Author Topic: Dangerous muzzleloaders (Read 11997 times)

mangulator · « **Reply #60 on:** December 25, 2006, 06:19:47 PM »

You know it would be fun to have a shooting match with posters on this forum. But how would we set it up and what would be the rules. Redhawk1, do you have any ideas?

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #61 on:** December 25, 2006, 06:29:48 PM »

that would be fun! 3 off hand shots, 3 rest shots and 3 hunting situation shots from 50-75 and 100 yards with a 5 point bonus 150yard shot to who ever is closest. Bullets would be hard depending on what rifle you shoot. I dont shoot scope and refuse to so thats another issue lol.

UtahRob · « **Reply #62 on:** December 25, 2006, 07:32:08 PM »

We have three in-lines.

One traditions pursuit pro (mine )

One CVA Optima ( Cody's )

One TC Omega $ 107.00 At wal Mart, Close out price. ( Jason's)

The T.C has been the biggest pain to get to group. It belongs to my oldest son who is gone for two year on a mission for our church. He gave up trying to get it to group before he left.

My Traditions and the Optima grouped great with little effort.

AndyHass · « **Reply #63 on:** December 26, 2006, 01:07:55 AM »

Quote from: bigblock455 on December 25, 2006, 05:49:26 PM

I bet its scoped and sabboted too

I personally dont take someone as a crack shot when they use a rest, the only way you kow how your rifle shoots is by shooting at targets in actual hunting situations you know?

No....this is a good way to know how well YOU shoot. The whole purpose of the rest etc is to see how the GUN shoots when as much shooter influence as possible is removed. If you want to tell which GUN is more accurate, you need to get them on tight rests with good scopes. Now, once the gun is accurate, and you want to see who the best SHOOTER is, you go to real-world shooting scenarios.

I have two T/C Omegas...one shoots sub-inch groups at 100yds all day while the other has done no better than 1.5" ever. Truth is, both guns have about the same inherent accuracy, but one has a 9X scope and the other currently a peep sight. The iron sights introduce shooter error, which has nothing to do with the accuracy potential of the barrel.

I currently shoot exclusively T/C, but it has nothing to do with accuracy....my old Traditions Lightning shot inch groups too and was actually not as pick with bullets as my Omegas. However, it took forever to clean, quit firing 209s reliably due to an ignition design never meant to last for frequent shooting, had a dangerous trigger mechanism, and was generally of poor craftsmanship. I shoot T/C because I like quality and want my guns to last a long time and GET USED. My Traditions simply could not hold up to being shot 200+ shots per year.

I'm not ripping on anyone that wants to shoot Traditions/CVA etc etc. Fine with me. My reasons for not doing so have absolutely nothing to do with fear of an exploding barrel....that should be submitted to Mythbusters and get officially debunked. The fact that Wakeman gets scoffed off any ML board he dares post on should give a hint to his credibility.

I find it hard to believe that T/C won't give proofing psi because they don't want people trying to shoot to that pressure. How many people have the ability to measure the pressure to which they are shooting a ML??? Gimme a break. Once again, you're taking Wakeman's word that this is what was communicated. I wouldn't bet on it.

While I don't buy into the weak barrel assertions, someone asked for proof that stainless steel can vary in strength. Well, go a quick search for how many different alloys of stainless steel exist. There are many, and they vary in hardness. Same as with regular steel. Depending upon which alloy is in the barrel, it could vary in strength greatly. That being said, I have never seen the alloy ID # printed on ANY gun barrel.

rks1949 · « **Reply #64 on:** December 26, 2006, 01:29:37 AM »

Apprently T/C,does know how much pressure their barrels will take. They tell you in the manual it's ok to shoot 3 50gr. pellets! Hogdon dosen't make this load available on their site. You can be sure T/C has fired this load many times and evaluated the results"before publishing it in their owners manual. If your gun's manufactor say's to shoot 100grs. powder max there's a reason they say that. I started out many years ago with a CVA .45cal. Hawkin rifle. It was extreemly accurate,but had a flat spring in the lock for the hammer spring. It got so bad that I carried extras with me when shooting. I soon found out that I was shooting allot more than the avarege shooter,and the gun started to show it's age(components failing). From then on I got the Best gun I could afford,and they hold up allot better. If you are the kind of hunter/shooter,that hunts 3-7days a year with your muzzle loader,then one of the low end models will work for you. If you hunt/shoot almost all year long,then you should look at a better gun,that will hold up to allot of shooting. I purchased a new Prohunter in November this year. It's a little over 1 month old now,and has had over 400 shots through it,by spring I'd say it will be close to 1000. The more I shoot the gun the better it seems to shoot!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #65 on:** December 26, 2006, 02:57:11 AM »

AndyHass, great post. That was my point also. I don't knock what anyone choose's to shoot. Like I said, I have shot a lot of muzzleloader's and the reason I stick with the T/C Encore is because my personal preference and it's performance.

I also take Randy Wakemans advice and reading with a grain of salt. I do my own research.

mangulator, you did not ruffle my feathers.

I think a postal match would be a cool idea. But someone that has extra time would have to run it. bigblock455 seems to have the right idea. But it would not be fair to the open sight shooters to compete with scoped shooters.

bigblock455, yes my Encore is scoped, we are allowed to have scopes on our muzzleloader's here in Delaware. I take every advantage to make a humane shot.

If I had to use open sight, I would practice and shoot with open sights. I do shot rifles with and without optics. So I am no stranger to open sights either.

Biff Mayhem · « **Reply #66 on:** December 26, 2006, 03:48:21 AM »

Quote

author=AndyHass link=topic=89844.msg1098307573#msg1098307573 date=1167134875]

I'm not ripping on anyone that wants to shoot Traditions/CVA etc etc. Fine with me. My reasons for not doing so have absolutely nothing to do with fear of an exploding barrel....that should be submitted to Mythbusters and get officially debunked. The fact that Wakeman gets scoffed off any ML board he dares post on should give a hint to his credibility.

There are several permanently scarred former BPI shooters that would like you to visit them for proof that your Mythbusters is Real-Lifebusters.

Quote

I find it hard to believe that T/C won't give proofing psi because they don't want people trying to shoot to that pressure. How many people have the ability to measure the pressure to which they are shooting a ML??? Gimme a break. Once again, you're taking Wakeman's word that this is what was communicated. I wouldn't bet on it.

I have read some of your comments to Wakeman. The only ones I takes equal sides with you on - are the discussions on products that he endorses. Many of those endorsements places money in Randy's back pocket. So becasue Randy cannot be trusted on back-pocket discussions, you deserve a fair shake there. Otherwise, when the discussion is on something that Randy does not endorse, then I give Randy the clear edge.

Too many of Randy's ML safety-scoffers feel that their gun is perfectly fine. They/you feel since the gun has not shown a defect by now, then it will not ever occur. I call that rolling the dice. Myself, I don't care to gamble. I choose to buy products that highly reduce the gambling aspect of the gun's intergrity.

Quote

While I don't buy into the weak barrel assertions, someone asked for proof that stainless steel can vary in strength. Well, go a quick search for how many different alloys of stainless steel exist. There are many, and they vary in hardness. Same as with regular steel. Depending upon which alloy is in the barrel, it could vary in strength greatly. That being said, I have never seen the alloy ID # printed on ANY gun barrel.

How many different alloys of stainless do you think BPI uses on the Apex?....... try one from each supplier - depending on cost. My best guess is that the standard blued American barrels are stronger than BPI's stainless Russian/Chinese metals. I can only use the word "guess" because BPI chooses to slam the door in faces of individuals asking for a simple answer on Do You Test Your Barrels For Strengths Beyond The Listed Proof Marks? Companies that refuse to answer basic, simple, open-to-the-public questions leave undesireable thoughts in my mind - like they are trying to hide something.

Anyone can buy the guns from the door slammers. That is called freedom of choice. I will buy the guns from those than not only answer the door - but they invite me in and answer to my simple question.

Wolfhound · « **Reply #67 on:** December 26, 2006, 05:37:47 AM »

Biff Mayhem,
Randy works for the lawfirm that is handling/has handled many cases against CVA. I used to be a friend of his.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #68 on:** December 26, 2006, 08:50:18 AM »

No....this is a good way to know how well YOU shoot. The whole purpose of the rest etc is to see how the GUN shoots when as much shooter influence as possible is removed. If you want to tell which GUN is more accurate, you need to get them on tight rests with good scopes. Now, once the gun is accurate, and you want to see who the best SHOOTER is, you go to real-world shooting scenarios.

A rest is good to get it dialed in and on sight but what if you're a shooter that just uses a rest and then goes out in the field and never practiced any off hand shooting or real hunting shooting positions? Shooting off a rest is only good for getting it on sight. Does you no good otherwise if you dont know how YOU perform without the rest. A lot of guys will admit to using a rest because they do not trust their ability to shoot with out one. Then there are scopes, i always hear, ah i got bad eye sight. Well im blind as a bat.when i have my glasses on the orange circle still is blurry, yet i still get pretty good groups. Heck sometimes when im watching a field i'll take my glasses off so my eyes are blurry and i can find the dark shapes of deer, then of course i put them back on to make sure it is one before trying to get closer. I also suggested 3 shots with a rest, 3 shots off hand and 3 shots in hunting situations. 3 shots on a rest is more than enough to get your sights adjusted at closer distances. 50-75 yards. I take it russian titanium is weaker than american?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #69 on:** December 26, 2006, 11:15:21 AM »

bigblock455, I use a rest while hunting and I use a bi-pod if I have one in the form of shooting sticks. I don't see anything wrong with that. Scopes don't make you less of a hunter than someone the shoots open sight, at least I know where my bullet goes, not just a random shot at a outline of an animal. I don't need an excuse to use a scope, I just like them better.

I also practice off hand shooting, but if I am hunting and have a chance to use a rest , I am going to use it.

mg66 · « **Reply #70 on:** December 27, 2006, 01:50:32 AM »

I agree with Redhawk1. I will use anything at my disposal to give a clean ethical kill, whether that is a scope, a rest, a range finder etc.

As for the topic at hand, I shoot a CVA 50 caliber Buckhorn using a 100 grains under a Hornady 300 grain 50/45 SST/ML and have no problems. Yes, I agree its not a $600 TC but for me it works. I have fun shooting my CVA all year round and using some common sense believe it to be a safe, reliable ML to shoot.

The manual says I can use 150 grains of BP, personally I think 100 grains is more than sufficient and safer for the shooting/hunting I do, which is from tree stand and usually under 75 yards. In fact this year was the first year I actually used a ML for hunting and 2 shots and 2 deer and both were less than 25 yards.

Bottom line is, with some common sense and safe practices, as is the rule for all shooting activities, I am going to enjoy shooting my CVA at the range and hunting.

AndyHass · « **Reply #71 on:** December 27, 2006, 02:01:54 AM »

Quote from: Biff Mayhem on December 25, 2006, 04:45:28 PM

Read my post again. NO MANUFACTURER gives out real world numbers. But all manufacturers that were asked about exceeding CVA proof numbers were somewhat cooperative - all but BPI andTraditions. They presently use the softer Russian, Chinese steel extrusion methods unlike the harder USA steel.

So tell me, what are T/C and Knight proofed to? You don't know....and I thought they were being soooo cooperative....they just said "uh, oh yeah, we're higher than that?" They just said "oh, we can't tell you for safety reasons"...that in itself would make me just as doubtful.

Tell me, what softer alloys are BPI/Traditions using? I bet you don't know that either, you're just assuming. The truth is you have NO facts here.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #72 on:** December 27, 2006, 09:30:56 AM »

Hey look! Even these guys have the guts to share their barrel PSI, unlike TC who hides it.

http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/modelsprices.htm

mangulator · « **Reply #73 on:** December 27, 2006, 09:41:14 AM »

Nice looking guns!

slim · « **Reply #74 on:** December 27, 2006, 10:23:45 AM »

Do yourself a favor, and buy AMERICAN MADE products, we still make the best products, and you keep other AMERICANS working.
This provides much needed income for our own economy, allowing your neighbors to prosper!

mangulator · « **Reply #75 on:** December 27, 2006, 11:10:46 AM »

Slim, what do you mean by buy American? Most of the large American companies have gone out of country to buy parts and labor. Most of large auto manufacting has and there is a lot of gun companies buying parts for their weapons. Yes, I love to buy American. But some times you can't afford the price.

Buckskins & Black Powder · « **Reply #76 on:** December 27, 2006, 11:39:50 AM »

Quote from: slim on December 27, 2006, 10:23:45 AM

Do yourself a favor, and buy AMERICAN MADE products, we still make the best products, and you keep other AMERICANS working.
This provides much needed income for our own economy, allowing your neighbors to prosper!

Do you drive american cars? probably a mexico built GM? or a canadian made ford? The only thing american made that you can depend on is Snap on tools and mac tools. Do you own an american made tv,dvd player,vcr? Are your shoes american made? how about your clothing? Shame on you for putting american clothing and shoe stores out of business! Do you drive a jap car thats built in america by american blood sweat and tears? nissan,toyota,hyundai,honda are about the only cars actually built in america by americans. Those good 'ol Built in america saying are long long gone! Therefore, if you are buying shoes made in india, clothing made in vietnam, cars that are not american, you sir are putting americans out of business!

AndyHass · « **Reply #77 on:** December 27, 2006, 11:51:24 AM »

Years ago the textile industry was shipped off to China/India/Bangladesh, putting thousands of American textile workers out in areas like North Carolina. Those economies struggled, but now have begun to rebound strongly with high tech, biotech and furniture industries. Many of those areas are now diversified in higher-paying jobs than they had before. Pittsburgh suffered a similar fate with the steel industry (gone to Japan), but is now rebounding and vibrant.

One-horse economies are bad for everyone. I've lived in Michigan most of my life and the marriage to the auto industry is the worst thing that ever happened to this state. Now we're paying the price.

If you shop at Wal-Mart, you enjoy the beauty of globalization...cheap goods made by those most advantaged to be in that industry. It's not going away. Unless you want to pay double for your goods, get used to it because believe it or not it's good for most of us.

Also, I'll buy a Honda engine over a Briggs & Stratton any day. "American made" does NOT always mean quality. Though I love T/C guns...

By the way, some Toyota/Honda models are more likely to be made in the USA by US workers than GM/Ford....

Beers · « **Reply #78 on:** December 27, 2006, 12:09:09 PM »

lol, things seem to have gone a bit off topic, but on the issue of buying "American made", another major point is this: When people buy inferior products out of some romantic "patriotic" sensibility, they are actually harming their country in a way by continuing to support weakness among thier craftsmen... If a company can stay in business turning out shoddy products because droves of people hoping to "support America" will continue to buy thier crap... then they will continue to do so as long as it works.

There a lot of GREAT American companies that produce the finest products in thier fields. I buy from such companies. In many other cases the best quality comes from overseas... in these cases I support America by buying foriegn. If an American company loses too much business to a foriegn company that makes better stuff, their only recourse will be to step up and make better products, thereby bettering American business.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #79 on:** December 27, 2006, 03:01:55 PM »

I think a lot of us got off topic including myself. So lets try to stay on topic here, me included.

skamaniac · « **Reply #80 on:** December 28, 2006, 04:00:31 AM »

When i said buy American, i should have said and what i meant was to support your fellow American WORKERS. This is what keeps our families,friends and neighbor from starving. I also support local small buisnesses. I will spend the extra $ buying from a local gunshop or butcher shop than go to the Big Box stores to save a few pennies.

slave · « **Reply #81 on:** December 28, 2006, 09:48:59 AM »

I give up!!!

I can not keep up with this thread.

I would like to see a poll on the postage shot or some one take the lead and see how it gose. Sounds like fun to me. Maybe we can do this often in different forms as well.

skamaniac · « **Reply #82 on:** December 28, 2006, 12:32:20 PM »

Quote from: slave on December 28, 2006, 09:48:59 AM

I give up!!! I can not keep up with this thread.

I would like to see a poll on the postage shot or some one take the lead and see how it gose. Sounds like fun to me. Maybe we can do this often in different forms as well.

Your right, how about locking this thread?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #83 on:** December 28, 2006, 03:59:52 PM »

Quote from: skamaniac on December 28, 2006, 12:32:20 PM

Quote from: slave on December 28, 2006, 09:48:59 AM
I give up!!! I can not keep up with this thread.

I would like to see a poll on the postage shot or some one take the lead and see how it gose. Sounds like fun to me. Maybe we can do this often in different forms as well.

Your right, how about locking this thread?

No, I think I will keep it open. Even if it went off track, there is still a lot of information through it.

rks1949 · « **Reply #84 on:** December 28, 2006, 04:31:54 PM »

I think a Postal Match would be fun. How hard would it be to set up? What targets do we need to use? Just basic rules? Scoped Iron sights,50yd. 100yd.? Bench,off hand ,prone,ect.?

slave · « **Reply #85 on:** December 29, 2006, 08:51:04 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on December 28, 2006, 03:59:52 PM

Quote from: skamaniac on December 28, 2006, 12:32:20 PM
Quote from: slave on December 28, 2006, 09:48:59 AM
I give up!!! I can not keep up with this thread.

I would like to see a poll on the postage shot or some one take the lead and see how it gose. Sounds like fun to me. Maybe we can do this often in different forms as well.

Your right, how about locking this thread?

No I would not want it locked out either, I was just lost with all of the derection changes. I mean it started out the same old Spanish Steel thing that ends up T/C and others do not publish PSI thing that we have posted often. But out of the blue the whole thing went a new and great direction with the idea of a online shoot off of some sort. Now I dont know about everbody but that sure sounds like alot of fun to me.

If we can agree on the format do to our preference of equipment or local regulations mabe we can do like the IBO and establish a class based on the equipment we use.

For example:

1: Optics and use of a rest would be UNLIMTED.

2: Optics shot without the aid of a rest in a prone standing or sitting position could be OPEN.

3: No optics or rest could be Hunter.

Others are possible. Distanance and class rules could be established through a poll. We could evven turn this into a legue with season ending results or form teams that could compete. Man this sure sounds like somthing we all could enjoy. And maybe it will do the most import thing of all. Get us out to shot more often. Practice makes perfect.

rks1949 · « **Reply #86 on:** December 29, 2006, 07:07:43 PM »

Sounds like fun!

sabotloader · « **Reply #87 on:** December 30, 2006, 10:09:46 AM »

skamaniac

Quote from: skamaniac on December 28, 2006, 04:00:31 AM

When i said buy American, i should have said and what i meant was to support your fellow American WORKERS. This is what keeps our families,friends and neighbor from starving. I also support local small buisnesses. I will spend the extra $ buying from a local gunshop or butcher shop than go to the Big Box stores to save a few pennies.

The problem with this theory is -> you got to have it to spend it... that little extra.... Unfortunately in America today the middle class is disappearing and will continue to disappear. The American dollar is down to something like 60 cents and the average American's wages are not keeping up with the cost of goods. If you are retired and on a fixed income - bargains are a way of life.

Wages and environmental laws are driving most everything overseas and does anybody forsee a change in that?

jmckinley · « **Reply #88 on:** January 20, 2007, 04:08:49 AM »

I know this is a late response to this topic and when i heard about the barrels i almost sold my rifle and then changed my mind. I have a CVA Buckhorn that shoots the XTP Hunter over 100gr Pyrodex pellets inside 1 1/2 inches at a 100 yds all afternoon. It hasn't blown my nose off yet. My only problem with this rifle at little over 6# is it kicks like a mule. In fact the rifle I am going to get for my primary rifle will be a Winchester APEX and frankly wouldn't worry bout my nose being blown off. Wakesman's opinion are his and don't seem to relate to the real world. Like i 've heard for many moons that opinions are like backsidess everyone has one ,some just look better! Jess

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #89 on:** January 20, 2007, 08:42:05 AM »

This topic has been beaten to death so much.......Yeah, some guns blew up (not recently), some people got hurt. Very unfortunate for some people. I am sincerely sorry that it happened, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

That being said, the government has shown in the past that it is more than willing to put a stop to unnsafe products if the need is there. Obviously, since all of the foreign made "trash" is still coming in, the need isn't there. I've seen way more recalls on guns for unsafe triggers, firing pins, etc, than anything for the "unsafe" muzzleloaders.

Shooting a muzzleloader is just like being a reloader for catridge arms. You have to control the amount of powder, the seating of the projectile, etc. You have to use COMMON SENSE. If the manufacturer of the gun says to not use a certain bullet, or powder charge, there is a reason for it.

Hodgdon recommends 100 grain max of loose 777. They feel anything more than that MAY cause unsafe conditions. That's why the 50 grain pellets everyone shoots are actually about 34 grains of powder each. Those 3 pellet loads are just about 100 grains. Just like reloading manuals have max charges, and some people keep going until they reach pressures, even if the charge is over the recommended max, some people use more 777 than the max from Hodgdon. Its a decision you have to take responsibility for. Yes, all of the big manufacturers say 150 grain max load. I would think that they all do tests with that kind of load (maybe even higher) in research. They do have to know if the gun can repeatedly take that load before they recommend it. Doesn't mean you have to use it. Weatherby has shot loads at 200,000 PSI trying to determine strength on their Mark V rifles. Doesn't mean you can shoot that kind of load all the time, does it?

Since companies like Remington and Winchester use BPI and Traditions to make their muzzleloaders, they must be pretty safe guns. These are U.S. companies that won't even put a decent trigger pull on their centerfires because liability concerns, and issue recalls all the time for trigger and safety issues. If there was that much of a safety issue with the Spanish guns, you can darn well bet that the corporate lawyers wouldn't let the Spanish guns wear those names.

I say that you should read the owners manual, shoot the guns, use common sense, and have fun. I don't use CVA or Traditions myself anymore, but I know many, many people that do. They are very happy with them. I like the T/C and Knight guns better, because I have had better accuracy out of them, and I do think that they are nicer quality guns. If you can't shell out the funds for those guns, then it's better to get a more affordable gun than no gun at all. If I couldn't afford T/C and Knight (and others), then you can bet that I'd still be using a CVA or a Traditions. Maybe not as nice, maybe not as much "brand glory" bragging in itself, but I'd rather brag about the experience and the animals any day.