Author Topic: Beginner Muzzleloader  (Read 1744 times)

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Offline alien319

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Beginner Muzzleloader
« on: April 01, 2006, 09:33:17 PM »
What is the best muzzleloader for a beginner.  I have never used a muzzleloader but would like to get into this.  Any help is greatly appreciated.
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Offline str8shooter48

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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2006, 03:33:25 AM »
How much do you want to spend? If your willing to spring for an Omega that would be my choice. If you'll spend more go Encore. I really like my Encore.If I didn't care about the interchangeable barrels of the Encore and the Omega was out at the time it would have been the Omega. I know a lot of people with Omegas and they are real happy with them

Offline Keith Lewis

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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2006, 05:59:10 PM »
I have an Omega and it is a great muzzleloader although it takes some time to find the correct bullet and sabot that will load easy enough to be comfortable. I would also suggest an NEF Huntsman if you don't want to spend the money for the Omega. I would stay with the american made rifles at least until you have some experience as they are a little more likely to handle a maximum load which I personally do not recommend anyway but in case of a mistake you might be a little more safe. The falling block and break action rifles are a little easier to operate and somewhat easier to clean than any of the bolt type. A standard sidelock made by Thompson Center would be another good choice and not difficult to learn the correct operation. A lot depends on what you intend to do with the rifle and what you want to shoot. Different twist rates are available for sabot bullets and other for patched round ball loads. If hunting is the intent stick with the faster twist sabot/bullet barrels. Patched round ball use slower twist. A good comprimise is one twist in 48 inches as it will shoot both reasonably well. One in 28 is mostly for bullet/sabot projectiles. PA by the way has some rather specific requirements for hunting which you should check before buying anything to make sure the rifle will be legal to use. One is for flintlock only which is not a rifle I would recommend for a beginner as the flintlocks are more difficult to make reliable when hunting.

Offline A.J.

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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2006, 05:23:49 AM »
If you want to wade into muzzleloading without dropping a lot of cash, Cabela's may still have their Winchester Apex's on sale. They're marked WAY down. I ordered one, and it's a fine looking and handling gun. It's an in-line built like an Omega with 209 ignition. It DOES have a Spanish barrel on it, so you can't stuff the barrel full of loose powder, but it will safely handle loads 99% of the loads black powder shooter's use anyway. I paid $253 for my Apex with blue barrel, and black stock, and rings, bases and variable scope...shipping and all...It also came with a high quality sling..just my 2 cents...but if you're interested, you'd better hurry. They may already be off sale.

www.cabelas.com
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Offline skamaniac

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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2006, 05:55:40 AM »
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that winchester built in Turkey?  Same company that builds the CVA Optima, like i said i could be wrong.

Offline skamaniac

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Spanish
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2006, 06:40:33 AM »
OK, they ARE Spanish barrels and are owned by BPI (Winchester muzzleloaders, CVA/Traditions).  But why buy a dangerous spanish barrel that are risky to shoot and are only rated at under 10,000 psi when you can get a NEF (new england firearms) owned by Marlin and built in the USA to break into the sport.  The Huntsman requires paperwork because the receiver is built to withstand pressures of smokeless powder, but the new Sidekick can be had from Cablelas for about $170.00.  Just my $.02 worth.  Check out Randy Wakeman's review of the Sidekick here http://www.chuckhawks.com/nef_sidekick.htm

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2006, 06:44:20 AM »
I don't think there is a better muzzleloader than the Encore. I have 3 of them all on there own frames. JMHO.  :D
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Offline skamaniac

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Encore
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2006, 06:54:27 AM »
I absoulutely agree Redhawk.  I shoot an Encore exclusively.  But if someone was just getting started and wasn't sure if they would like the sport, i would stay away from the BPI sub standard products that you're not sure are going blow up in your face or not when you can buy a weapon that has been rated and built in the USA without spending a lot of cash right off the get go, the NEF Sidekick is a great entry level rifle.

Offline gufote

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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2006, 07:04:04 AM »
Skamaniac, in what do you base your opinion about the spanish barrels?
Perhaps did you witness any explosion?, or did you do any investigation on the kind of steel, thickness, charges etc.
I think that is enoguht of these calumnies about the spanih barrels.
I own an inliner made by ardesa with thousands of rounds a no problems, obviously alwys taken care of the safety rules and maximun charges and also comon sense.
I also own a revolver made in spain, (remington 1858) the same, thousands of rounds some times with hot loads (35 graings of black powders and .457 ball) and the same no problems.
I know a lot of shooters with spanish made guns a no problems.
So I think that if you are suporter of made USA products is right and fine, but don´t do it espreading calumnies about other gunsmiths.
It is only my opinon of course. I don´t want to made you fell unconfortable or something, so plesase accept my excuses in advance.

Offline A.J.

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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2006, 10:00:03 AM »
Ditto, gufote...I haven't heard of a rash of Spanish barrels exploding, and in this lawsuit-happy society we live in I can't see anybody purposely selling something dangerously defective. If the newbie wants to start with a top of the line, expensine in-line, he couldn't do any better than an Encore, but if he's not, there's nothing at all wrong with the Winchester. 'nuff said..
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Offline str8shooter48

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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2006, 11:48:47 AM »
I myself shoot an Encore and love it. As far as CVA, Winchester, Traditions etc. I'm sure they will all perform safely if you just use your head and use safe loading and shooting practices. I'm sure If you try hard enough you can blow up any of them including the Encore.

If your a first time shooter get some reliable information in the form of a video or book on Blackpowder shooting, and heed the warnings. Every new gun comes with an owners guide. Read it understand it, and by all mean follow it.

If at all possible go shoot with a person experienced shooting Blackpowder. Its a safe sport if you use your head.

Offline WylieKy

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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2006, 12:07:02 PM »
I have had two ML rifles, and have no complaints about either.  Ruger M77/50 and TC Omega .50.  (The Omega was susposed to be a Encore, but when you get a ML from your wife for Christmas, you don't complain.)  Both are accurate and fun to shoot.  I prefer the Omega because it is MUCH easier to clean.
This that I do, I do by my own free will.

Offline Adkhunter

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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2006, 01:41:42 PM »
I just recently got back into ML.  20 yrs ago I did but then took a leave from it because of the lack of interest, I guess. ----don't kill me for that excuse!!!
Sorry guys!!!
Anyway, I was looking at the A&H but couldn't afford one. This last fall i took down a chimney for a friend and he bought me a T/C Omega Z5. Talk about easy to clean and a good shooter.
There are lots of good guns out there. Buy what you can afford for sure but don't count out the Encore or Omega.
This same buddy of mine just bought a CVA wolf and loves it.

Offline doegirl

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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 07:03:00 PM »
It amazes me how some act as though the CVA recall happened yesterday.  It covers firearms manufactured 9-11 YEARS ago.  What has happened since then?  More recalls?  Nope.  Give it a rest, please.
The CVA Kodiak would be a decent first gun.  The Omega has the same action, better fit/finish and is more $$.  If you can, go to a store with some halfway knowledgable folk to help you with the decision making.

Offline UtahRob

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Beginner Muzzleloader
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 07:36:53 PM »
I'm with you gufote & doegirl.
 Every time is see a post were someone is asking  what gun  they should get ,you get a post saying how supposedly dangerous these Spanish made muzzle loader are and supposedly so many are blowing up.  Thanks to old Randy :evil:  ( I have a grudge to pick)Wakeman
 and some of his fans I don't think this anti Spanish made CVA and Traditions talk  will ever go away. We have a T.C. Omega, a CVA Optima and a Tradition pursuit pro and they are all GREAT guns.  My Tradition P.Pro and my son's CVA optima both out shoot our T.C.Omega hands down .

                                                                      Rob :D

Offline gufote

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« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2006, 08:56:41 PM »
Well in my humble opinion.
What I do when I consider to buy a new gun is:
Go to the range and look if someone have the same, ask hin polite to do a couple of shoots with it. There are alwys shooters willing to share ther expertice with a new shooter.
I look after how confortable I feel with the gun, how well I take aim, how it drops in to the shoulder.
And then of course I look at my budget and try to find as much information as I could, with all of that I make up my mind and go for it.
But I think that the mos important is that information that you get in the range form the owners.
That is my little piece of advice for a new shooter.
By the way Utahrob what does mean the expresion doegirl?
Regards.

Offline skamaniac

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New gun
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2006, 02:03:13 AM »
Figure out what your budget is and buy the best American made product you can afford.  And if one of those companies happens to be in your home state, buy from them.  Support your local economy if you can.

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2006, 06:40:33 AM »
gufote

  doegirl  is  another handle or nickname that  another person is using that I agreed with. Look 4 posts above

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Offline AndyHass

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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2006, 07:25:41 AM »
The Spanish barrel thing is a fabrication dreamed up by Randy Wakeman.  If you don't believe me, show me a string of reports of these barrels exploding out of proportion to any others.  Good luck, I've looked and it's just not out there.  I think we should get this on Myth Busters...Just because a barrel says 10,000 doesn't mean it blows at 10,000, it means they didn't test it higher.  It might handle 100,000 for all you know.  Sure, it'd be nice to know, but given the number that are out there and the dearth of lawsuits what explanation is there other than they are SAFE???

That being said, most guns equipped with Spanish barrels (namely Traditions, CVA) are of lower OVERALL quality (trigger, action, stock etc) than American-made counterparts.

A new shooter has several concerns:
1) Ease of cleaning
2) Ease of proper ignition (ie avoiding misfires)
3) Ease of tuning (getting a bullet/load that shoots well)
4) Quality
5) Powder choice

Two basic non-flintlock types (flintlocks are not the best for beginners):
1) Sidelocks - This is what I started on.  Cheaper price for many, but they are less forgiving in terms of following proper procedure to get reliable ignition.  A lost a couple deer to misfires/hangfires, especially in cold weather, while I was learning.  

2) In-lines - Easier all-around to learn, but most are a bigger pain to clean.  The Omega-style guns have solved this problem however by eliminating blowback into the action.

As for overall quality, I'd rank the ones I have EXPERIENCE with as follows:  T/C (Omega+Encore), Knight, CVA, Traditions.  Austin-Halleck I have never shot, nor White (which has serious corporate issues).  Both have their followers.  I have not shot an NEF either though I will soon.  The Winchester Apex is made by the same company as some of the other lower-quality guns but I've actually heard it's a little better than them (but never shot one).  My first two were Traditions and I'll never own another; the quality, especially of the triggers, was abysmal.

I shy away from any gun that requires a proprietary insert for the primer.  This is Knight, and correct me if I'm wrong but NEF too?  I don't want to get in the woods/remote location and find myself with lots of primers but a lack of the primer carriers.

The Encore and Omega are both great guns, I have an Omega.  I will admit that these guns can be finicky in finding a good load however.  I've felt the ease of cleaning and quality made up for a few extra afternoons on the bench testing loads (once you find one, it's done but the quality keeps going!).  If you are happy with 80-100gr loads (plenty to whack a deer), it's not as much of an issue as the difficulty increases with more powder.  Some T/C guns have barrel tightness issues, some don't.  I don't know for sure about other brands.

I learned on Pyrodex but I try not to touch the stuff today...so much harder to clean.  777 is a good substitute but has issues (crud ring) in the Omega that I would not want a beginner to fight...use BlackMag3 if you get an Omega even though it costs a little more.

As for bullets, the sky is the limit.  What do you want to pay?  Hornaday XTPs are pretty cheap and perform well.  SST/Shockwaves are awesome and cost a little bit more.  Lots of cheaper ones out there too, and some more expensive (Precision Rifle).

If I were to recommend a gun to a beginner that reaches the best comprimise on all these issues, I'd get an Omega, shooting BM3 and Hornaday 240gr XTPs or 250gr SST/Shockwaves.  If the barrel is tight, try another or come back and ask for where to find slightly smaller sabots.

The Apex would get you in a little cheaper, but I learned after my Traditions experience that it's better to cry once than every time you shoot the gun because you settled for lower quality.  The price you pay for the extra quality of a T/C gun is small.

Offline dispatch 510

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« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2006, 08:37:47 AM »
Alien 319 There are alot of good M/Ls on the mkt,If you are on a budget may I suggest a CVA Wolf in 50 cal. I have a BPI Beartooth Magnum which is the same as the CVA Wolf. I put a bushnell 1.75x4 with the circle recticule on it. I shoot 85 grns of T-7 and a 245 grn power belt bullet aero tip. At 50 yds a 3 shot group is one ragged hole. A friend of mine who is quite a few years older then me witnessed this. He bought himself one and topped it with a red dot, three  shot groups at 80 yds,measured with a range finder measured about 1 inch maybe a little more. I don't think you can go wrong with one of these ,its short and fairly light to carry. Just my 2 cents worth. By the way these are really easy to clean.

Offline smokepolehall

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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2006, 03:49:54 PM »
The NEF Sidekick is a very decent entry ML of the inline type. and most reasonable. They can be ordered from Wal-mart out of their order book. If you live where smokeless powder is legal then the Savage 10MLII is a top contender!
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Offline 257 roberts

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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2006, 04:20:54 PM »
I was in the same boat as you, decided to go with a CVA Buckhorn ($90.00) put a Redfield 3x9 on itand am very very happy with it. :D