Author Topic: ok i don't get it (Read 1283 times)

mjbgalt · « **on:** April 02, 2006, 06:03:39 PM »

I have a .243 die set i bought from someone here at GBO.

it's a LEE, and before everyone starts booing, I use all their stuff and find that it fits the purpose just fine for me.

now, when i take a fired case and put it through the neck sizer, it punches out the primer and everything works and feels normal.

then i put a new primer in and add powder. still nothing out of the ordinary.

now i place the bullet on top of the case and seat it. here's the trouble.

about half the bullets, once seated, can be rotated by hand and/or pulled out!

what the heck?! the other half are just fine and print very tiny groups. the ones that are "loose" shoot bigger groups, of course because of tolerances and gas pressures being off.

what the heck is going on? i think i am going to buy new dies anyway, these were cheap...but we JUST discussed that it's damn near impossible to wear out dies...and if it was a problem AT ALL it shouldn't come and go.

I have asked a couple reloaders this and they look at me like i just voted Democrat and say "uh, no...never even HEARD of such a thing."

-Matt

Graybeard · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:31:25 PM »

If you'll throw those silly Lee dies in the trash can where they belong and buy you a set of Hornady, RCBS, Redding or Lyman dies I'm betting the problem will go away.

Are all your cases from the same lot? Have they been fired about the same number of times? How many? Were any of the loads WAY over hot? Have you checked the OAL of the cases? Is it under max? Have you measured your ID of cases that bullets fit tight in and compared to those loose ones? Have you measured you bullets?

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:34:26 PM »

If some of your 243 loads are holding bullets fine, but others aren't, then there's only one cause that I can think of. I'm pretty sure your brass is wore out, or faulty. The reason they're not holding bullets consistantly can only mean that some of the necks are too thin.

Although I like my LEE carbide 357 sizing die(only), I have to agree with GB. There are a lot of better dies out there.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:37:54 PM »

Or those Lee dies aren't sizing them properly. I've seen worn out cases do this but I think his cases likely haven't been fired that many times. Of course I bought some IMI .44 Mag cases new once and got exactly one load from them before they did the same thing and it didn't matter which dies I used as I have multiple sets from multiple makers. IMI and PMC are two case brands I've wiped off my list to use.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:43:09 PM »

the brass is hornady, and has been loaded a max of 4 times. some less but the box i have with the most loads is 4.

there appears to be no pattern...some get sized right and some don't. if i run it back through the sizer, it usually fixes it.

at one point i could push a bullet into the case with my fingers.

not good.

i will replace the dies tomorrow and see if it helps.

not all that pleased.

-Matt

mjbgalt · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:47:25 PM »

the bullets were two different brands, 95-grain Nosler ballistic tips and 60-grain Sierra HPs.

i also used Hornady 87 grain PSPs and all of these types did this. Assuming now that it is the dies.

i don't have a trim die yet for .243 but the OAL of the cartridges is fine and i haven't even come remotely close to a max load so i didn't worry about trimming after only 3 or so loadings.

i am buying a tumbler and some new brass tomorrow when i get to the shop...the old brass, i may just toss out.

-Matt

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2006, 06:53:15 PM »

OAL of cartridge is immaterial in case length measurement. If you've fired them four times there is a good possibility they need to be trimmed. If you're going to load bottleneck rifle cases you MUST get a case trimmer. I'd recommend one by someone like Hornady, RCBS, Lyman or Forster. All are excellent and by using pilots you can trim any case out there on them. You just can't load bottleneck cases with a means of trimming.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #7 on:** April 02, 2006, 07:04:38 PM »

ah. well i was told before that they pretty much won't need trimming if you shoot 'em a few times and don't go to max loads.

thanks for setting me straight...there is a heck of a lot of misinformation out there.

-Matt

mjbgalt · « **Reply #8 on:** April 02, 2006, 07:05:59 PM »

so is trimming a possible way to solve this problem?

either way i am getting new dies tomorrow...

btw i had a set of LEE .223 dies that did NOT do this. why is LEE such a bad word in certain places?

-Matt

ricciardelli · « **Reply #9 on:** April 02, 2006, 07:06:37 PM »

All your brass is from the same manufacturer and lot?

And you say that if you run the brass through the sizing die a second time the problem disappears?

steve4102 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 02, 2006, 07:07:08 PM »

The Lee Collet Neck Die is well known for producing lose bullets. Take the mandrel out and chuck it into a drill. Take some fine sand paper and reduce the size of the mandrel until you get the tension you desire. Or you can contact Lee and order a reduced mandrel for your particular caliber.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2006, 07:10:33 PM »

ricciardelli-

yeah a couple times i went to seat a bullet and was able to push he damn thing into the case. obviously this is bad. lol.

so i ran it through again and this time it was tight.

seems it should just work in the first place.

-Matt

mjbgalt · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2006, 07:14:56 PM »

steve4102-

you forget though, some of these are coming out correctly. if i change the size, what happens then?

-Matt

steve4102 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 03, 2006, 02:00:14 AM »

Give Lee a call. Order one of their reduced mandrels. They are only $5. Then you will have the original if the mandrel is not the problem.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #14 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:10:27 AM »

Have you disassembled the die and cleaned the collet and other die parts well? It may be gunked up and therefore giving patchy results. Also make sure you're consistant in what you're doing on the operator end.

Ian

Questor · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:28:44 AM »

Replace the die with a good brand of product. Lee is an inferior brand.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2006, 04:10:53 AM »

Having loaded for the .243 for years, depending on how hot you load them, 4 times could be near end of life for the brass. You don't mention the load so we really don't know much about the load.

Is there a bright ring forming around the head? Take a paper clip and bend it with a short 90 degree angle on the end an then run it lightly down the inside of the case. When you get close to the bottom you will probably feel a groove where the bright ring is. The more brass that has flowed from the head to the neck the more you'll be able to "feel" it and the deeper the groove, the closer you are to a head seperation.

Usually, in my experience, when the cases need trimming and the necks thicken the bullets are to tight, not to loose, so my thinking is that trimming probably won't solve the problem but I'd trim to minimum length anyway for consistancy sake.

Have you tried annealing the brass to soften the neck?

Also, about the neck tension, I've had better luck with a loose bullets as far as accuracy goes but I loaded and shot it as a single shot.

bull · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2006, 05:19:56 AM »

Yeah, the Lee Dies arn't top of the line, but we all don't drive Cadillacs either. The Lee dies I have work, as long as you don't expect too much and you set them up properly. With the collet dies, cartridge length can be a factor. Also, if you read the directions with the dies, you can increase neck tension slightly by screwing the die in a little further, 1/8 to 1/4 turn, and putting more pressure on the press handle. But be careful, you can go too far. Also, you mention different brands of bullet, check diameters, they may be more different than you think. Finally, yes, the sizing mandrel may be too large, the drill motor and sandpaper does work, but again, go slowly. If all that doesn't work, then call Lee. They supposedly have pretty decent cusomer support. Does this happen to be one of the delux sets that also includes a full length sizer die also?? If so try the FL die and see what it does. Just my opinions though.

bull

mjbgalt · « **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2006, 06:15:05 AM »

this is just the neck sizer die. i don't have the FL die. the loads i am using...

33.5 grains of Varget with a 95-grain Nosler BT

41.0 grains of Varget with a 60-grain Sierra HP.

neither one is even close to a max in it's individual range of loads.

The brass is Hornady and looks fine to me and I do not detect anything out of the ordinary.

I have not gotten my tumbler yet, so maybe it's just a little dirty? I have been cleaning them by buffing with an old t-shirt but I was allowing myself only 3 or 4 loads before tumbling them (shops near me did not have tumblers in stock so i was waiting on them).

They aren't filthy but they don't shine like new either.

-Matt

lilabner · « **Reply #19 on:** April 03, 2006, 06:52:41 AM »

After repeated firing, the inside diameter of the case necks should be reduced, not enlarged. And yes, you should run cases through a trimmer and deburr the case mouth regularly. I have used Lee dies for years, and there is one little problem with them that requires attention - the die setting can shift as it is not locked in place. This can be resolved by resetting the sizing dies per Lee's instruction sheet each and every time you use them. If that doesn't work for you contact Lee and they will replace your dies. Hope this works for you.

Swamp Fox · « **Reply #20 on:** April 03, 2006, 07:40:21 AM »

Everyone is focusing on the dies. Dies don't "grow" and then "shrink" randomly between each piece of brass.

Does this happen randomly during a sizing session or is it ok one session and loose the next session.

Does your press "cam over" at full stroke?

Do you clean the inside of your necks before resizing.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #21 on:** April 03, 2006, 08:05:41 AM »

A tumbler is nice but you can certainly do without one. Some 0000 steel wool, or one of the 3m pads and your brass will be shiny as new in no time. Really, only minimal cleaning to avoid scratching the die is necessary and not likely the problem. You may want to clean and lightly lube the inside of the neck.

How much of the case neck are you sizing?

I bedded my bolt action Ruger all the way up to the bottom of the action and removed the magazine completely and load one round at a time. I "soft seat" the bullet and leave the bullet seated farther out so that when I close the action the bullet will hit the lands of the rifleing and slide back into the case. I want my bullet to move easily in this rifle as in this application I want the bullet to contact the rifleing and don't have to worry about the cartridge working through the action. With my expanding ball I can make the bullet a little tighter by sizing more of the neck thus putting more surface area in contact with the bullet.

It is also possible that all the bullets should be loose, and maybe the die isn't locked down straight and is varying just a bit each time you stroke the press. Or, the stem on your expander ball is bent just a little.

If you have a full length resizing die you could adjust it to neck size and see if you still have the problem.

I doubt it's the die, as some cases are fine, so that leaves the case and the the adjustment in the press.......Have you re adjusted everything and locked the die down good?

Your die might be fine, and if you want to crimp the bullet you might need a different die, or different expander ball.

I would also think that it isn't necessarily a neck sizing problem as it could also be a bullet seating problem if the bullet isn't starting in the case straight.

I went to a wilson neck sizing die and bullet seater many years ago for loading rifle cartridges. They are slow, but very accurate and you just don't run into these kind of problems very often when using them.

It would be nice to have a good micrometer, and a dial indicator and v block as well as a good calipar. I think your going to have to start measuring some stuff to figure out exactly what the problem is.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #22 on:** April 03, 2006, 09:49:42 AM »

it happens randomly...to me it looks like i am doing everything the same and getting different results...which is why i asked this question to begin with...just doesn't make sense.

"cam over"

when i pull down on the lever and insert the brass into the die, there is some play in the turret, it moves upward a tiny bit.

but again, i had .223 dies that were also lee and were right in the same press that had none of these problems.

-Matt

243tom · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2006, 10:09:02 AM »

Matt,, try turning the case a half turn or so in the shellholder and resize it again. Then check and see if you still have loose bullets.
I just started loading with the same equipment.....that inexpensive Lee stuff......and I've not noticed the problem you're having,,but I do the half turn thing and size twice.

BTW....I'm still trying to get a group out of my Ultra 243 with 87gr Hornadys....the vmax with 35 grs. Varget has been best so far,,about an inch and a half. But I want smaller. I may try 4350 next.
I'll give you a pm ......don't want to hijack this thread.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #24 on:** April 03, 2006, 01:56:35 PM »

i bought new dies, this time RCBS as i like my .45 colt dies by that manufacturer.

we will see what happens.

is there any possibility that my seating die would be at fault? if not then i will leave it alone and change out the sizer.

does anyone know if full length sizing reduces the amount of loadings i will get per case? seems like moving the brass that many times would wear it out faster, like bending a piece of metal enough times makes it snap off.

also, would i lose accuracy at all? i have been neck sizing and that did a good job...i don't want to full length resize only to see my group sizes increase.

tom, throw those damn bullets away, they wouldn't group in mine either.

try a Nosler 95 grain ballstic tip...my gun immediately started to behave when i switched bullets.

-Matt

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #25 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:04:57 PM »

You might try partial sizing. Just take your full length die, and instead of running it down to the shell holder, stop it about .020" short. This often proves to be the best accuracy in a lot of rifles.

If you do this though, be sure to see if a sized case chambers OK before you load them. I learned this the hard way years ago. :oops:

MGMorden · « **Reply #26 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:32:57 PM »

If the dies truly do turn out to be defective, Lee will likely replace them. Their customer service is excellent.

Personally, I've not found their dies to be too bad. Most have worked fine, though my 7.5 Swiss dies did require some "breaking in" before the decapping pin would consitently go straight through the flash hole

.

I've found though, that I really don't like their locking rings, and have bought replacement rings (the proper kinda that tighten down) for all my Lee dies. Given this extra cost, I can't justify buying them anymore.

IMHO, though Lee works in a pinch, Lyman is the best deal out there for dies at the moment. I've also got 1 set of RCBS dies that have been great too.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #27 on:** April 03, 2006, 05:51:39 PM »

ok i full-length resized them, used the new dies, and trimmed them to length and EVERY single bullet was seated tight as can be.

not sure what the problem was...pulled the lee die apart and didn't see anything weird.

dunno...i sure do hate FL resizing...i suppose now i will buy a neck sizer and have wasted my money on this set of dies as well.

-Matt

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #28 on:** April 03, 2006, 06:36:08 PM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

...
does anyone know if full length sizing reduces the amount of loadings i will get per case? seems like moving the brass that many times would wear it out faster, like bending a piece of metal enough times makes it snap off.

also, would i lose accuracy at all? i have been neck sizing and that did a good job...i don't want to full length resize only to see my group sizes increase.
...

When I started relaodign the 7mm Mag I got 4-5 reloads per case, then had a couple case head separations. I backed off the powder charge and got 18 reloads before I got another separation.

As to accuracy, I have never done anything but full-length resizing.

.22-250= 0.50Â” @ 200 yards, 4 shots
.257 Roberts = 0.232Â” at 100 yards, 3 shots
7mm Mag = 0.262Â” @ 100 yards, 3 shots
.300 Win Mag = 0.85Â”, 3 shots

DonÂ’t know what kind of groups youÂ’re getting but I canÂ’t imagine needing better for hunting.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #29 on:** April 04, 2006, 02:09:41 AM »

Quote from: mjbgalt

ok i full-length resized them, used the new dies, and trimmed them to length and EVERY single bullet was seated tight as can be.

not sure what the problem was...pulled the lee die apart and didn't see anything weird.

dunno...i sure do hate FL resizing...i suppose now i will buy a neck sizer and have wasted my money on this set of dies as well.

-Matt

After you fire them try neck sizing with the same die and see if it happens again.