Why Alum Foil? Why not silk

[CaptTHighbiter]

New to cannoneering, but have several cannon I have collected and fired sporadically ( blanks only)

Why aluminum foil? especially when I read some of the foil never burns up and holds un-burned powder?  Why not silk or similar material, that was used say round 1750?  

 I have been dumping the powder into the barrel and tamping with a ram rod ( note one shot per hour would be a LOT for me). ANy problems with this?

Thanks a great deal, it pays to ask the greybeards! LOL

[CU_Cannon]

There are several reasons for using foil over silk.  The first is availability.  You can get aluminum foil anywhere.  Another thing that aluminum offers is the ability to dissipate static charge.  Plastics and other materials can build up a static charge which could potentially be dangerous.  Look at the Hindenburg for example.  In the event that there are burning embers in the barrel the foil acts as a slight barrier between the ember and the powder.  Lastly; cost.  IÂ’m not sure what the going rate for silk is but IÂ’m sure it is more than foil.  

True the foil does not burn up but it is easily removed with a worm.  Also proper rate of fire and wet sponging limits the possibility of any burning embers or unburned powder.  

Welcome to the board.

[Cat Whisperer]

Welcome, Cpt High -

Silk works.  Not for me, because I don't have any.  

At least the ends of the powder bags in 155's are silk.  The one wherein there is a thin layer of blackpowder (to catch the sparks from the priming device) is colored red.

Aluminum is available and has good electrical characteristics when it comes to grounding out static electricity.

[Rickk]

I have some "new condition" WWII Japanese silk powder bags in my collection that were picked up off Iwo Jima a couple days after the US took the island, so I know that they have been used for such purpose.

Isn't silk expensive?

[Double D]

I think it is highly unlikely that any unburned powder will be retained in a properly made foil cartridge after firing.

Making Cannon Cartridges  

Of course the foil is wormed out  between shots while the vent  is thumbed  to reduce the effect of fanning any lingering embers.

[CaptTHighbiter]

Well one problem for me is, I have 4 cannon:

1-7/8" bore
1-1/2" bore
1-5/16 bore
7/8" bore

And no one makes worms, at leat that I can find.... Sources for worms gladly accepted!

I have been using a commercial grade heavy brass tube brushes to clean between rounds. Those are avaialble from any good industrial supply house.

 Still cant get the glowing ember hidden in a fold of un burnt aluminum outa my head...

[GGaskill]

Still cant get the glowing ember hidden in a fold of un burnt aluminum outa my head...

That's why we worm and damp sponge.

[Artilleryman]

The problem with cloth powder bags is that they will continue to burn after the powder has burned.  This becomes more of a problem if #1 uses too wet a sponge leaving some water in the barrel (I have seen this.) which soaks into the cloth allowing it to smolder longer.  

We worm until we pull the remants of the powder bag, wet sponge, and dry sponge.  We do not rush any of the procedures, it's not worth it.  

I can't see taking the time to make cloth powder bags when aluminum foil is so much easier.  Also I would think that cloth bags would allow moisture into the powder which affects accuracy.

[CU_Cannon]

I think I remember hearing that powder can be forced between the layers of foil when the charge is rammed.  In any case proper loading techniques are important for safety.  

Someone here made a worm out of a coil spring cut in half and fixed to a dowel.  IÂ’m not sure who made the post.  Someone will have to help me on that.  I canÂ’t see why something like that wouldnÂ’t work for you.

[Double D]

 Still cant get the glowing ember hidden in a fold of un burnt aluminum outa my head...

Understandable to a point.

But you have to ask yourself if the charge went off how would there be unburned powder in a fold of aluminum left in the bore if you made a proper cartridge?

If there was a danger of unburned powder particles left in a fold of aluminum why would the State Massachusetts mandate aluminum foil cartridges in their cannon shooting law.

If there was a danger of unburned powder in a fold why would two  National Cannon shooting groups mandate in their safety regulations aluminum foil cartridges.

How many times have you found unburned particles in your foil cartridge after you wormed it out?

What would it matter if there were unburned particles of powder left in the fold if you wormed it out and swabbed you bore before loading the next charge.

Which cartridge is most likely to ignite if it was to encounter a smoldering ember that had not been swabbed out of the bore after firing, silk or aluminum.

And my most favorite of all which is more likely to remain in the e bore as a smoldering ember a foil cartridge or a silk bag.

I know what you mean about worm.  But they are out there, you just have to look around.  ItÂ’s something I wish our Sponsors would consider making.  What I have been using is a 58 caliber muzzle loading rifle worm. Does the job.


Safe Loads and Cannon plans[/color]

[Rickk]

CaptTHighbiter, The only source I have ever seen for worms is a 2 inch worm from Dixie Gun works. I have one, and I showed it to a guy I work with who does blacksmith work on the side. He thinks he can make them in sizes other than 2 inch for a price that is in the same ballpark as Dixie Gun Works.

So, if you want to try working something out with him, his name is Jonathan Bernard, and his e-mail address is jonbernard@yahoo.com

[Cpt Ed]

And no one makes worms, at leat that I can find.... Sources for worms gladly accepted! ...

Schneider Cannons,
listed on "Sticky: Where to find Blackpowder Cannons and shooting supplies",

Mr. Schneider made for me an excellent Steel Worm mounted on a wood shaft and a special size ball mold out of steel, for my 1.5" bore Half scale Parrott.

I can recommend his fine quality.

[GGaskill]

Someone here made a worm out of a coil spring cut in half and fixed to a dowel. I’m not sure who made the post. Someone will have to help me on that. I can’t see why something like that wouldn't work for you.

Coil spring worm thread.

[Tropico]

I have to Agree on all of Double D's arguements for the foil. I have been using the foil for about 1 year now., because it is better than my other method and also very fast., I sit up at night making pre-loads *Wicked-Wicked-Grin*  I have never had a problem with a left over burning ember., and on the topic of worming ?  Also you can easlily tell which end goes in first : Smooth to breach., folded crumpled toward muzzle.

1. For the 1" bores...., I use a wooden dowel a little smaller than my bore., I then tear a strip of foil .,then 1/2 its length.  I put the butt of the dowel into the middle of the foil., and bend the foil up on both sides making a cup., then fill with the desired amount of BP then carefully press down the foil on the top.  You end up with a nice neat little cylinder of powder., and the foil is one layer thick at the breach end and does not have these folds to get embers in., All of the foil blasts out except this thin back.

2. Worming., 1 of my 1" bore cannons has the vent hole drilled clean into the bore however the drill bit literally rubbed the back of the bore a trace.   What we have found out is this little 1"incher is doing is tearing the foil at its most rear with the vent pik and flashing there ., and Boom !!! Nothing to worm!., consistantly blowing everything ., every every time!!! I love it., the other cannons we have are 1/4" from the barrel end and we are having to worm each shot.

We are currently having 4 more Cannons built with 1.5 bores for our ship and they will be drilled the same. ALL THE WAY TO THE BACK OF THE BORE it opens the one layer of foil from top too bottom of the bore. nice !
You end up with an ignition the length of the bores diameter., We use a brass pik filed at an angle so when it pierces the foil., if you spin the pik., it tears a good 1/8 hole.

[reddog]

I use A brass shotgun brush to worm the bore, even if it's a little small I just swish it around a bit and I get all the foil out. Then wet swab, dry swab, ready for the next shot.

[Cat Whisperer]

I just take a sponge, reach in and wipe it all out.  But then the bore is 4.55" ID and only about 12" deep.  

It does have the disadvantage though of one hand and forearm smelling of sulpher!

[ibfestus]

RE: "If there was a danger of unburned powder particles left in a fold of aluminum why would the State Massachusetts mandate aluminum foil cartridges in their cannon shooting law. "

If there is no danger of an accidental discharge, why would tha State of ILLinois mandate that I carry my bow in a case?

If there is no danger of a fire in my unpowered aluminum jon-boat, why does the State of Illinois mandate that I carry a fire extinguisher?

To me just the fact that the "State" mandates something doesn't indicate that it is either wise or prudent.  Otherwise, I agree that aluminum foil is superior to the silk used in the days of yore for the stated purpose.  I assure you that had our forefathers had aluminum foil... they would have used it even if the State disagreed.

[Double D]

RE: "If there was a danger of unburned powder particles left in a fold of aluminum why would the State Massachusetts mandate aluminum foil cartridges in their cannon shooting law. "
...To me just the fact that the "State" mandates something doesn't indicate that it is either wise or prudent.  Otherwise.I agree that aluminum foil is superior to the silk used in the days of yore for the stated purpose...

Lets me get this straight Massachusetts made a law that you agree with.

But you don't think that this law is a good example because states don't always get things right or prudent.

What about this law is not right or prudent?  The fact the state made it?

Huh??!!

[GGaskill]

What about this law is not right or prudent?

Nothing, but you are using the fact that it is a state law as the justification for following the procedure.

He is saying that just because it is a law does not confer intelligence or correctness on it.

It a good thing to do because aluminum foil will not leave a smoldering remnant in the bore after firing, not because the Socialist Republic of Massachusetts says to do it.

[Cat Whisperer]

While I am of the oppinion that the common poverty of Taxachusettes has come up with some repressive legislation in it's time (having seen a kid put away for a year for having a BB gun a few feet off his property on the first day of the enactment of the law) I am quite respectful of their power and of the responsibility of folks such as I to act in a prudent and lawfull manner.  AND to work at changing that legislation within the law.  The Boston Tea Party not withstanding.

[Double D]

What!!! We can't use a law as an example because some where there might be a law we don't understand or agree with even if this one a good one.

Using that law alone as sole justification might be something to question.

Just go back and read my post again you will see that MA laws  was just one of a laundry list of items I cited as justification.  I did not use it as sole justification. The list confirms and supports my point.

The two National Cannon shooting organizations whose own rules copy that law, are they wrong or imprudent because the rule they use is the same as that law. I would give them a bunch more credability than a State  Legislature  on the topic.

There must be a reason those three agree.  Do you know the history of that law? Do you know who wrote that law?  Artillerymen did! There couldn't be a better law to cite as an example.

Could it be that  MA got it right this one time.

And as far using the Ma state law as sole justification it is all that is needed in MA.

[Tropico]

Socialist Republic of Massachusetts

 :-D  :-D  :-D

Taxachusettes

 :-D  :-D  :-D

I am laughing reading this., its been a pretty good and interesting thread.
Myself I have nothing against Massachusetts., my only one comment even close to that is I think its wrong for a man to live off public money all of his life. "Career Politition"  Basically a welfare case at lawyers fee rates. A Senator. A person who has become a permanent fixture is probably in it for himself dontcha think?..,Scandolous. Not all like a founding father who served then went back to his life.

Thats another story., anyway., whatever a state passes for law or doesnt the thread starts., "Why is Foil Better than Silk" ?  Well Foil is cheaper., doesnt leave burning embers ., Its more readily available. makes for fast clean easy to make powder packets.,isnt a static electric problem., there are lots of good reasons to use Foil..., Its Great.

If your not doing it., try it., learn to make a packet., be careful., read a bit and probably youll be hooked on making your own foil powder cartridges too. It makes my life easier in the field. I am sold on it.

[Cat Whisperer]

Let me add to my previous post.  I don't think the law in question is wrong.  Further, when it comes to laws regarding safety, there is generally a long process by reputable organizations or groups authoring the details of the law.

[ibfestus]

The point is that if the Mass. law mandated paper instead of foil, lots of people would be out there blowing themselves up.  Stupid laws abound in this country.  

A few years ago I got a ticket in Illinois.   Seems I had sold a hunting bow to a friend in Jonesboro, Il.  I tossed it in my back seat and was taking it to him.  I had no arrows or accessories with me but when I went through a police sobriety check point they cited me because the bow wasn't cased.  

In your example, the State law was the first (foremost?) reason listed as to why we should use the foil.  I would not have bought this up had you added as an afterthought: "Oh by the way it is also a State Statute..."

Perhaps I am picking a very small nit but it has been my experience that there are those out there that believe there should be a law covering eveything humans do.  In my eyes, that is a red flag.

[Cat Whisperer]

Good points.

Two things that are inseparable - rights and responsibilities.

I think many laws have gone too far in restricting rights (or privileges) in the name of 'protection' because SOME folks have been irresponsible.

It's like trying to legislate morals.

As you've implied, it's prudent to focus on the principles of good (safe) practices rather than the mere existance of the law.  That keeps you safe.  Breaking the law may not be unsave but has it's rewards too.

[Double D]

The point is that if the Mass. law mandated paper instead of foil, lots of people would be out there blowing themselves up.  Stupid laws abound in this country.  

In your example, the State law was the first (foremost?) reason listed as to why we should use the foil.  I would not have bought this up had you added as an afterthought: "Oh by the way it is also a State Statute..."

Perhaps I am picking a very small nit but it has been my experience that there are those out there that believe there should be a law covering eveything humans do.  In my eyes, that is a red flag.

The point of this thread is why not use silk instead of tin foil. It's not about good laws or bad laws.  

Post some reasons of your own to support either point why silk is better than tin foil or why tin foil is better than silk.  Anything else is just off topic.

If you can find some fault in the MA law please point out what is wrong with it.  Why does the fact that MA say use tin foil make silk the better?

What ifs don't apply, MA didn't make a law that says use paper.

And nobody said we need a law.  

So which is better silk or tinfoil?

[Artilleryman]

I would like to know what reference gave silk as a material for cartridge bags.  I was under the impression that they were made of flannel or wool.

[GGaskill]

I think smokeless bag guns use silk powder bags versus the flannel ones used in black powder artillery.

[Cat Whisperer]

I would like to know what reference gave silk as a material for cartridge bags.  I was under the impression that they were made of flannel or wool.

Three places that I'm aware of (personally): one, from experience with 155mm Howitzers in the Army; two, mention of it touring a battleship in N.C. and reference to it a few years back when the 16" gun of the destroyer (Iowa?) was damaged a few years back.

[Artilleryman]

I quess my mindset is in the 19th century.