Author Topic: Dangerous muzzleloaders  (Read 11988 times)

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Offline skamaniac

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Dangerous muzzleloaders
« on: April 05, 2006, 02:41:09 AM »

 ;D

Offline Busta

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2006, 06:44:32 AM »
Just a little advice, don't believe EVERYTHING you read, especially from that author. He has a hidden agenda and four years ago he didn't know SQUAT about muzzleloading. He is in the business of using people for their knowledge, then trying to discredit them. He has learned alot in the past four years, but the Muzzleloading Industry will catch onto him in due time, just not soon enough IMHO. He used to have positive reviews of BPI products on that site too that have magically disappeared, such as the CVA Optima and Winchester X-150 to name a couple. Follow the money trail, he'll be on it somewhere! :wink:  

With that said I do not own a Spanish Made muzzleloader, but for other reasons.
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Offline sabotloader

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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2006, 07:49:07 AM »
Gosh I hate to see this get started again...

Busta is right on....
Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline Keith Lewis

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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2006, 08:49:21 AM »
You know this whole thing could be put to bed if CVA and Traditions would step up to doing some legitimate testing and report the results. I know that some of the barrels are actually now being made by another barrel manufacturer (especially the smokeless ones) and they are from button rifled barrel blanks not the extruded stuff that seems to be creating all the  debates. I don't have any spanish barrels anymore because for one thing I would rather support the American companies and I got tired of explaning to people that it was OK to shoot the spanish barrel rifes that I did have.

Offline Duckbill

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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2006, 09:26:55 AM »
There is a lot of good info on CHUCKHAWKS website.   After the way Randy came across on this forum and others, however, I'm not a fan.  He acted like an arogant know-it-all and demeaned anyone who questioned him.  He lost the respect of a lot of folks when he did that.
On the guns...I'm not crazy about the CVA's and Traditions.  I would by a low end Knight or T/C before one of them.  Are the spanish barrels safe to shoot?  Probably.  I don't think they would sell something that will land them in court.
Isaiah 41:10

Offline A-con

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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2006, 10:06:31 AM »
I checked the links and read what he has to say.
Mr. Wakeman runs a lot of dirt on CVA & Traditions, while talking up Savage, TC & Knight.
Where do the  New England muzzleloaders fall in all of this ?

Offline AndyHass

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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2006, 03:24:48 PM »
Randy used to demean the Savage smokeless too...until he had a financial stake in them, then they were better than Jesus.

There's a reason you never hear from Wakeman on any ML sites anymore...he has ruined any and all credibility he ever had with anyone.  He's a Savage guy now, and even the guys on the Savage boards have no respect for him.

The whole BPI barrel thing was a product of Wakeman's imagination.  If these barrels were so dangerous, why haven't we been seeing them explode by the fistful?  I've owned a couple Traditions and they were far from quality guns, but I never worried about the integrity of the barrel.  Truth be told, I did some things to one of them that should have blown a weak barrel and it was just fine.

Offline Rex B

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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2006, 06:34:53 AM »
I just last week got one of the low-end inlines from BPI. They had refurbed inlines for $70, plus a free accessory kit, so I thought I'd get one just for plinking.    Now I'm a bit hesitant to shoot it.

Offline gufote

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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 06:50:05 AM »
REX b, belive me, don´t be hesitant to enjoy your purchase.
I've been shotting spanish guns since the first time I went in to a range, and I've never see any of the accidents descrived by that Randy.
And I tell you another thing, if a lot of shooters could track back their barrel to the origin factory, even that one which are not mark as made in sapin, probably lots of then would have a surprise. Because probably the 80-90% of Ardesa´s market is overseas, and they sell their product with their trade mark or blank as requested by the final manufacturer.
So, go and enjoy your smoke pole whith out any doubt, but always following the safety rules and comon sense.
Regards
 :D

Offline AndyHass

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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 07:05:47 AM »
Rex, just enjoy the gun.  Stay within the perscribed loading and you'll be fine.

Offline A.J.

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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2006, 08:36:04 AM »
According to people who hate Glocks for whatever reason, claim they are unsafe guns that could explode at any minute. I've carried a Glock as a duty gun for the last 11 years without a problem...never heard about any class action lawsuits against Glock from all it's "victims". Same with the Spanish barrelled BP guns. They're supposed to be so unsafe, yet there's probably been millions of them sold. How many of these guns do you KNOW (and I mean personally know the person it happened to) blew up? If these Spanish barrelled guns were brand new on the market I'd probably be wary of them, but as long as they've been around without any credible bad track record, I'll trust them. If mine blows up on me, I'll get on here and type out an apology to the Omega/Knight/Encore owners with my one good eye. :?
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Rex B

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Spanish guns
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2006, 10:01:13 AM »
Point well taken on the Spanish barrels. I built up 5 CVA kits 20 years ago or so, and have shot them all with patched round balls.  I think the biggest load I ever used was 90 grains of FFFg Pyrodex.
  As far as that goes, my first gun was Spanish, a Cometa Spring air rifle, which I still have and am about to start restoring.

The hesitancy with this inline is that is uses (recommended) podwer pellets, PowerBelt bullets, and shotgun primers - all new ground for me.    And the thinner round barrel doesn't help.

 I figure I'll load it at 100 grains under a PowerBelt and be fine regardless.

But if they don't ship that accessory kit, I may return it just to make a point.

Offline UtahRob

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Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2006, 10:05:48 AM »
Randy :evil:  , Randy :evil:  ,Randy :twisted:   a legend in his own Mind!
 I am so sick of Randy(the KING of Bull ) and his fan club (get a Life !!) posting the same old trash over and over !!
 I am not worried in the slightest about my Tradition pursuit pro or my son's CVA  Optima ever giving us any problems.  :grin: They both out shoot my other son's T.C. Omega  And they are easier to load. If you do not like them  :evil: or trust them :evil: , then don't buy one !!!!!!!!!!!!

                                           :D

Offline 257 roberts

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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2006, 05:48:22 PM »
Don't want to get in the middle of a pee-pee contest BUT my nephew and I bought a CVA bighorn and a Traditions M/L because we weren't sure if we would like M/L and didn't want to tie up alot of money, these cheap guns shoot very very well and we like them. :D

Offline gufote

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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2006, 12:02:29 AM »
Rex B.
First congratulations for your spring rifle, you are the owner of a well made gun. Restore it, enjoy it againg and for God shake, never sell it , if it is old, you are the owner of a clasical well made gun.
For the inliner, I shoot black powder as you guys call it "lose" and a bullet .44 cast by my self in a plastic sabot .50
Go on enjoy it and share your experiences with it.
I would like to see some photos of that oldie cometa.
 :D

Offline Sabothunter

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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2006, 05:34:17 AM »
All these gossips about CVA/BPI and Tradition are BS. HE is getting payed for saying stuff like this to make other people turn away from these company. He problebly didn't get a contract or deal with them.

I just bought a Kodiak .50cal 2 months ago and put maybe 80 rounds thru it. Shot about 30 rounds of 150gr. 777 pellets with 300gr. bullet, Nothing happen. Very accurate gun. This is not the load I'll be using for whitetails but if I have to, I wouldn't hasaitate.
Practice make perfect!!!

Offline jomiri469

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dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2006, 01:57:22 PM »
All I can say about the Wakeman articles is that this has not been my experience. I have a 54 caliber Sile, an Italian gun, Hawken style, a TC 50 cal Black Diamond and a CVA Kodiak Pro Magnum, 50 cal. I love every one of them but if I could only keep one, it would be the CVA Kodiak Pro. Accuracy about the same as the Black Diamond but it much easier to clean and there no blow-by on the scope. When I bought the CVA Kodiak, I was actually leaning toward the TC Omega but I didn't like the trigger space nor the price as I bought the Kodiak with a stainless steel fluted barrel for about $200 less than the Omega. TC a great company no doubt but to demean the CVA just because it's Spanish made is crazy. Any barrel will explode if you mistreat it and overload it enough.

Offline Adkhunter

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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2006, 03:09:37 PM »
Just shoot it and don't worry.

None of what I said above is to be considered gospel and to be used or misconstrued as the thing to do....... :)

Every maker of gun has had it's day making crap. Believe what Mr. Wakeman says or don't. Believe some of what he says because some it is the truth. Like him or not he sure gets paid more than I do.  His articles are fun to read too. If his head inflates a bit good for him. Isn't life about feeling good?
Be careful and shoot it! Every BP gun by every maker needs to be inspected occasionally by a professional. Have it done on occasion.

My personal opinion is that the Savage is a cheaters gun.  :shock:  :D
I want on some day :wink:

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2006, 02:28:34 AM »
Quote from: Sabothunter
All these gossips about CVA/BPI and Tradition are BS. HE is getting payed for saying stuff like this to make other people turn away from these company.


And who, exactly, is paying me?

Are they also paying Doc White, Larry Weishuhn, Del Ramsey, Chuck Hawks, etc.?

Erik Zenger was paid, but not enough, apparently:

I am very sorry to hear that there continue to be people injured by CVA muzzle loaders.  
 
As I mentioned before I was injured by the Prohunter version of CVA rifle that was included in the recall that CVA initiated in 1997. The recall covered all Prohunter rifles that had been manufactured in 1995 and 1996.   I purchased my CVA rifle in 1999 at a local sporting good store.  It was a rifle that had been a trade-in, but which was brand new and never shot.  I was sighting in my rifle on November 4, 2001 with my brother.  My brother had shot the gun 7 times and handed it to me saying that his shoulder was getting sore and that it was my turn.  It was my first shot which went terribly wrong.  It was determined later by several specialists that 2 separate, but related manufacturer defects, ultimately resulted in not only my gun failing, but the many others that these specialist had investigated.  These two defects were 1) the steel the barrels were made of was substandard and 2) the pre-drilled scope mounting holes were drilled too deep.  This ultimatly caused the barrel to split around the circumference at the point of these holes.  In my guns case, the part that blew out the back of the gun was actually the last 1.5 inches of the barrel (which included the breech plug), then of course the bolt mechanism, the spring and the plastic end cap at the back of the gun.  
 
I have the written reports about the defects from one of the specialists that I would be more than happy to forward on to you.
 
Yes, you are correct that I have settled my case.  It was a very disappointing settlement, and is actually becoming more and more disappointing as I have both new and continuing medical problems.  I was surprised that I was not required to sign a confidentiality agreement at the time of settlement.  I have often second guessed the whole settlement process and my final decision....but there is nothing that I can do now.  To make matters worse, I was "sued" by my health insurance company for all of their out of pocket expenses related to my care.
 
I would be more than happy to help in any way possible to make people aware of the dangers of CVA guns, and to bring down CVA and the capitalistic pigs that run it.
 
Feel free to contact me.

 
Erik

When a manufacturer tells you to shoot a load that produces over 28,000 PSI in a barrel proofed only to 12,000 PSI, and rated for below that figure-- it shouldn't take any reasonable person to wonder why doing that is not a particularly smart idea. :shock:

No reputable riflesmith, ballistician, powder manufacterer, barrel maker-- no one with any rudimentary firearms knowledge would ever suggest that you shoot a load anyehere near proof pressure, let alone exceed it.

Offline A.J.

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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2006, 05:11:19 AM »
Finally shot my new Winchester Apex this past weekend. I was pretty impressed with it...for the most part. I was shooting 250 grain Hornady SST's over a hundred grains of loose BlackMag 2 powder. Can't tell much about the grouping yet, but it has a great trigger. That BlackMag powder is real clean burning stuff. My only problem was the scope. I ordered the whole kit..scope and all from Cabelas, and the scope was a piece of crap. I sent it back yesterday. My half brother keeps harping on me to shoot Powerbelts. Says all them sabots will do is clog my rifling with plastic. Any of you sabot shooters have that problem? Also, anybody got a good reccomendation for an inexpensive variable scope that seems to be worth the money?
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Offline Keith Lewis

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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2006, 10:30:09 AM »
I put a Simmons shotgun scope (Model 807786 prodiamond reticle) on my Omega and the one I picked is a camo finish. I got very good clarity and am impressed with the function after a couple of years. I have other similar priced scopes that are not anywhere as clear. Seems to pick up light better also giving me late in the day good picture. (it is a 1.5-5 power) I don't like high power scopes on muzzleloaders. In fact I have the same scope on my 7X57 Mauser. With the lower power I have made running shots in the trees without a lot of distortion or loss of game sight. I usually keep it in the lower modes. I also like the diamond crosshair as my central vision is poor due to macular degeneration of the focal point in my strong eye. By the way I would not worry about the plastic fouling unless you shoot a lot more than I do between cleanings. It is important to use a good cleaner that will remove the plastic from time to time.

Offline skamaniac

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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2006, 02:02:24 PM »
Just remember, you get what you pay for.  What is your scope budget?

Offline UtahRob

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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2006, 04:17:50 PM »
Boy I Just  hate My Spanish Made Tradition Pursuit pro!! :wink:  :wink:
 The way it's shooting I should  dump it and get a $800.00 Gun!! :wink:



  4 shot group at 70 yrds , open sights and sight vise used to see what kind of group I could get with the loads I was using.

     

Offline gufote

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« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2006, 06:41:46 AM »
What was the distance? :D

Offline upnorth

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« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2006, 10:19:54 AM »
My bad experience was not with the barrel, but the traditions e-bolt fired when I closed the bolt....twice!!. Thankfully, it happened on the range under controlled conditions. When I called the manufacturer about this, the response was even worse. I sold the gun at a deep discount, went to an encore and never looked back. Would never look at one of their guns again.
you wanna take my guns? go ahead, it's your arm!

Offline bubba

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« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 03:56:29 PM »
I love the way no one responded to the self proclaimed king.
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Offline doegirl

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« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2006, 04:21:38 PM »
Quote from: A.J.
Finally shot my new Winchester Apex this past weekend. I was pretty impressed with it...for the most part. I was shooting 250 grain Hornady SST's over a hundred grains of loose BlackMag 2 powder. Can't tell much about the grouping yet, but it has a great trigger. That BlackMag powder is real clean burning stuff. My only problem was the scope. I ordered the whole kit..scope and all from Cabelas, and the scope was a piece of crap. I sent it back yesterday. My half brother keeps harping on me to shoot Powerbelts. Says all them sabots will do is clog my rifling with plastic. Any of you sabot shooters have that problem? Also, anybody got a good reccomendation for an inexpensive variable scope that seems to be worth the money?


A.J.: I have a Nikon Prostaff 2-7X on my Kodiak.  I do not know what your willing to spend. But the scope set  me back $120.00.  Figure another $40 for rings.  Powerbelts shoot so well in my gun, I have no choice but to hunt with 'em this year. :P  Some swear by 'em, others hate them, I'm gonna give the powerbelts a fair chance. :D

Offline AndyHass

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« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2006, 11:04:06 AM »
Quote from: bubba
I love the way no one responded to the self proclaimed king.


Why should we?  He posts one example of a BPI gun blowing up and we're supposed to doubt their safety?  Why would one accident make us doubt the safety of a million that have done fine?  For all we know he double-charged or short-started it.

I recall a single Savage blowing up too....and Randy spent months insulting everyone's mothers to defend them to the hilt.  Like I said, he has zero credibility.

Offline Ricci Price

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« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2006, 04:59:59 PM »
Yep, I remember asking a question one time about breech plug design and using brass to create seal in the breech ,on one of the KING's site's and before you knew it I was banned from their site. I found out if you know more than him you are banned quickly. Just stating facts. Actually, my design worked flawless.

Offline Hammerspur

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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2006, 02:10:48 AM »
Quote from: Ricci Price
Yep, I remember asking a question one time about breech plug design and using brass to create seal in the breech ,on one of the KING's site's and before you knew it I was banned from their site. I found out if you know more than him you are banned quickly. Just stating facts.

There's more than enough of that thinking to go around!(Hammerspur)

Actually, my design worked flawless.

Ricci, I remember you saying you were going to try that. If I understand, it works like a gasket between the breechplug face and the chamber 'shoulder' area, is that right? Did you need to mill a smidge off one surface or the other to get proper dimensions?

Can you share some details of the particulars, I think it sounds like a really good lick!  :P
Steve
Quote
Of course guns are dangerous... if they weren't they wouldn't be good for anything!