Author Topic: Will this mess ever end?  (Read 2546 times)

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Offline Hammerspur

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Will this mess ever end?
« on: April 03, 2006, 07:15:21 AM »
OK, I decided to try to melt down some magnum shot and pour ingots for casting bullets later. Here's my problem:

Every ingot I pour, despite repeated fluxing, comes out very grainy, granular really, and breaks apart like a sugar cube with little effort.

Some time back I melted down some wheelweights without paying much attention to the individual pieces...most certainly had some zinc ones in the mix. I junked the whole batch as scrap and disassembled my Lee 4-20 wire brushed and sanded the pot thoroughly.

Is the problem I'm now having the result of zinc contamination I didn't get to, or some other problem? How about the melter, is it history?
Steve
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Offline Graybeard

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Will this mess ever end?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2006, 07:35:39 AM »
People often speak of problems caused by zinc in the mix but few seem to have first hand experience using it. I have intentionally used a high zinc content babbit for casting bullets and never once experienced a problem with the bullets, the mix or my pot afterward.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2006, 10:51:09 PM »
guys im with bill on this. To a point. Ive used tons of wws and some had a little zinc in them and it never effected anything. Im guessing something else is wrong. Magnum shot is high in antimony and will be very brittle if you cast it into ingots. Only problem i ever had with zinc contamintion is when i was experimenting with pure zinc bullets. But a good pot scrubbing to care of that. Contrary to what you here you can make good bullets out of pure zinc and shoot them i dont know if there is any practical use for them though and I gave up the project.
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Offline Hammerspur

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Re: Will this mess ever end?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2006, 03:01:53 AM »
(Every ingot I pour, despite repeated fluxing, comes out very grainy, granular really, and breaks apart like a sugar cube with little effort.)

This is not due to zinc?

Is the antimony content sufficient to cause the 'sugar cube' texture and crumbliness of the ingots? Has anyone else had this experience?

Is the alloy salvagable by cutting the antimony ratio by adding pure lead, and how much?
Steve
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Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline Hammerspur

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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2006, 12:55:30 PM »
This stuff is a West Coast Shot, Inc. product. The bag has lead handling warnings but no mention of anything else I can read in the faded lettering.
Steve
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Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2006, 06:06:07 PM »
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(Every ingot I pour, despite repeated fluxing, comes out very grainy, granular really, and breaks apart like a sugar cube with little effort.)

This is not due to zinc?


From my experience working intentionally with zinc alloyed into lead no it's definitely not due to the zinc. Are you doing this before the ingots have had time to FULLY COOL? I've seen the exact same condition you describe when I dumped ingots before they fully hardened but never after they were cool and hardened.

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Is the antimony content sufficient to cause the 'sugar cube' texture and crumbliness of the ingots? Has anyone else had this experience?


No. The antimony content of even the hardest magnum shot is less than that of wheel weights and all type metals have far more even than that so the antimony is not the problem. Magnum lead shot should have about 4% to 6% antimony on average and a trace amount of arsenic in it. Maybe also a trace of tin but not much more.

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Is the alloy salvagable by cutting the antimony ratio by adding pure lead, and how much?


I don't think adding lead is the answer as it is already 94% to 96% lead as it is now. Adding tin would be helpful tho.

I still believe what is happening is that you are dumping the ingots before they have cooled enough to solidify, that's the only explaination I can offer for what you're seeing. If the allow were at fault the pellets would do the same thing yet I'm sure they don't. Just melting it wouldn't cause anything like that to happen. But dumping them while still in a partially moulten state will.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Chuck White

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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2006, 03:13:16 AM »
Could be that the thermostat on your lead pot is set to high!

I know that lead (mix) gets "frosty" when it's to hot!

Couple this with dumping your ingots to quick like GB said and you could have your exact symptoms!
Chuck White
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just get good with it!

Offline Hammerspur

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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2006, 04:04:13 AM »
:oops:  Up to now I've never casted anything but virgin lead (Doe Run) and didn't have any difficulties with ingots or bullets. They set (cooled?) quickly and retained integrity.

I did initially add tin to the mix at a 50:1 ratio (25 lbs. shot to 1/2 lb. Sn).

I'm going to try a lower melt temp. and longer wait before tipping the ingots out. Probably won't get to it today, the weather's lousy and I do my 'alchemy' outside on the back patio. Rain and snow showers predicted... :?

Thanks very much for the input and suggestions. :D
Steve
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Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline Jim L.

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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 11:30:45 AM »
Mag lead shot has too much Arsenic!! That is what is causing the brittle nature. Mix shot with 2/10 WW and it will go away. I know what you mean. Crimping bullets will make then SNAP into when in the crimping die. Trust me on this one. I found out making HARD casull bullets to keep the forcing cone damage to a minimum on 454s.

Jim

Offline Hammerspur

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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 11:45:11 AM »
Quote from: Jim L.
Mix shot with 2/10 WW and it will go away.

Jim
Do you mean two parts WW to ten parts mag shot? That would be 5 lbs. ww to my 25 lb. bag of shot.
Couldn't I use 5 or fewer lbs. of lead to achieve the same end? (That would save my having to clean another batch of crappy ww's.)
Steve
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Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline halfbreed

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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2006, 04:38:04 PM »
I have been casting for nearly 30 years, I may not be an expert, but I do know a thing or two. I agree with some others, it is not the zinc, I too use ww and a little chilled magnum shot from time to time. The brittleness is coming from the lead being too hot, way too hot, i intentionally tested this while making some 3oz. sinkers ( for fishing below the dams).
 they were so brittle they would break in your hands. let them cool, remelt and cast at a descent temp and good to go. Occassionally did this with a few bullet molds too. A good rcbs temp gauge ended this problem. hopefully for good.
 Halfbreed

Offline Hammerspur

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Will this mess ever end?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2006, 01:59:45 AM »
I think the lower melt temp and longer cooling will straighten out my conundrum...only thing, the bottom pour spout clogged. Attempted to pick it clean with a piece of paper clip wire, which promptly broke off in the spigot, Geezizz!
 
What a ham-fist I've been lately... maybe it's the arsenic fumes? Yeah, that's the ticket! :)
Steve
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Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!

Offline Veral

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Re: Will this mess ever end?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2006, 06:23:06 AM »
  I've left most of the posts of members answering in place because I'm lost on this one too.  I've never had such an experiance nor heard of anyone else having it.  So I'll give my suggestions and ask that you post whatever solves your problem so the world can avoid the misery you've gone through.
  Re:  The overheated alloy suggestion.-If you are using a Lee pot in a breezy area, (which is wise to avoide fumes) the breeze WILL cool the thermostate housing enough that the thermostate fails to sense pot temperature.  I've seen the alloy glowing red hot in dim light with LEE pots in a breezy area, and when placed in front of an exaust fan. All the other melters I've seen or used, put their thermostate senser inside the pot housing and sense temperature more accurately. - If you don't have a thermometer, you can see a dull red glow at about 900 deg F if the pot is in a dark area, but it won't be visible in good light.  Since 900 is a safe upper end temperature for most alloys, a dark test will reveal whether your pot is overheating the alloy excessively.  Excessively meaning that oxidation and excess fumes will be given off.  Far better to work at a temperature only a little above melt temperature of the alloy of interest.
  Re: Excess Arsenic.  High levels of arsenic are used in shot to make it form rounder balls as it falls from shot towers.  I've read of it causing cracks in bullets, but never causing crumbling.
  Re: Cooling ingots in water while too hot. - I've never had a problem with any alloys I've used in this respect.  Even pouring molten lead into water leaves firm balls and pieces.  (Shot is poured at the lowest possible temperature.)
  My suggestion is that too much arsenic, coupled with a Lee pot on a breezy porch, and perhaps going away to wait for the shot to melt down, but not returning soon enough. (This is a common ailement of mine!) My guess being that long exposure to excessive heat causes the problem.
  When using shot for bullets it is normally considered wise to use it primarily as a source of arsenic, in quantities of about 10% shot, which supplies adaquate arsenic for good heat treatability of the alloy.  Arsenic vaporizes off readily at high temperatures and is extreemly toxic in gaseous form.  Always use good ventilation when melting lead of any kind.  If you can smell it when you walk into the casting area after a short absense, you don't have enough ventilation. 
Veral Smith

Offline R J Talley

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Re: Will this mess ever end?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2006, 06:33:57 AM »
Veral, I am so glad to see you are back. Welcome home. I'm going to have some business for you in the next month or so. I just bought a new Win BB 94 in .375. I'm going to do your chamber sluging method and have you make a mould for me.

I'm wondering if this gentleman isn't casting at too high a temp with too little tin in that mix. My experience is that when Antimony and arsenic have been added to a melt, there must be some tin present to keep the crystals from forming. Also, temps over 800 degrees have given me similar problems in the past. That's my .02 FWIW
R J Talley
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