Author Topic: A question of Ethics (Read 2514 times)

flyingcircusboy · « **on:** April 13, 2006, 08:15:26 AM »

This year will be my first year hunting for elk. I live in washington state and there are plenty of opportunities for backcountry hunts. One of the areas I am looking at happens to be a wilderness area which means that nothing with wheels is allowed. I do not have the financial means to rent pack animals so it would be hike in/ hike out. My question is this: Ethically, how much of the animal should I pack out? It seems to be out of the question to pack it all, I am talking of distances in the ten to twenty mile range here. So what is it? Tenderloins and backstraps only? Thanks FCB

PA-Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2006, 08:30:08 AM »

This is why you do not hunt alone! A group of three should be able to pack everything out.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2006, 09:59:50 AM »

If you're ten miles in and kill an animal, how do you get it out, with all the rest of your gear, w/out the meat spoiling. I guess if a guy is 6' 12" and 300 LB then it can be done. I'm 5' 7" and weigh 185 plus I'm 63 years old, I ain't pack'n NUTT'N ten miles!!

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2006, 10:46:44 AM »

You have an ethical and in most cases LEGAL responsibility to bring out ALL the eatable meat AND proof of sex of the animal. If you cannot do that from the point at which you are hunting then you have no business hunting there. Like Dusty I'm getting old and my body is not up to it. So I don't do it. Just that simple. If you can't get them out you have no business going in after them. Go shoot prairie dogs instead.

roper · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2006, 11:03:58 AM »

We have a deal here in Colorado that you have to pack out all ediable meat. You can take in a game cart etc or bone it out. 10 miles is a long ways back in, most I do by myself is around 3/4 miles that way I can pack horns out first day maybe alittle meat. I bring plenty of rope plus some good game bags( good saw and knives) as I'll hang all the quaters. Next day if I can I'll make two packs out then the next day if I can I'll make two pack out about then I need a good rest. Depending also how far back in normally takes me 2/3 days to pack one out by myself without horses or help also in Co you must leave proof of sex, I just leave them on one quarter. I hate to say this but if you cann't pack it out shouldn't be back in there hunting. I'm 64 now and a 3/4 mile pack out for me isn't too bad but if I went in further I'd have horses. I have good pack boards for meat and I hunt pretty high up so most of my packing is going down hill sort of. As one gets older you get alittle smarter on those pack outs. 30 yrs ago didn't bother me going over mtns now I found away around them. Well good luck

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:06:36 PM »

Alaskan has a law that says you can't touch the cape and antlers until ALL the meat has been packed out. From what I hear they are dead serious about it too.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:23:55 PM »

I have humped my share of elk on my back out of "road closure" areas and because I don't follow "Larry's law of elk hunting"; never shoot an elk on the downhill side of the road!

You need to learn how to quarter the elk or if a really big one, how to take off the legs and bone out the rest. My ethics on the question; if you can't go in prepared to bring it out - don't go in. You should at least have that much respect for the game animal and yourself as a hunter.

Larry Gibson

flyingcircusboy · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:38:48 PM »

You guys are right. This was my line of thinking as well but I didn't know if there were exceptions for extreme situations. Occasionally I meet someone who is of the opinion that it is okay to take just the backstraps and tenderloins and the rack leaving the rest, but I didn't know if this was a common consensus and it sure as hell doesn't sit well with me. It is good to know that there is an ethical standard among the mainstream majority. I will try to plan my hunt so that i am not put in an overwhelming situation. Thanks, FCB

Land_Owner · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2006, 11:50:43 PM »

I recently read a story about "packing out" in either "American Hunter" or "Field and Stream" wherein the main character made round trips of not over a mile or so with each piece, staying in the woods until everything had been so packed to the transport site at a road. I can not imagine. Being in Florida brings two things to bear (no pun intended) on our hunting, heat and size of game. Bear are probably our largest mamals but not too large. Our deer, like a lot of the south, are typically less than 175#, and rather easily transportable. And well it is that they should be too for if left for three to five hours the 72+ degree weather will take care of the rest. I suppose if you are hunting very large game animals in very cold to freezing temperature spoilage is not the greatest concern; your exhaustion and the ever potential loss to other predatory game (bears for one) must be.

corbanzo · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2006, 05:29:54 PM »

GB, you are right about Alaska fins and feathers... its all business, never mess with those guys. If you are taking game under a subsitance permit, you have the break the antlers apart from eachother before you take the meat, so there is no intact trophy. If you are going to be hunting that far in, you can get a meat cart, if you can't handle it yourself. I've seen them at cabelas, don't really remember how much though. Or you can also, salt, bag, and hang the game high in a tree, and turn it into a couple of trips. We go on 5-10 day rafting trips and hunt caribou, if you package it right, it will keep very well, you just carve the very last thin layer of meat off the outside when you get it home and are processing it. Heck, Alaska native use enough salt to keep meat healhty enough to eat for months.

AK Fireman · « **Reply #10 on:** April 27, 2006, 08:01:22 PM »

If you cant pack it out, dont shoot it. The further you pack it the better it tastes.
I use a Bull pack and I bone out the meat if its a long way back. You can hang the quarters over night if you dont get it all the first day. I suggest hunting with buddies that really like elk meat and dont mind lending their backs or find someone with a couple of horses and trade them half the meat for there services.
What ever you do don't kill an animal for its antlers and waste the best part.

rockbilly · « **Reply #11 on:** April 30, 2006, 03:40:40 PM »

In my younger days I would shoot an animal miles from the truck or a road and then spend the rest of the day and half the night packing it out.. After packing several elk and deer out of the mountians of northern New Mexico, I learned to abide by what an old friend told me.

He was several (many) years older than me, a small man about 5'4" and 145 lbs, he would not shoot anything he could not drive up to. I remember a hunt to Mills Canyon NM, where he passed up a monster mule deer because he did not want to pack it out. At my age, I find I am finally as smart as he was.

flyingcircusboy. I have to agree with the above comments. If you do not intend to pack the animal out, then do not shoot it. Most people before going on a hunting trip, make arragnment to get to get the game out. If you can not get to it in a 4x4, then you should see to it that pack animals (horses or mules) are available. :shock:

bud340 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2006, 05:45:05 PM »

It sounds like you have several options, leaving the meat in the bush isn't one of them. I would seriously recomend that you build a shelter and process all the meat before bring it out. You can dry it or make pemmican, it will then be a manageable weight for one man to carry. http://www.calverley.ca/Part01-FirstNations/01-047.html

corbanzo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 11, 2006, 10:04:19 PM »

Pemmican is a crapload of work for one person. If you are going to spend the time, might as well make a few trips to pack it out. And AK Fireman is right about the further the better. Why do you think that aged beef is prefered? When you hang or pack it for long times, the meat, especially the collagen, starts to naturally break down, or rot, also known as "aging." The tender aged beef? Sits there and rots, yum!! :-D

In college (Hotel and Restaurant Management) I had a professor tell us about working in a restaurant, and a steak had green stuff growing on it, he was about to throw it away, when his boss stopped him. "It's just aged beef," he tells him, washes the stuff off, and it is used. Many good tender pieces of meat are aged for 45-90 days.

Now that I've successfully disgusted us all... safety isn't a huge problem with field dressing and packaging game. Most food related illnesses you hear about come from where the meat was packaged, because there was already a large amount of bacteria, which you won't find in the same amounts in the wild. Most wild game should be cook thoroughly in the first place, and the time from when you kill an animal till its final packaging is not enough for any bacteria to produce enough toxins, which can harm us after thorough cooking, even a few days. If there is a large initial population of bacteria, this is not the truth.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #14 on:** May 12, 2006, 10:07:48 PM »

I'd think that anybody planning to hunt more than a mile off the road would have a small 4X4 vehicle of some kind stored in the back of his truck so he could return under power and pack out the remainder of the animal. Of course, this does not apply in those "no motorized vehicle" areas.

bud340 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2006, 09:58:23 AM »

Amazing, just never to old to learn something about food. Now maybe this cooking and aging method is only typical to Ak, because I have never heard of such a lengthy aging period. I have read about the Brits hanging a duck by the head on a clothes line. It is only cooked and eaten after the neck rotts off. Amazing what people will eat and think it is normal. It is normal where they live.

I had a dog once that used to roll in all the rotten meat he could find--weird.

corbanzo · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2006, 10:09:21 AM »

Well, actually, most commercially "dry aged" beef is done at near freezing temperatures, and most of the time for 1-3 weeks, up to 6 or so. This lessens the water content which bring out more flavor in the meat, and the natural enzymes in the meat break down that connective tissue (collagen). This is only done with the more expensive cuts of meat, because it takes a very evenly distributed fat content to come out well, and you usually only find these cuts of meat in fine steakhouses and elite butcher shops. So really, it's not just a piece of meat sitting on a counter somewhere :-D

Wet aging is done in a vacuum sealed bag at the same temperatures, so there is no concentration of flavor in the process. Wet aging usually is done for 1-4 weeks, but sometimes longer. Really it all depends on the application of the meat.

In a non commercial setting, I've heard of beef being aged for over three months.... don't know if I would trust it, but hey, people eat what they like. I prefer steaks which are just dragged across the grill to kill the bacteria, a lot people think that it's disgusting, mmm meat.

gwindrider1 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:51:27 AM »

+1 to the above responses! If you are not willing to pack it out, you should not shoot it. Think about it the next time you find yourself 10 miles from camp or the truck, and ask your self what in the world am I doing back here! :wink:

wijim · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:24:30 AM »

ill be in the same situation this fall on an archery hunt in idaho.

my plan is to hang the meat and make several trips. i can cover 10 miles in pretty good time. ill be bringing very heavy duty meat sacks and boning out the animal. pacing the meat bags and then moving the meat a couple hundred yards or more and raising it up a tree up wind of gut pile and bones. my meat bags will each contain around 50 pounds of meat because thats what i'll be comfortable carrying....ive already studied the areas ill be hunting and am very confident that most positions id find success will have a downhill route to a road access...with a few nasty ravines to cross at worst.

i know im up for it and would not consider leaving anything edible behind. of course i wont be alone....i just dont hunt that way...but even if i were....i am in a position to be able to handle it myself...that i made certain of.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2006, 10:17:46 AM »

I wish somebody could drag and drop this discussion over to the Bear Hunting forum where I got raked over the coals for suggesting it was unethical for some guy to shoot a big bear deep in the woods and bring out only the skin. Even GB got into the act and suggested there was something wrong with my questioning somebody's ethical standards!! From my point of view we need to question what we see as unethical practices on a regular basis. If we don't police our own ranks you can bet your next paycheck the ant-gun/anti-hunting crowd would be more that pleased to.

Graybeard · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2006, 12:07:25 PM »

But Dusty, I personally do not consider bear meat edible and he already established there was NO LEGAL obligation to bring out the meat. Different set of circumstances.

corbanzo · « **Reply #21 on:** June 21, 2006, 08:25:21 PM »

GB, I'm not sure where or when you ate bear... but I like it. I've eaten both black and brown, and though they aren't cow, and not as mild as moose, they are plenty edible, it's a good change from your every day steak. I can't stand tomatoes, but does that mean they aren't edible? We do have some pretty lax laws when it comes to bears... they definition of "wanton waste" gets stretched preeeeeeeety far.

I passed up on a black bear just three days ago because it was one am, and I didn't want to do all of the processing work then.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #22 on:** June 21, 2006, 09:00:27 PM »

Legal SCHMEEGAL GB, we aren't talk'n about the LAW here!! We're talking about ETHICAL BEHAVIOR!! I don't give an airborne rodent's posterior if it's a ground squirrel or a Cape Buffalo, if you slay the animal and leave the meat to rot THAT is just flat out unethical!!!!!! To kill just for the sake of taking home a trophy head or skin without regard to the use of the animals meat is a practice common to the bottom feeders of society and from my perspective they should be held in contempt. Why this is not patently obvious to any human being with a lick of intelligence is his/her head just flabbergasts me. I sincerely hope that PETA crowd is not monitoring this web site 'cuz there's LOTS of ammo here to help their cause! :x

wijim · « **Reply #23 on:** June 22, 2006, 03:47:31 AM »

i personally like to eat bear. only bad bear i've ever had was just a bad cut....

im not in agreement that the carcass not be used as much as possible. i think in my standard of ethics...i personally would bring the bear meat home. but that is my personal code of ethics. i wouldn't infringe my ethics on another....

dusty....i know where you are coming from in seperating laws from ethics.....but will interject just a bit here on it. see many see the laws set up as an ethical guideline. where that is often flawed is by the passing of nonsense laws (like jaywalking in a small backwoods town...etc.) but in general...alot of people view the law as part of what would consider ethical activity.

i myself act by my own accord which most often happens to be within the law...by (sometimes) merely coincidence. i follow game laws...and most often i go above and beyong game laws to achieve personal ethics.

in trying to be ethical, i have broken laws as well..because it was the ethical thing to do. i think the statute of limitations is up now so i can say this...lol. many years ago in wyoming..i shot an illegal doe. why did i do it?....because it was missing its entire lower jaw....and was dying slowly. i shot it and left it. i was prepared to take the punishment i'd be up for....i made that decision before i shot. i didnt take it because i didnt want to flirt with being caught frivelously...as i was an out of stater. would i do it again?...you bet. was it ethical?....in my book it was imperative to do. was it legal?...not by a long ways.

now would i consider a person who didnt break the law to put that animal down?....nope....i wouldn't. i dont expect others to have the same moral compass as myself. i am the only one i can speak to on my own ethics.
i dont hold most other's morals higher or lower than my own...just different....unless of course.....they show no morality...(ie..thrillkilling...trophy poaching etc....) heck i'll give a starving poacher the benefit of the doubt if he takes an out of season doe with no tag to feed his family. but i wouldnt give the guy who sees a 7x8 elk the time of day who does the same thing for a wall hanger.

wijim · « **Reply #24 on:** June 22, 2006, 03:59:31 AM »

oops..i nearly forgot my point for bein long winded....

it seems graybeard looks at the law and the astheitics of his opinion of bear meat to make a judgement of ethics...which differs from that of the legality and palleteability of an elk in his ethical judgement there.

but thats how it appears on the surface. in reality a few things have been left out. #1...bears in many areas..need to be reduced for their own health..the health of other species...and the health of the ecosystem due to human population growth.

#2 elk dont have that same issue.

#3 if you take trophy hunters out of the equation (by trophy hunter i am referring to one who is after a nice rug as their primary objective)...you take out a large population of bear hunters....and then you have nobody willing to shoot the big nastier tasting boars who damage more of their own kind as well as impacting other species. and the big boars are not as good tasting as smaller bear (think pigs..its the same thing..big boars aren't as good) while i can eat boar.....people who are already are not into bear meat that much anyway...would never consider eating a large boar especially.

#4 if you take trophy hunting elk hunters out of the equation (only interested in the huge rack).....you still will have a to of meat hunters taking their place...most states in elk country are back logged on tags....i mean some areas..its a dang lottery or you gotta have a ton of preference points.

so you cant measure the ethics apples for apples on these two items. ive only listed a couple big differences...there are more.

but i dont like the attack and infighting based on ethics between good hunters. it weakens our community. i also dont like wasted meat....(hell i eat roadkill often cuz i hate to see a pheasant i hit with my truck go to waste)

Graybeard · « **Reply #25 on:** June 22, 2006, 05:54:36 AM »

Dusty I'm getting REAL TIRED of having to explain this to you so let's let this be the LAST TIME.

YOU are NOT the arbiter of ethics on this site.

Ethics are NOT universal.

Just because YOU do not think it's ethical DOES NOT mean it is NOT ethical.

DROP IT! NOW!!!!

wijim · « **Reply #26 on:** June 22, 2006, 07:47:08 AM »

holy guacamoly........apparently this aint the first ethics discussion thats gone on here....lol.... :bye:

skb2706 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 22, 2006, 07:54:06 AM »

dusty says

"if you slay the animal and leave the meat to rot THAT is just flat out unethical!!!!!! "

Considering the number of times per year I go and the total number of prairie dogs I kill..........I gotta be one of the most unethical souls to walk the earth. It doesn't even 'flabbergast' me.........

wijim · « **Reply #28 on:** June 22, 2006, 08:27:14 AM »

Quote from: skb2706

dusty says

"if you slay the animal and leave the meat to rot THAT is just flat out unethical!!!!!! "

Considering the number of times per year I go and the total number of prairie dogs I kill..........I gotta be one of the most unethical souls to walk the earth. It doesn't even 'flabbergast' me.........

i gotta say...i haven't eaten one feral cat yet. but then again....close range 12 guage hot loaded with t shot.....there aint much left to eat if one wanted to eat one anyhow.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #29 on:** June 22, 2006, 09:12:18 AM »

Gentlemen

Let's not get to far afield here, the original subject of this thread was ethics about packing out elk meat in Washington State. Washington State has a wanton wasting of game animal law. Ethically we, as big game hunters, should respect and not violate that law. Obeying game laws IS part of ethical conduct.

As for packing out everything we kill and eating it? No we do not. We do not eat varmints (coyotes, 'chucks, sqirrels, PDs, etc.). We do not eat most of the animals killed on a foreign safari/hunt (some gets eaten by the natives but some is also used for bait and discarded after the baited animal is killed). We do not eat mice, rats or other vermin that we trap or poisen. We do not eat flys and other bugs we hunt down and kill with a swatter. I'm sure there are some out there that possibly do eat some of these animals but please, I'd rather not get into culinary preparation of flies!

My point is that a blanket statement of "if you slay the animal and leave the meat to rot THAT is just flat out unethical!!!!!! " is not very realistic. THAT is beause as GB says "Ethics are NOT universal".

Larry Gibson