Author Topic: Dangerous muzzleloaders  (Read 12016 times)

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Offline Biff Mayhem

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2007, 08:50:37 AM »
In order to stop the damage created by faulty MLs, the government needs to get their hands on the damaged ML. That's where the manufacturer so cleverly finds ways to retrieve the damaged gun before the government arrives. I have seen situations where someone got seriously hurt & was rewarded with two replacement MLs - plus a boatload of accessories, in exchange for the damaged ML & a signed signature by the injured one that he/she was negotiably compensated. Most all inline accidents are a result of improper pellet/bullet seating or accidental double magnum loading.
Keep that ML smokin'
Dave

Offline sabotloader

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2007, 03:28:39 PM »
Biff Mayhem

The whole answer to this might be as simple as somebody taking a "spanish gun" and send to weatherby or browning in Utah and have the thing tested (actually it may have already been done).  You would think as much crap as RW has put out about how bad they are and how concerned he is about public safety, if he really wanted to sink BPI and his claims were true it would be fairly easy to prove it in an American faciility....

The proof mark on the Spanish barrels is a minimum proof to get it out of the country to the USA - it is a tarrif - just like one of ours - only working the other direction.  The House of Elbar has never said that it is the maximum the barrel will withstand.

Other countries can make guns also - I think someone already made this comparison, but remember the most sought after assult gun is the world is not American - it is Russian....  The most popular car in America is not a GM, Ford, or Chrysler - it is a Toyota - granted most of them are made here now...



Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2007, 05:06:15 PM »
Biff Mayhem:

I absolutely agree that most muzzleloader disasters are the result of improper loading and double loading.  That doesn't mean that there was fault with the weapon.  If you put a too heavy charge of powder in your 30-06 case, BOOM! 

Is everyone who's blown up a rifle with heavy hand loads going to sue Remington, Winchester, Savage???  No, because it's their fault that it blew up. 

You can also bet that any of the big U.S. companies would do the same thing that BPI/Traditions would and have done.  Get the thing settled with as little cost as possible, and do everything they can to prevent bad publicity.  That is a standard policy with almost everyone large company I've worked for, and for just about any company in general.  These include Wal-Mart, Ashland Oil, Valvoline, and others.

Guns get loaded improperly because people don't take the time to read the manual, or just don't use common sense.  Then when they screw up something, it's not their fault because someone else (the manufacturer) could have prevented it somehow, someway.
That unfortunately seems to be the new "American Way."

Sabotloader:

I agree with you.  It would be very easy to prove if the guns are unsafe.  There are even old Apollo rifles (the original bad guns) out there, some still new in the box.  I saw one on gunbroker recently.  The government can get a selection of guns, and run them through grinder until they fail.  They can do the same with American guns, study the results, and then set standards for the market.  As big as the issue of gun control is in Congress, you'd think that they'd jump on an opportunity to prove that a weapon is unsafe.

Offline dmurphy317

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2007, 11:21:45 PM »
It was mentioned that someone should test a BPI gun to see if it is unsafe. I would like to know if RW or anyone else has done any independent "proof" testing on any of the guns mentioned?

For myself, I have done the basic proof testing of a BPI gun. I used a Bobcat sidelock due to it's low cost (for my pocket books sake) and presumably low quality. I am an individual with limited funds so I was unable to do the high tech x-ray, etc. testing but I did document the demensions of the barrel at multiple sites along the barrel after each test load. All loads were properly seated and all firing was done in a controlled setting using a test stand and remote triggering for safety reasons.

I will not publish the specifics of the loads tested in this public forum due to liability reasons but suffice it to say, the loads were far in excess of the recomended loads.  The recoil even cracked the 2x8 backer board that had the hammer assembly mounted on it. The results of the testing showed no changes in the demensions of the barrel and even the nipple did not become loose (the weakest part of the gun). This one test does not prove anything when compared to millions of guns from BPI but it does point to a level of quality in the barrel and metal that is more than adequate for its intended usage.

BTW, I'm in the begining steps of trying to aquire a BPI inline to do similar testing with a magnum rated gun. It will probably be several months before I can camplete that test but hope to have it done by mid year if everything falls into place.
David

It's better to shoot for the sky and come a bit short than to shoot for the ground and hit every time. After all, the ground is just a place to start, the sky's the limit.

Offline Keith Lewis

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2007, 10:56:31 AM »

I will not publish the specifics of the loads tested in this public forum due to liability reasons but suffice it to say, the loads were far in excess of the recomended loads.  The recoil even cracked the 2x8 backer board that had the hammer assembly mounted on it. The results of the testing showed no changes in the demensions of the barrel and even the nipple did not become loose (the weakest part of the gun). This one test does not prove anything when compared to millions of guns from BPI but it does point to a level of quality in the barrel and metal that is more than adequate for its intended usage.

BTW, I'm in the begining steps of trying to aquire a BPI inline to do similar testing with a magnum rated gun. It will probably be several months before I can camplete that test but hope to have it done by mid year if everything falls into place.
[/quote]

I hope that you are not using these rifles or selling them after torture testing. Over rated loads may in time cause failure that will not show up in the first high load and may actually fail at a much lower load some time in the future.  Fatigue testing is cumulative and the result may be ultimate failure at some point.

Offline dmurphy317

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2007, 05:04:01 PM »
I agree and that gun will never be removed from from my stable. The testing was not a one shot deal it included over a dozen shots with no measurable effects. One of these days I hope to find someone who can do the high tech testing to verify the metal condition, I just can't afford it at this point. I do still use that rifle for a light load plinker and it shoots very well for a $35 gun. I may go back at some point and do some short started testing but that will have to wait. My original intent was to test to destruction but I found it extreamly difficult to damage it in any visible way. Any gun can be damaged with a short started bullet or other obstruction, or if loaded with smokeless when not rated for it but when loaded correctly, all the knowledgeable gunsmiths and seasoned shooters I've talked to say it's very difficult to near impossible to "blow up" a muzzleloader short of a major flaw in the gun. Some tests have even showed it was difficult to blow up a piece of 1/2" metal conduit when shooting 100gr of BP and a PRB. I may have to try that one too just for fun.

Anyway, a lot of this hype about "spanish" muzzleloaders is just that, hype. Any company dumb enough in this, or any country to put out a product without testing to something above recomended loads would not last long enough to even get flack for it. Just because they will not acknowledge it to satisfy a complainer when the company has already seen the results of bad designs or whatever you want to call it, does not mean they are stupid enough not to verify the safety of their current products. They just choose not to make it public.
David

It's better to shoot for the sky and come a bit short than to shoot for the ground and hit every time. After all, the ground is just a place to start, the sky's the limit.

Offline alsaqr

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2007, 03:34:31 AM »
For awhile i was somewhat skeptical of Mr. Randy Wakeman and his claims about Spanish made muzzleloaders.  Then i started to go on line and i studied this for months.  In defense of Randy Wakeman, i must say that he has brought the lack of proper proofing to our attention. 

Just how a company like BPI can continure to sell guns that are being "proved" at 10,000 psi is beyond me.   Then they recommend loads that are are routinely  higher than 20,000 psi.  When questioned, they say:  "Would we sell you a defective gun?"  The answer to that question is:   "Yes, you have done it in the past."  This is duplicity in its rawest form. They cannot have it both ways without being challenged.   

As far as i know, only BPI (read CVA)  has ever had large numbers of muzzleloader  guns self destruct with recommended loads.   

Is Randy controversial?  Yes.  Is Randy flambouyant?   Maybe.  Is he an expert on muzzleloading rifles?   Yes. 

i own two BPI rifles.  They are severely restricted in their diets.  The old Staghorn is limited to 80 grains of granular Pyrodex and a 250 grain bullet.  The Magnum Hunter is restricted to 100 grains of  of granular Pyrodex and a 300 grain bullet.   

i have testified in court many times as an expert in my chosen field, Explosive Ordnance Disposal.   All of the things being said of Randy Wakeman have been said of me. 

Swampman

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #97 on: January 28, 2007, 03:41:21 PM »
"Is Randy controversial?  Yes.  Is Randy flambouyant?   Maybe.  Is he an expert on muzzleloading rifles?   Yes."

Do I like Randy....I sure do!

I sold my Spanish made gun.  It was extremely accurate, and dangerous to shoot IMO.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #98 on: January 28, 2007, 05:24:03 PM »
You guys are such suckers!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline UtahRob

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2007, 03:31:38 PM »
 Even though it not a muzzle Loader  this peace of junk company needs to be shut DOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;) ;)
 Dangerous peace of American mad crap !!!!!!!!!!! :D ;) :D :D


Swampman

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2007, 05:24:01 PM »
Stupid people blow up good guns.  Spanish made guns don't need stupid people.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2007, 05:30:21 PM »
Even though it not a muzzle Loader  this peace of junk company needs to be shut DOWN !!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;) ;)
 Dangerous peace of American mad crap !!!!!!!!!!! :D ;) :D :D



Get all your facts before you shoot your mouth off.  Copying and pasting a pic in a post without knowing what you are talking about does not make you look smart.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2007, 05:30:57 PM »
Stupid people blow up good guns.  Spanish made guns don't need stupid people.

I agree.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2007, 08:54:07 AM »
UtahRob, you are using that picture on a couple of different posts............most of us have read the story and know what happened.  It's got nothing to do with quality of the product.  It was an unsafe situation that could have been prevented if the owner of the gun had done a little research first.  The gunsmsith that did that barrel was an idiot too, if you ask me.  Search the web and you can find pics of model 70's blown up, Remington 700's, etc.  Never hear anything about those guns being junk.

Swampman, I agree too!!!

Offline elkstalkr

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #104 on: February 01, 2007, 11:03:03 AM »
The House of Elbar has never said that it is the maximum the barrel will withstand.

Yea, in fact they have never stated what the maximum is at all!  Thats whats scares me, they don't know. 

Offline sabotloader

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2007, 03:59:51 PM »
elkstalkr

Believe me they know....

Find one American company that will tell you what their max is?

Liability is to great, they will not tell you.  but, believe me the company knows....

Keep shooting muzzleloaders - they are a blast....

Offline slave

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2007, 04:02:55 PM »
We all should learn one thing form the this. It may not be the "why" but the "what" that matters the most. I hope the owner of WHAT ONCE WAS an Encore is ok. There are some things in life we just do not get a chance to do over!!!!!

Look at it this way. I do not think something must be made in the US and cost $800.00 to be safe. But how safe can anything be if it was shipped 1/2 way around the world and still cost less than a 16gal keg of beer. Think about it!!!!!!!!!

  
    
keep your powder dry !!!

Swampman

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2007, 04:06:38 PM »
A $150.00 NEF Sidekick is safe.  They are all proofed to over max specs before they leave the factory.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #108 on: February 02, 2007, 05:13:40 PM »
A $150.00 NEF Sidekick is safe.  They are all proofed to over max specs before they leave the factory.

Just how are they proofed. The gun may be rated for a certain load but, there is no proofing done in the US.
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2007, 07:12:40 PM »
A $150.00 NEF Sidekick is safe.  They are all proofed to over max specs before they leave the factory.

$150 nef  reminds me of that movie The christmas story " you'll shoot your eye out" only with  the sidekick, its "you'll lose an eye with all that blowback kid!"

Swampman

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2007, 11:06:11 PM »
"Just how are they proofed. The gun may be rated for a certain load but, there is no proofing done in the US."

The NEF factory tour video says they proof evey barrel that leaves the plant.  I don't think any other firearms manuf. does that.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #111 on: February 03, 2007, 01:53:15 AM »
"Just how are they proofed. The gun may be rated for a certain load but, there is no proofing done in the US."

The NEF factory tour video says they proof evey barrel that leaves the plant.  I don't think any other firearms manuf. does that.

Wrong answer. Let me give you a little education on proofing a firearm.  Firing a proof round through a gun goes not make it a proofed gun.

NO ONE PROOFS A GUN IN AMERICA. Case closed. Do you actually know what PROOFING is? NO ONE IN AMERICA PROOFS A GUN. A Proof Load fired in a firearm is NOT A PROOF. Proofing requires an independent government agency to fire loads in every firearm and then PROOF STAMP THE GUN. You name me just one American company that PROOF STAMPS its firearms?  Most European countries proof their firearms and you will see the verification of a PROOF on each barrel that passes that test.
 
 NO AMERICAN FIREARM MANUFACTURER PROOFS ITS GUNS. There is no proofing standard in America. Firing a single "proofing round" does not a "proof" make. Here's a website that might teach you something.  http://www.gunproof.co.uk/Proofing/proofing.html
 
 
SAAMI sets the standard for proof, SAAMI dictates the procedure, SAAMI allows manufacturers to proof guns in accordance with SAAMI standards in the United States.
 
SAAMI (http://www.saami.org/) is simply an ad hoc group of American gun makers who've outlined their industry wide standards as a method of self-policing the industry. They carry absolutely NO DISCIPLINARY AUTHORITY. They're much like the AMO is to archery. To compare this group to what proofing does is absolutely ludicrous.
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Swampman

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #112 on: February 03, 2007, 02:07:07 AM »
"Do you actually know what PROOFING is?"

I have for 40 years.

NEF proofs it's barrels.

Offline MSP Ret

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #113 on: February 03, 2007, 02:19:40 AM »
Your right Swampman and good for you for standing up for the truth. A little mark on the barrel does not mean it's "proofed". Whoever says that is more caught up in words than actions and results. Proof "marked" perhaps because the barrel is marked, but the "proof" is in the actual firing of a certain pressure (or over pressure) test load in a barrel to insure it's strength and safety. Self proclaimed experts, don't you just love them? They have read a book you know, and the words say this so it must be so. Actions, intent, results, and facts, those are what must be considered when trying to arrive at the truth....<><.... ::)
 

Some, like NEF, proof test each and every one of their barrels, some proof test and mark thier barrels, some may just mark their barrels. Do not confuse proof testing with marking.... ;)
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2007, 02:38:31 AM »
Swampman, MSP Ret
Even presented with facts you both think barrels are proofed in the USA?   ::)

I never claimed to be an expert MSP Ret, but I know fact's when I see them. If you want to look as if you don't know anything that is fine with me. A proofed round does not prove anything except it did not blow up on that round. A proof is when the gun is fired with numerous rounds of over pressure loads,  and then checked with NDI to check for stress cracks in the metal. So just who here is the "Self proclaimed experts"  I think you two are.

Just because NEF clams it proofs it's barrel, guy like you actually believe them. Savage makes the same clam.  What a joke. Call them up and asked them what there proof consists of. And they will tell you, it is just a proof round fired in a barrel. Not an actual proof.

Come on read the facts. Firing a proof round through a gun goes not make it a proofed gun. So you two "Self proclaimed experts"  as you put it. Show me that I am wrong.

MSP Ret, you can not put a proof mark on a berrel if it was not proofed. The mark as you put it, is proof it was proofed.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2007, 02:45:59 AM »
Here is NEF info, call them.
H&R 1871, LLC
60 Industrial Rowe
Gardner, MA 01440
Tel. 978-630-8220
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Swampman

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2007, 03:12:38 AM »
A proof round fired in a barrel is actual proof.


Offline kyelkhunter3006

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2007, 05:44:28 AM »
In my understanding of proofing a gun, it's the argument that Redhawk makes.  It's done by a government agency to standards set by the government.  Yes, they are called Proof Houses.  It's a standard procedure in Europe and has been for centuries.  I don't know of any testing done by our goverment agencys on any firearms in the U.S.  Or any standards set by the government for independent testing procedures. 

Proofing involves every single weapon.......not just a test sample of guns or gun parts.  It's the governments way of saying, "Yes, we've tested this individual item and it is safe for it's intended use."  Then if it fails under normal use, it's not only the owner or the maker who is at fault, the government testing is called to the front as well. 

Everyone likes to preach the CVA thing.  Well, Ebar proofs the guns to 10,000 PSI.  They say the gun is safe to that pressure.  They don't say "yes, 10,000 is what it's rated, but you shoot 25,000 PSI loads and not worry about it."  To me, that tells me not to use loads known to generate more than 10,000 PSI in that gun, ie 150 grains of any powder and projectile.  Once that gun hits the U.S. and BPI tells you to use higher pressure loads, the liability is on yourself and BPI. That is not normal use as rated by Ebar, the proof house.  BPI doesn't make the gun, they just market it in the U.S.  Do you want to listen to the people that sell the gun or the people that tested it?

What all of the U.S. factories do is test fire a gun, and that's what every one of them that advertises it calls it.  It's just checking for proper function of the weapon and firing of the charged load.  Some of them may at times use an overcharged load to check Q/C, but 99% of them use either Federal or Hornady ammo to test fire.  I would imagine that Remington and Winchester use thier own ammo.  Why use handloads to test a gun when most guns shoot factory ammo anyway?

What most companies DO perform is destructive tests on their products, to see just how much stress that they can take.  But it's not on the barrels, it's on the actions.  A barrel is just a way to relieve the pressure that builds up to in order to force the projectile out.  If the barrel is blocked, the pressure can't be released properly.  They will plug the barrel just ahead of the chamber to test the strength of the action.  In most actions, if the receiver holds, the barrel isn't going to rupture.  And then it's just a certain amount of pieces, say 5 guns or 50 guns, and they study what happened and then incorporate it into the manufacturing process. 

If you think that Douglas, Shilen, Hart, and the U.S. factory gun companies proof test every barrel that they make, you're nuts.  Then they would all be selling pre-chambered and threaded barrels instead of barrel blanks.  If it's not on an action, it isn't a barrel, it's just a piece of pipe. The companies buy barrel steel that meets an industry standard (not a governmental one) for strength and pressure.  They don't stress test each one to see if it's going to fail.  Every company can tell you that they do sell bad barrels on occasion. One that's too hard, or too soft, or whatever. 

Proofing by the government is a way to take that out of the equation.  Proofing involves the entire weapon as a unit, not just the action or the barrel.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2007, 06:00:33 AM »
A proof round fired in a barrel is actual proof.




I perfect example of why the Internet is not such a good place to get information if bad information is passed. In this day and age of modern technology, you think people would know how to pass on information that was correct.

Please someone remind me if I ever need information that I don't ask Swampman or MSP Ret.

Tell me what US gun maker actually proof tests and marks there barrel according to Proofing a barrel. I will tell you, NONE.  Not one company is going to test fire every barrel and then have it magna fluxed to check for cracks and then sold, it can't be done on mass produced guns and is not done in the USA. Again a proof round does not make a proofed barrel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Proof_House
The Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House was established in 1813 by an act of Parliament at the request - and expense - of the then prosperous Birmingham Gun Trade. Its remit was to provide a testing and certification service for firearms in order to prove their quality of construction, particularly in terms of the resistance of barrels to explosion under firing conditions. Such testing prior to sale or transfer of firearms is made mandatory by the Gun Barrel Proof Acts 1868-1989, which make it an offence to sell, offer for sale, transfer, export or pawn an unproofed firearm, with certain exceptions for military organisations.

The Proof House still exists today, largely unchanged in both purpose and construction, although it offers a wider range of services including ammunition testing and firearm accident investigation.

The Proof process is that of testing a firearm for integrity using a severely overcharged cartridge, or Proof load which is fired through the gun in an armoured testing chamber. This exposes it to pressures far beyond what it would experience in normal service. It is awarded a stamped Proof Mark if it survives without either being destroyed or suffering damage from the proof load. Larger guns were tested at a shooting range in Bordesley along a railway viaduct however, the expansion of the city centre resulted in the closure of the shooting range.

Proof may be rendered invalid if the firearm is damaged or modified significantly; at this point it is described as "out of proof" and must be re-proofed before it can be sold or transferred.

Note that the correct term for a satisfactorily tested firearm is Proofed, and not Proven.

Penalties for noncompliance with proof laws are severe; a fine of £5000 (approx $9000 US) may be levied for selling an unproofed or out-of proof firearm, more if a number of firearms are involved in a transaction. Tampering with, or forging a proof mark is regarded as even more serious.

The Proof House is located in Banbury Street, Birmingham, England. It contains a museum of arms and ammunition, and can be visited subject to prior arrangement. See also Birmingham Gun Quarter.

Proof charge (Firearms), a charge of powder and ball,
      greater than the service charge, fired in an arm, as a gun
      or cannon, to test its strength.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_mark

A proof test is a test wherein a deliberately overpressure round is fired from a firearm in order to verify that the firearm is not defective and will not explode on firing. The firearm is inspected after the test, and if it is found to be in sound condition, then it is marked with a Proof Mark to indicate that is has been proofed (not proven). In many jurisdictions a proof test and valid proof mark are required for the sale of firearms.

A proof round is an ammunition assembly designed to be used in proof testing; this can use a fixed cartridge, a semi-fixed cartridge, or separately loaded projectile, charge and primer. A proof shot is a special projectile used in a proof round or other projectile weapons, EM guns for example. Small arms proof rounds resemble normal cartridges, though they will typically bear special markings to prevent them from being confused for standard cartridges. Large calibre arms, such as artillery, will in general use an inert solid projectile (the proof shot); although water, sand or iron (powder) filled versions can be found for testing recoil systems.

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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Dangerous muzzleloaders
« Reply #119 on: February 03, 2007, 06:12:30 AM »
kyelkhunter3006,

Thank you,  ;D it is always nice to know there are other's out there in cyber space that understand.  If I was wrong, and I am not, I would be willing to admit it and learn something, but to ignore facts as others have is not cutting it. To make a blunt statement like (A proof round fired in a barrel is actual proof.) is not the final answer.  That is like when you father said, "because I say so." 

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