Author Topic: single action for woods defense (Read 4916 times)

mikedb · « **on:** April 10, 2006, 04:22:36 AM »

I really like the 45 colt cartridge. I also like single actions for plinking and hunting. My question is would you feel handicapped with a ruger Blackhawk in 45 colt for woods protection vs a handgun say in 44 mag that is double action? I am leaning towards it should not be that big of a handicap becasue you will most likely only get one shot only due to surprise of an animal attack, the cartidge has great potential when handloaded, and it weigths much less than a Ruger 44 Redhawk. BTW I am considering the Blackhawk with a 4 5/8 in barrel for ease of carry. lessda gun has great ballisticeexrtr bdi

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2006, 04:46:18 AM »

Mr Mikedb: There have been an awful lot of threads on this subject. It's a heated debate that "I" do not wish to get into again.

I will just say that it depends on where you are walking in the woods and what you are protecting yourself from. In my very very humble opinion, if your talking about walking around in somewhere other than Griz country. The 45 Colt or 44 mag caliber is all you need. Either one will do just about anything you need them to do (read with proper bullets).

The choice between double or single action is (in my opinion again) a personnal preferance thing. Some like the double action for quicker reloads or being able to get a shot off without having to cock the hammer. I personally would rather have the single action. Barrel length: If double action is your pick, I would go with a 4 inch barrel. If you go with the single action, You can't beat the 4 5/8 barrel on the blackhawk for handy easy carry. Good luck.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2006, 04:48:54 AM »

For got one thing: When I was saying the 45 Colt was fine. I did mean in a modern gun capable of heavier loads (read Ruger or some of the others).

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2006, 04:57:01 AM »

The only thing I will add to this is, double action would be my choice.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:08:46 AM »

I wont touch this post :-D

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:26:31 AM »

It is a question about which too many people have too many opinions most of which have never been in a self defense situation of the sort asked about so are only offering opinions based on what? Beats me.

I can offer no more than that as I've never been there either. But the .45 Colt loaded properly in a strong revolver like the Ruger is as powerful as the .44 Magnum so to respond to that part of the question yes it's as powerful and effective. Perhaps more so.

Single vs. DA? I'm more comfortable with DA guns but fire them SA almost exclusively. Best guess it wouldn't matter.

I honestly have no first hand personal experience in defending myself against wild critters bent on harming me to help more. I could offer only opinions and ya know what they say those are like don't ya?

riddleofsteel · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:28:06 AM »

I think you may be a good deal safer in the woods than you think.

However, load some 300 grain hardcast slugs over as much 110 as is allowed and no gun that does not come with a laynard will do you much more good.

Also take some time and do some back reading on this board. Look under "Bears."

LOL

:twisted:

http://yerfrockethellhound.com/stagblackhawks.BMP

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2006, 06:43:40 AM »

riddleofsteel wrote: "Also take some time and do some back reading on this board. Look under "Bears." LOL

Bears! I seem to remember something about that!!! :-D :-D

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:48:11 AM »

Mikedb,
Woods carry for repelling animal attacks is a great justification for buying a new Ruger! I, in fact, just used that one on the wife which allowed me to get a stainless Vaquero in .45Colt I found on clearance. The wife is pretty smart so I had to add how our son(14months old) would be a tempting morsel for anything bigger than a chipmunk. :eek:
You probably have a greater chance of animal attack when walking around the neighborhood(dogs) than you do when hiking out West... Hmmm....should I tell my wife I know need a "dog gun" to protect the son? Ya, wouldn't a .32 H&R Mag Single Six be just about right?!!! :-D

Jim

corbanzo · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2006, 08:18:17 PM »

Heck yeah, you would be safe. People always talk about double action fast... whatever, doesnt really matter. I usually carry DA revolvers for protection, but when I am practicing my draws (love that quick draw) I always pull the hammer back while pushing the gun forward directly after pulling it out of the holster, so it's ready quick when its pointed. Havent had a problem yet. It is very fast, and also for me, more accurate. Many of my friends carry SBH's for woods protection, and are perfectly happy with them. All you have to do is know how to shoot it, and you'll be just fine.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2006, 10:52:39 PM »

For woods protection all you need is pepper spray and little silver bells.................Oh, never mind!! :grin:

mparks · « **Reply #11 on:** April 11, 2006, 03:42:26 AM »

I think your setup will have you covered for the big bucks of Washtenaw County. If you venture into Livingston or Jackson, I don't know.

mikedb · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2006, 04:32:20 AM »

I actually live in Livingston County....Brighton

jimster · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2006, 04:58:04 AM »

I think 45 colt in a blackhawk is perfect. I had lots of power using W296 ball powder in Ruger single actions with heavy cast bullets.
If your in a place where there are great big bears, have a big rifle with you, other than that, you will not have any problems with anything else.

Castaway · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2006, 06:34:54 AM »

I guess that if I was so concerned with that much of a difference , I wouldn't go in the woods to begin with. Be thankful you aren't carrying a muzzle loader.

mparks · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2006, 06:58:04 AM »

Quote from: mikedb

I actually live in Livingston County....Brighton

I guess I need to fill out my location info. I used to live in Gregory but I'm in Swartz Creek now.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2006, 08:32:13 AM »

For those who purport to "not want to enter into this discussion anymore" because any handgun is not a bear stopper so why discuss it I suggest they need to take a look at the Accurate Reloading forum/Hunting/Big Game/Who said bears aren't dangerous? thread and pictures.

My input is this; a firearm of some sort needs to be carried when you are in the woods. In the lower 48 in most instances this is for protection from two legged dangerous animals. They are out there in increasing numbers. As a previous LEO in a rural NE Oregon I investigated plenty of person against person crimes committed in the great outdoors. Many of these were committed by dirtbags cruising around the logging roads looking for "easy prey". Dirtbags have 4WDs and SUVs too you know. Also there is an ever increasing chance of encounters with drug growers and producers (Meth labs) if you get off the beaten track.

As for defense against attacking animals; any gun is better than no gun. The problem is most who carry a handgun will not shoot soon enough. Attacking animals can be deterred ("turned" so to speak) by firing in front of them or by their head, particularly bears and cats if you fire before they decide to make that final charge to get you. Also a couple good shots to the vitals may not stop them from reaching you but it may kill them before they kill you. The pictures in the thread show the results of a bear attack and one who survived the attack. Also the bear was killed. It doesn't say with what though but obviously a firearm of some sort. There are many other reported bear/cat attacks that have been thwarted by the use of a handgun. Preventing personal injury is not always the case but they survived. You can still fight back and survive/win if you have a firearm. If you don't have a firearm then like the movie add says, "Prey for the hunter".

I have had three confrontational incidents with large sow black bears with cubs. I was not hunting bears in any case. I was chased by one for about 50 yards and she would have caught me had I not got on one side of my jeep (no top on, windshield down - not much of an obstacle but it momentarily stopped her) and fired two shots just past her head. She turned back, went back up the hill and slapped the cubs around until they bounded back into the trees out of the clearcut. The second incident was when I was investigating a vandalism of a cabin in the woods. I walked around the corner of the cabin looking down at the ground for evidence and came nose to nose with a cub. Mama was about 25-30 yards off to the side. I drew my M1911 as I was backing up (no more running from them for me - I'll stand and fight) and put two shots into the ground in front of her. She had taken a very aggressive posture and took a couple steps toward me. Of course at the shots the cub skedaddled back to her so she mostly just huffed and puffed for a minute and then took off with the cubs. The third time was when I was fishing in the high mountains. I was sitting on a small log jam jutting out into the fast moving icy cold river fishing when a sow and one cub came out of the brush onto the sand bar about 15 yards away. We were in a stare down with me having no where to go except into the river. I was packing a Ruger NM .357 4 5/8" so before she made up her mind I made up mine. I drew the Ruger and fired one shot by her head and immediately cocked the revolver (two hand hold, slip hammer technique) intending the next one to go into her nose if necessary. I have gone nose to nose with a grizz in Alaska but I had an '06 with me then. I backed out of that one and the grizz didn't seem overly aggressive. I have also had one black bear boar stand up, snap at and swat the front of my GMC pick up when I caught him crossing a road one night. He was very aggressive and wanted to fight.

I totally disagree with those who say no handgun will stop a bear so there's no need to carry one. The reason is carrying a rifle or shotgun is not always practical as is the usual suggested alternative by these well meaning if not misguided comments. I have squirted enough pissed off animals with pepper spray to have little faith in that. No, a Handgun may not "stop" (in the classic drop dead at your feet scenario) a bear charge but if you use it soon enough to turn or dissuade the bear/cat or. Worst case if you are down you can shove it into fur and pull the trigger it more than likely will keep you from becoming bear s**t in the woods (they do do that you know). The alternative is to roll up into the fetal position and "hope" for the best. I do not wish to use that alternative.

When In the woods or on the streets, any gun is better than no gun for defense against predatory animals, four or two legged! If mikedb wants to carry his RBH .45 I say more power to him.

Larry Gibson

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2006, 11:19:12 AM »

Interesting note to the bear attack thread I referred you to on the Accurate Reloading forums is that the native guide defended himself against the polar bear with a knife! He was under the mistaken impression that Canadian law prevented him from having a firearm while guiding and being inside the tent. He would have probably fared much better with a rifle or a handgun. The point is; fight back, do not give up, carry a firearm and use it if necessary.

Larry Gibson

K.K · « **Reply #18 on:** April 11, 2006, 02:17:36 PM »

Interesting subject...

2 years ago, my uncle ( a then police chief, shot and killed an agressive black bear with a mil-spec Colt 1911 with factory hardball. It was not a big bear, but had broken into his cabin a few times and even used his porch support as a scratch pole. He scared the bear off a few times, but it came inevitably returned. He has the pelt and claws, so that sub-par ammo did the job on that bear.

However, he and I now carry Ruger vaqueros with heavy hardcast loads. I hope that we never have to deal with another nuisance bear, and we give them a wide berth. However, with today's new guns and loads, I feel perfectly safe with the old 45LC.

We were not suprised by the bear, but if we were, I'm not sure that a double action would have changed the outcome. Just my 2 cents

K.K

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2006, 05:06:10 PM »

Mr. Gibson: Just for the record. I believe that the folks that do not want to enter into this discussion, are the ones that agree with you. In that a good revolver will turn/kill bear. At least from my point of view you are preaching to the choir! :grin:

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #20 on:** April 11, 2006, 09:42:42 PM »

I might point out there here in the PRC the mountain lion is an "endangered" specie and as such has experiences phenomenal population growth. Consequently there've been a goodly number of attacks and close calls with these critters who seem to increasingly lose their fear of humankind. So, there's plenty of two legged and four legged criminals who'll cancel your ticket to ride in the PRC. It is my firm belief that a stroll in the woods without a firearm is an exercise in stupidity. However, to each his/her own.

Skeeterbaymac · « **Reply #21 on:** April 12, 2006, 04:08:14 AM »

Mr. Miller: I bet your right. I have never hunted Mt Lion and have only seen one in a zoo once years ago. But they would make me nervous. This is my uniformed opinion, (read I don't know a thing about them). Talk about a sneak attack! I think I would rather walk around in bear country. At least they don't drop out of trees on ya! I always wanted to hunt Mt Lion and Hog's with a pistol. I never have yet but always wanted to.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #22 on:** April 12, 2006, 04:09:27 AM »

Quote from: Skeeterbaymac

Mr. Gibson: Just for the record. I believe that the folks that do not want to enter into this discussion, are the ones that agree with you. In that a good revolver will turn/kill bear. At least from my point of view you are preaching to the choir! :grin:

I agree with that. However my point is that when they say negative type responses it gives the impression to many that they shouldn't bother carrying a handgun in the woods for defense. If one is going to take the time to respond at all, without wanting waste any more time on the subject, wouldn't it be more positive to say; "go ahead and carry it"? It takes just as much time to post a negative type comment of; "well I'm not going to waste my time on this one anymore!". I understand the grin and the comment and know most of those who post carry anyway but it wasn't the choir I was preaching to it was the new member of the congregation.

Larry Gibson

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 12, 2006, 09:14:12 AM »

Quote from: Larry Gibson

Quote from: Skeeterbaymac
Mr. Gibson: Just for the record. I believe that the folks that do not want to enter into this discussion, are the ones that agree with you. In that a good revolver will turn/kill bear. At least from my point of view you are preaching to the choir! :grin:

I agree with that. However my point is that when they say negative type responses it gives the impression to many that they shouldn't bother carrying a handgun in the woods for defense. If one is going to take the time to respond at all, without wanting waste any more time on the subject, wouldn't it be more positive to say; "go ahead and carry it"? It takes just as much time to post a negative type comment of; "well I'm not going to waste my time on this one anymore!". I understand the grin and the comment and know most of those who post carry anyway but it wasn't the choir I was preaching to it was the new member of the congregation.

Larry Gibson

Larry, I have made several post on many many other threads. It always turns into a Pi$$ing contest. Just for the record, I carry a CCW "Always" also while hunting I have a handgun even if I am not hunting with a handgun. A handgun is always with me, weather in the streets or in the woods.

A very simple answer is, carry if you feel you need to.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #24 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:17:25 AM »

I know Redhawk1 and believe me I appreciate the comments you and others made regarding carrying a handgun for defense. I read with interest the other threads regarding the topic and thought many of you were right on. I would have commented but it would have just been affirmation of what you were saying. You and I have discussions in the past with somewhat differant views. I think we've been civil about it and I always appreciate your views and I always expand my own knowledge with our discussions. We may not necessarily agree on everything but we present our views/opinions with logic and back them up with experience.

It was the turn this thread took right out of the chute along with another thread that made me interject here. We have a lot readers here that usually don't post much. They are probably a little intimidated by the bredth of experience and knowledge that some bring to these forums. When one does post I don't think it proper to interject negatively about the subject they post on just because you're peowed at someone else. Hell, I think we all know handguns are not "stoppers" in the classic sense of the word. Most rifle cartridges aren either. Guess I just got a little peeved, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers - my apolgies if I did. Just wanted to get my point across and back up what some of you were saying all along.

Larry Gibson

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:33:01 AM »

Larry I posted that not because of any other reason then to avoid another pissing match with people that get there experience soley from this box. I probably carry a handgun more then most here and hunt exclusively with them. The bear thing has been beat to death here and on just about every other fourm out there and though mayby one half of one percent of the people on all of the forums have had an experience just about everyone is a ballistics expert after two days on the internet. My advise to anyone wanting to here the bs posted on bears is to do a search on darn near any forum on the internet and youll get a wealth of knowlege :roll: Post something on whats a proper weapon or bullet to kill a bear or any animal in a hunting situation and ill be more then happy to help anyone here with a post or a private message or email. But to me its about like buying a gun to protect you against elephant attacts. youd be amazed how many experts there are on that too. I was not being sarcastic it was just a warning that all the computer experts were just going to start fighting again.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 12, 2006, 12:56:00 PM »

Lloyd Smale, I am with you on that. I have been doing most of my hunting with handguns out of my home State. If my State would open the season for handguns for more than a week, I would probably use nothing but handguns. Though I am a avid bow and muzzleloader hunter also. But don't get me wrong, there are some animals that I would only use a rifle on.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #27 on:** April 12, 2006, 02:41:11 PM »

I guess i said exclusively a little quickly. I do hunt bow season with a bow but still do use black powder handguns for the most part in muzzleloading season.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #28 on:** April 12, 2006, 05:46:43 PM »

I can't comment really on protection against a bear or other animal because around here(SW Virginia) our animals generally run off at full throttle. :lol:

A very real threat we have around here is the two legged version. Just a couple years ago while deer hunting, I was literally crawling on my belly(not uncommon for me) under/through a very dense thicket watching for deer legs with my 357 Blackhawk. I suddenly popped out into an opening that was never there before. In this recently cut out opening was an old house trailer that somebody had pulled in there. Laying all around were empty gallon jugs of iodine, and quite a bit of other evidence of a meth lab obviously in operation. Not knowing who all might be inside, I just eased backward on my belly into the thicket, and away from the area. After returning home, I called that counties sherriff's office, and reported it anonymously.

I've seen this type of situation play out more, and more over the years, and I know quite a few other fellows that have also stumbled into such things.

When I was a lot younger, I was about as wide open as you can get. I was forever getting myself into bad situations, and by doing such, I ran with a very dangerous crowd of low lifes. Before I turned 21 years old, I'd been shot twice, and stabbed or cut a few times to boot, with various other injuries in between. Trust me, I'm not proud of it, and I only mention it to make this point.

I've been in a few fire fights myself, and have witnessed quite a few more. They generally don't happen like the movies show. In most cases it happens extremely quick, with very little, if any time to react. It's very rarely ever a long drawed out thing with multiple reloads, and dozens of shots fired. Out of at least 15+(I'm guessing) fire fights I've either been involved in, or witnessed, I can't think of a single one that had more than a few shots fired. Most were over in two or three shots.

Personally, unless I was a cop going into a drug house, or something of that nature, I feel perfectly at ease with a single action revolver. If you're in the woods or feilds hunting, normally you'll have ample time, and opportunity to avoid possible danger, and if not, chances are a good accurate revolver would be better than you think in the hands of a man that could still shoot well under the stress of that kind of situation.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2006, 08:26:51 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale

..... My advise to anyone wanting to here the bs posted on bears is to do a search on darn near any forum on the internet and youll get a wealth of knowlege .....

Lloyd, then why didn't you just say that instead of the remark you made? The above is very good advice indeed that answers the question. You may not have intended to sound sarcastic but the perception is there. I certainly agree with you about the computer "experts" on these forums. I've got to chuckle at the chair bound computer "experts" over on another forum giving all sorts reasons why Keith couldn't have hit the deer at 600 yards with his .44. Like you , Redhawk1 and others I only post on what I have experience with. We agree on most things and disagree on some others and I enjoy the discussions we have BTW.

Larry Gibson