Author Topic: Dangerous muzzleloaders (Read 11990 times)

A.J. · « **Reply #30 on:** April 22, 2006, 05:45:22 AM »

Thanks, Doegirl...That Nikon sounds like what I'm looking for...

elkstalkr · « **Reply #31 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:11:04 AM »

Quote from: UtahRob

If you do not like them :evil: or trust them :evil: , then don't buy one !!!!!!!!!!!!

I won't

elkstalkr · « **Reply #32 on:** April 24, 2006, 08:12:46 AM »

Quote from: UtahRob

Boy I Just hate My Spanish Made Tradition Pursuit pro!! :wink: :wink:
The way it's shooting I should dump it and get a $800.00 Gun!! :wink:

4 shot group at 70 yrds , open sights and sight vise used to see what kind of group I could get with the loads I was using.

I once heard "the King" (whatever that is supposed to mean) state:

"Sadly, very sadly, accuracy and safety are two totally different issues."

Lane · « **Reply #33 on:** April 24, 2006, 09:23:38 AM »

Quote

I once heard "the King" (whatever that is supposed to mean) state:

"Sadly, very sadly, accuracy and safety are two totally different issues."

Ditto

skamaniac · « **Reply #34 on:** April 24, 2006, 12:21:50 PM »

doegirl · « **Reply #35 on:** April 24, 2006, 07:38:29 PM »

Quote from: skamaniac

[/img][img]https://www.gboreloaded.com/mhp/images/skamaniac/flag.gif[/img]

I don't apologize for being a flag waver. I am proud of it!!
Buy American and suport your fellow countrymen. There are plenty of made in America choices out there and they are all great rifles. T.C., White, Knight, NEF and not all of them cost $800.00. Great rifles that start at $150.00 at Wally world.

Hate to ask, but how will "buying American" ensure your safety? Seems like a seperate issue, entirely. There's plenty of "Made in the USA" products we would rather like to forget. Like Ford Pintos (talk about blowing up

). Support our country, sure, I'm absolutely for that. But slandering CVA just because their barrels are imported is not the way to go.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #36 on:** December 24, 2006, 01:54:16 PM »

Can any of you show us a up to date report on cva/bpi products exploding? The only cva thats ever been know as a hand cannon was the cva apollo on select models. Whats the max PSI barrel pressure on TC, Knight rifles? Do they even pressure test theirs or just slam cva for being stupid enough to give numbers? How about TC for their false advertising on 3 - 3.5 lb trigger pulls on their omegas? Or better yet, ZERO blow back which is a total lie. How many of you will be man/woman enough to admit to sending your TC off for trigger work due to heavy pull and grit? Nothing to be ashamed of, just admit to it. How many of you can shoot them amazing 1" groups at 100 yards with your TC while its not scoped or on a stand? Or better yet, How many of the omega owners can shoot conicals and hit the target and get a good pattern?
Any responses would be welcome.

slave · « **Reply #37 on:** December 25, 2006, 01:38:31 PM »

Im am glad we live in a place that allows us to chose what products we purchase and so many options are provided because of the purchasing power we have as a group of consumers. It is also great we all can voice are opinions.

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #38 on:** December 25, 2006, 03:04:38 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on December 24, 2006, 01:54:16 PM

Can any of you show us a up to date report on cva/bpi products exploding? The only cva thats ever been know as a hand cannon was the cva apollo on select models. Any responses would be welcome.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #39 on:** December 25, 2006, 03:11:41 PM »

lol! another randy follower. the cva apollo is the ONLY cva brand to ever come out with a defective breechplug. And the first cva i believe was sued out of business and BPI bought the name. Show me any reports of a winchester, beartooth,cva staghorn,cva wolf, cva elite exploding. Its amazing at how easily people are scared off by some guy that gets banned and damn near every website he joins. He also could NEVER answer my question to how much PSI TC is rated at. Some people allow themselves to be hearded like sheep.

UtahRob · « **Reply #40 on:** December 25, 2006, 03:26:20 PM »

My sons first Big Game animal with his so called ( dangerous Muzzle loader )

NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!
He dropped it in its track at 105 yards. !!

And to think I only paid $78.00 for it at Wal Mart on close out.
THANK YOU WAL MART !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #41 on:** December 25, 2006, 03:29:50 PM »

holy crap an elk! now im jealous lol. Very good job. what bullet/powder load was he using? Looks like an Optima?

UtahRob · « **Reply #42 on:** December 25, 2006, 03:38:27 PM »

He was shooting a .44 cal xtp in his .50 cal. Optima with 95 grains of ffg.
I feel its a very nice gun and would recommend it to anyone !!

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #43 on:** December 25, 2006, 04:06:03 PM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on December 25, 2006, 03:11:41 PM

lol! another randy follower. the cva apollo is the ONLY cva brand to ever come out with a defective breechplug. And the first cva i believe was sued out of business and BPI bought the name. Show me any reports of a winchester, beartooth,cva staghorn,cva wolf, cva elite exploding. Its amazing at how easily people are scared off by some guy that gets banned and damn near every website he joins. He also could NEVER answer my question to how much PSI TC is rated at. Some people allow themselves to be hearded like sheep.

There was a Winchester X-150 injury barrel rupture report at MonsterMuleys.com -- then two very bad CVA Eclipse reports at hunting.net. Even had lawyers present to discuss the threads there. Both were in 2004. One concerned a flying backwards breechplug - the other saw the plunger/bolt-action get uninstalled quickly. There was a fourth one at huntamerica.com that pleaded for participants to testify. Not sure what happened there.

BTW - Most all BPI barrels are tested to the same pressure - including Winchester barrels. Most BPI barrels are the same mold from gun model to gun model. Adding nickel, stainless, fluting or tapering will not improve the strength. Those BPI strength tests fall way below those of Knight, Lyman and T/C. All three manufacturers told Randy that they tested beyond the proof numbers of BPI. But no manufacturer offers a real world number - because they do not want shooters reaching those upper echelon numbers. When BPI was asked to produce stronger tests as evidence or nod yes that they go beyond those numbers in testing, they declined the invitation.

Feel-free to keep shooting BPI products. God gave us all a free will to choose our own destiny in life. Have fun with it and hopefully it stays in tip-top shape for you. I own four - two T/Cs - one Knight and one Lyman. I went the CVA route and the Traditions route at first. They were serviceable, but I no longer will squeeze a trigger of a gun that I do not trust 100%.

Happy New Year to you.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #44 on:** December 25, 2006, 04:10:32 PM »

lyman isnt much better. reports of broken under ribs. frizzens not sparking, poor bluing that seems to attract rust. and the eclipse is the apollo. If randy got barrel pressure numbers from him, where are they ? he wont answer me.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #45 on:** December 25, 2006, 04:19:05 PM »

yup i found that report on one. I also found what he did wrong. 110 grains triple 7 is to much powder for a .45cal. triple 7 is about 15% more powerful than pyro/blackpowder. Ive already proofed my barrel is strong. that guy should have been using 85-90 grains triple 7. and remember 110 grains Loose triple 7 is a heck of a lot more powder. 1 out of thousands sold.

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #46 on:** December 25, 2006, 04:45:28 PM »

Read my post again. NO MANUFACTURER gives out real world numbers. But all manufacturers that were asked about exceeding CVA proof numbers were somewhat cooperative - all but BPI andTraditions. They presently use the softer Russian, Chinese steel extrusion methods unlike the harder USA steel.

Wakeman has never been banned from any forum for lying about MLs that I've witnessed. He has other issues with some websites that operate muzzleloading forums. From what I hear, his recent issues involve his own self-advertisments in his signatures that are now being outlawed everywhere. What places has he been banned from -other than his dispute with CVA at the now defunct cvaforums.com for muzzleloader lies?

mangulator · « **Reply #47 on:** December 25, 2006, 04:51:58 PM »

Well, I will keep my CVA's and out shoot most T/C's and NEF's. It's funny that CVA is still number #1 in muzzleloaders.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #48 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:01:57 PM »

Quote from: mangulator on December 25, 2006, 04:51:58 PM

Well, I will keep my CVA's and out shoot most T/C's and NEF's. It's funny that CVA is still number #1 in muzzleloaders.

Well put.. we'll let these guys listen to randy and be cheated out of good muzzleloaders. I just got finished floating the barrel on my winchester so im pretty excited to shoot it. Gotta resight in for powerbelts again and give her a go. Rifle has paid for its self with the shots its taken at game. going on 4 years and never had any problems. Very nice trigger also. Recoil pad, eh its useable but im looking into a pachmeyer. Also updating to tru glow sights. I'd like to give the ghost ring a try. Anyone using that sight?

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #49 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:05:21 PM »

Quote

author=bigblock455 link=topic=89844.msg1098307466#msg1098307466 date=1167103145]
yup i found that report on one. I also found what he did wrong. 110 grains triple 7 is to much powder for a .45cal. triple 7 is about 15% more powerful than pyro/blackpowder. Ive already proofed my barrel is strong. that guy should have been using 85-90 grains triple 7. and remember 110 grains Loose triple 7 is a heck of a lot more powder. 1 out of thousands sold.

I guess you having no idea on what barrel-proofing really is. Going 25 grains beyond the recomendation is nowhere near a strength proofing mark. If that were the case with muzzleloaders, all the companies would be in court everyday. That injury was a result of a CVA product defect.

No... the Eclipse is not/was not the former Apollo. The Eclipse was a BPI production. The Apollo was a design of the old CVA ownership. Show me some proof of that same comparison please?

mangulator

Inexpensive product-pricing in a sport designed for short, abbreviated shooting seasons is the reason for BPI being #1 in world sales. Had the world of centerfires never evolved, I seriously doubt the same BPI sales superiority would be occurring. I constantly read on boards like this one that "I want a cheap muzzleloader because I will hardly use it".

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #50 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:05:52 PM »

Quote from: mangulator on December 25, 2006, 04:51:58 PM

Well, I will keep my CVA's and out shoot most T/C's and NEF's. It's funny that CVA is still number #1 in muzzleloaders.

Where did you get that data?

mangulator · « **Reply #51 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:10:55 PM »

Your right bigblock455 we are just banging our heads against a wall. It's better to just walk around that wall with our rifles. I have several friends with the Apex Winchesters and they love them but when I went to buy mine they were sold out so I settled for the Kodiak Pro Magnum same design. I like the way they handle, quick sight picture and a good balance. I know alot of people that can put game on the table with the Winchester muzzleloader of CVA.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #52 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:18:41 PM »

i found a guy with a tc renegade, 90 grains bp, round ball and fired his ramrod. he said it bulged the barrel so bad that he had to buy an replacement. Now this isnt something im proud of but was a very good accidental way to check the strength of the barrel. You know that 26"long aluminum thingy u use to push the bullet down the bore? yeah add its weight and a 385 grain bullet to it with 90 grains pyrodex. After i got up, i felt like i just got my butt kicked by 3 guys and they were all aiming for my head. After that i took it to the shop to inspect it, ran a really tight fitting patch down the bore after i cleaned it to find any loose/bulge spots and after it checked out fine, i went back to shooting. One good thing that i got out of that day,i found out those bullets dont recoil no where near as bad as that ramrod! whats an aluminum ramrod weight? 4oz? some where around a 2000grain bullet that day? Now my question. why would that guys TC bulge with such a light load while my rifle took a real pounding and still goes on living?
Can anyone tell me How stainless steel can vary between countrys? i dont think you can make it any weaker. And i believe its easy to say that a cheaper rifle can give a top quality rifle real stiff compitition when shooting against eachother.

mangulator · « **Reply #53 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:21:27 PM »

Redhawk1, have shot next to guy's with T/C'S and put most to shame but I had some luck and I know my gun and load..

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #54 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:28:00 PM »

Kodiak pro is my second choice if i cant find an apex. i found one used but he's asking a little to much but if i get to the point where i can no longer stand it, i'll pick it up off the guy. Thats what everyone likes about them, great balance, sight picture comes right into play, the breech is actually sealed with no blowback. I just hate spending money on a new inline when i already have one thats proven itself over the years. But yet i feel like im getting cheated by not buying the apex lol. Boys and our toys, what else can say lol.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #55 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:32:47 PM »

Quote from: mangulator on December 25, 2006, 05:21:27 PM

Redhawk1, have shot next to guy's with T/C'S and put most to shame but I had some luck and I know my gun and load..

What is you point? The guy sitting next to you might not of been a good shot. So what have you proven?

I would bet you my Encore agents your muzzleloader that you won't out shoot me at 200 yards with My Encore M/L. I know what my M/L will do. Just how good of a shot are you?

mangulator · « **Reply #56 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:41:11 PM »

Well, Redhawk1, I guess I can't prove how good of shot I am, but I am a good shot. I'm tired of the those who continue to put those people down that do not spend $500 to $800 for a rifle. But if, I have ruffled some feathers I'm sorry..

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #57 on:** December 25, 2006, 05:49:26 PM »

I bet its scoped and sabboted too

I personally dont take someone as a crack shot when they use a rest, the only way you kow how your rifle shoots is by shooting at targets in actual hunting situations you know? The best i can do with my muzzleloader is right at 2" at 100 yards with 120 grains pyro rs and 295gn powerbelt but thats accurate considering i shoot off one knee and use either a tree limb or fence and open sights. Ive tried those shooting sticks and theres no way in heck i ever have enough time to set them up when i see an animal. Tied a bi-pod and the thing fell apart on me with 150 grain mag loads lol. Darn $40 bipod! Just cant buy good quality made in china products anymore.

mangulator · « **Reply #58 on:** December 25, 2006, 06:01:16 PM »

You are correct once you have that rifle sighted in on a "rest" then practicing hunting situations is the best thing. For your information here in Utah magnification is against the law to use a scope that has more than 1X on a muzzleloader (have you ever looked through a 1X power scope? it seems to put everything out additional 25 yards) and yes I do use sabbotes. But have started to consider the powerbelt. But I have such good luck with SST's and Shock-waves its hard to break a habit..

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #59 on:** December 25, 2006, 06:08:32 PM »

Quote from: mangulator on December 25, 2006, 06:01:16 PM

You are correct once you have that rifle sighted in on a "rest" then practicing hunting situations is the best thing. For your information here in Utah magnification is against the law to use a scope that has more than 1X on a muzzleloader (have you ever looked through a 1X power scope? it seems to put everything out additional 25 yards) and yes I do use sabbotes. But have started to consider the powerbelt. But I have such good luck with SST's and Shock-waves its hard to break a habit..

I was originally talking to the other guy. We both know BPI's will shoot pretty much any bullet you put down the bore while TC's fall on their face if its not a sabot. I never looked through a 1x scope but i'll give it a go if i can find one. i onced tried putting a scope on my muzzleloader. what a pain! I gave up, ripped that scope off and went open sights. Filled my tag to. I like inlines but i dont know, when i hold my flintlock i feel more with nature. With my inline i know im good for 200 yards, i see a deer and its boom! with my flintlocks its, bring it up, decide if its in range, if not, back off and lay low and work towards the animal. I find my flintlock alot more fun to shoot. But my inline is still my baby