.  The salespeople in Vegas had a couple to sell but I bought it in Utah.  Being it was a limited edition vehicle I could not get employee pricing, but I got a good price because I was a repeat customer and they got a sale because they helped me the first time.

When I brought both vehicles in to the local dealership to show a friend in the parts department the salesperson was pissed at themselves for not working with me on ordering the Avalanche.  They missed out on two sales.

Moral of the story:  be very patient and make them "sell" the car to you, don't beg them for a better price.

[Keith L]

I found that more dealers are getting quite rude when you try to deal with them.  I eliminate them right away from further consideration.  I had a used car dealer tell me that I was nuts when I told him what I wanted to pay, and he stormed off telling me not to waste his time.  He doesn't have to worry.  I won't go to his lot ever again.  I got the deal I wanted on a car worth even more at a dealership down the street, and I didn't have to beg for a deal.  Next year I will be looking to get a new car for my wife, and it will be brand new.  I will start with a dealer I am familiar with and one who really deals.  This junk about a no dicker price just means they want to save themselves some time and take some more of my money.

[Niner]

Ok my question for guys like Niner (who work in the industry) is:
It's been recommended to me that once I decide on the vehicle and model I want to contact all the area fleet managers and take their offers and attempt to play them against each other to get the best deal rather than deal with the salesmen.

I guess you mean sales managers, not fleet managers......unless you are a commecial account and want to buy an actual "fleet".  However, it makes no real difference to cut the salesman out.  The sales manager pencils the deal anyway.  But masterminding the car transaction isn't all that hard.  You can  lookup invoice prices online.  You can ask to see the invoice before making an offer.  It's not rocket science. But.... the biggest problem isn't the "deal" on the new one but the trade value of the one you are riding in...or the credit score. It's not all about the price. And... the manufacturers offer really good incentives that go and  come. You have to hit that lucky sometimes too.