Author Topic: Semi-Auto DAO shooting low  (Read 733 times)

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Offline SoftPoint

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« on: April 07, 2006, 02:37:21 PM »
I have a d.a.o. semi-auto pistol that I am constanly shooting low when I'm shooting offhand. Exactly what grip or trigger pull problem cases you to shoot low? I'm 3 inches low at 7 yards, 6 inches low at 15 yards. The groups are tight. It has fixed sights. It shoots on target when benchrested.

Offline Patriot_1776

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2006, 03:50:00 PM »
What brand of pistol is it?  Do you happen to know approximately how many pounds of trigger pull there is?  The low grouping could be caused by excessive pressure when squeezing the trigger.  When the sear releases, it might be causing the pistol to jerk downward.  Does it shoot that low fairly consistantly?

Another possibility is slight flinching.  Do you have any form of target panic or apprehensiveness of the recoil?  When shooting from a rest, the pistol is more immobile than when shooting offhand (as well as providing a more "secure" feeling when shooting the pistol), and flinching problems are sometimes less prone to occur.  When pulling the trigger, do you use the tip or first joint?  Putting a lot of "meat" on the trigger can cause you to unknowingly pull the gun down as you pull.  When using the tip/first joint of your finger, it helps pull the trigger straight back. These are just a few suggestions in an effort to help pinpoint the cause; please don't feel they are directed personally in any way.  8)

:D
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Offline SoftPoint

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2006, 08:39:44 PM »
Patriot, I know the problem is the shooter. It's a Taurus Millenium Pro 9mm, and it has a very long trigger pull. I sent it back to taurus because I thought the gun was the problem, and they sent it back promptly with a 15 yard target that had a 1.5" group right in the center with a 6 o'clock hold. It shoots low consistently. offhand. I was pulling the trigger with the first joint. Do you recommend using the finger pad? I also do feel that I am doing some flinching. I appreciate any advice you or anyone else has to help me out of this dilemma.

Offline williamlayton

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2006, 12:28:26 AM »
Shooting is much akin to a golf swing. So many things can go wrong and one can develope incorrect habits so very easily. it sometimes takes the skill of a teacher to detect, and help correct, these habits.
I had developed a flinch from indoor shooting. It was caused by poor lighting and very poor accoustics. When I moved outdoors these things went away---well too be replaced with other errors.
I tend to grip with the right hand too much, and too hard. Like a golf swing, grip pressure should be enough but not a choking grip. the tendency is to believe, in both golf and shooting, that the club/gun is going too come loose. It rarely does and in both the proper pressuse is applied with the off hand, in my case the left, as I am right handed, and is only enough to hold.
Well, that's my story and I am sticking too it.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline PaulS

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Re: Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2006, 07:02:49 PM »
Quote from: SoftPoint
I have a d.a.o. semi-auto pistol that I am constanly shooting low when I'm shooting offhand. Exactly what grip or trigger pull problem cases you to shoot low? I'm 3 inches low at 7 yards, 6 inches low at 15 yards. The groups are tight. It has fixed sights. It shoots on target when benchrested.


Softpoint,

Squeezing the grip with the trigger decreases the rise on the muzzle - that will cause your point of impact to be low. Relax your grip a little and squeeze the trigger - not your whole hand and the shots will move up on the target. If you can't do that then use a heavier, slower, bullet. That will raise you point of impact too. If all else fails you can file the top of the front sight down a little at a time to move your POI up.
PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline SoftPoint

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 04:52:55 AM »
PaulS: You are the second person to tell me that a heavier, slower bullet will raise up my point of impact. How is this possible? It seems to defy the law of physics. I am not doubting you, I just need to understand it. Thanks in advance.

Offline Patriot_1776

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2006, 05:36:25 AM »
Softpoint,

Since you are using your first joint, I would say that is likely not a problem.  As long as you don't have too much finger on your trigger, that should eliminate pulling the gun down too much.  Another exercise you could do to help cure your flinching is to practice dry firing in your living room, or elsewhere, with a certain design on the wall or an imaginary target (if this is agreeable to you.)  But try and get some practice in by just pulling the trigger and getting used to the feel.  I must say this, just to make sure:  Make sure it is empty! I always stress that when doing this!!  Also never use a gun with a loaded mag in it while pulling the trigger; it is just another liability.  Snap caps come in handy here when you don't want the pin to fall on an empty chamber.  

When you see what your sights do without really shooting the gun, it will help you see if you need more practice. Your sights should move enough during practice that you will see the need if it is there.  I usually do that myself before a pistol shoot (practical pistol, not genuine competition) to help me with my sight picture, drawing, and trigger control.  All you have to do is just pull the trigger back, not thinking of either the gun going off or the sear releasing, but concentrating only on your target and your sights until it goes off.  If you concentrate on the target and sight alignment more than on the gun going off, it will help considerably to eliminate any flinching.  They say accurate shooting is more mental than physical; I went through the same tough road, so don't feel bad about it.  In fact, I do regress from time to time, so I'm not really out of it yet. :shock:

I think the heavier bullet/higher point of impact has to do with more muzzle jump because of the recoil.  I can understand the principle better from my experience yesterday between shooting off a bench, and shooting off hand.  I was sighting in my 45 ACP at 25 yds. with a new adjustable sight I had put on.  While benched, it worked amazingly well; I could keep five shots within a 5" circle (this is without accurate load development; just a simple work-up) dead center.  Once I shot it offhand, it was shooting at least a foot higher!  This was simply because of the effects of recoil.  Off the bench it didn't jump nearly as high, whereas shooting offhand, the gun was free enough to jump enough before the bullet left the barrel.  That is all it takes to move the point of impact.  There was an immense difference, and I think that is the point PaulS was making.  

These are some tips I use that helped me with my shooting habits and form. I hope this helps you out further, and if any more questions remain, feel free to ask them.

:D
-Patriot
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Offline PaulS

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2006, 09:45:02 PM »
Quote from: SoftPoint
PaulS: You are the second person to tell me that a heavier, slower bullet will raise up my point of impact. How is this possible? It seems to defy the law of physics. I am not doubting you, I just need to understand it. Thanks in advance.


SoftPoint,

The heavier bullet is slower - it stays in the barrel longer
The heavier bullet also recoils more so the muzzle raises faster
The bullet is in the barrel as it raises under recoil and is actually shot with the gun in a more "barrel up" position so it hits the target higher than the faster lighter bullet.
If your gun was clamped in an unmoveable jig then the slower bullet would hit lower but your hand and arm move easily with the gun in its recoil. When you use physics you need to understand the whole process if you want to understand why it does what it does.
Its OK - I found out the same way you did but I was shooting an '06 and asked the range officer. We pass on what we learn - and now its your turn.
PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline SoftPoint

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 02:07:57 AM »
I went to the range yesterday with one of my friends who is an experienced handgun shooter, I let him shoot it offhand and he put all shots in a 1 inch circle, at point of aim, at 10 yards, using a 6 o'clock hold. So I know the problem is me. I guess I just need practice.

Offline bscman

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Semi-Auto DAO shooting low
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2006, 07:30:19 AM »
Lets address how you are sqeezing the trigger. because I can't watch, i'll just throw a few things out there--please dont take any offense if they sound stupid, or if you are already doing them!

 Put the the middle of that last third of your finger on the trigger--between the very end, and the first joint. Leave it there, don't take your finger off as the trigger resets.

When you are sqeezing the trigger on a DAO, remember three quarter, one quarter. When you're on target, pull the first three quarters of the trigger--get the long heave pull out of the way. You don't necessarily want to stop at three quarter, but slow down, make sure your sights are still on make, and slowly finish the the last 1 quarter. If you just try and jerk the whole long, heavy pull you will tend to shoot low.

The same is true if you are anticipating the shot. Practice taking slow, aimed shots and try to SURPRISE yourself on the last quarter of trigger by going very slow so it goes "BANG" before you even have time to flinch. Also, as recommended earlier, dry firing is a big help with something like this...HOWEVER, i recommend you use snap caps for a few reasons.
1. Less likely to damage the gun
2. Assures you've checked the gun/magazines for live ammo.
3. Loading orange dummy rounds make you mentally aware this is "practice"

You don't want to get in the habit of just dry firing your gun anywhere...do it somewhere safe, and in the same place every time...