the false economy of cheap scopes

[bluebayou]

Well, I have officially learned my lesson on cheap scopes.  Previously, I have bought a Simmons 8 Point 2.5x20 shotgun scope and a Bushnell Sports-something.  At the time it seemed like the best compromise, new baby=no money, "Hey, honey, it only cost $25...."  The Bushnell went out on me pretty quick, maybe 5 shots and then no repeatable adjustment.  The Simmons has lasted as long as my .44 barrel, call it a year.  I have only made 4-5 adjustments zeroing it.  Anyway, I drove 60 miles to drop off the kids, drove 15 miles to the range, got all set up to try the new .44 loads (CCI vs Win primers, 1.72 vs 1.60 OAL, and some 180gr vs 300 gr), and 2 foulers later........the crosshairs are perfectly focused against a 20mm view of blur.  The 5" of eyerelief was nice, but there is no way that I can justify $5 in shipping and $10 handling for Simmons to replace it.  

Just for the record, I have:
VX-2 that has been back to Leupold twice
Simmons ATV that is perfecto for 3 years running
Simmons WTE that crapped out and was replaced free with WTC
Bushnell Trophy that crapped out and was replaced free with Trophy
Bushnell Banner made in Japan, bought at pawn for $20 that rocks

Either I am too picky about tracking, modern scopes are poorly constructed, or I just need to start spending $300 a whack.  Does anyone else have this much trouble with scopes?

My new cutoff will be $100 or so at the Bushnell Trophy.  Seriously thinking of spending some bank on a Nikon Monarch for the new Stevens .223.

[nomosendero]

Yes, I would go to a little higher level than $100.00 to avoid "crapping out"
at a higher level. There are close outs, sales, etc., but in principal moving up a little more will be money well spent.

[Mac11700]

I'm just like you...I actually hate having to return stuff..so..my advise is the same as nomosendaro..spend around $180-$350..and pick up a new Leupold VX-1...as much as I've had it off and on other guns..banging it around..falling down big hills...and falling down little hills...falling down crossing fences( don't ask :oops: )..it is the best $179.00 I have ever spent on a scope.I've had VX-2's...and VX-3's...I own Burris FF2's..and a Atec...and have returned the VX-3's  and traded down for the VX-1's...long non-critical eye relief..bright and clear..tuff as nails....moderately priced..

There may be so-called better scopes that transmit more light costing hundreds of dollars more..but..I'll take a VX-1 over them..for my Handi's at least...they aren't to high a price for as good of scope...and if they will stand up to my 45-70 loads and my 338-06 loads..they will do all I need...

Mac

[quickdtoo]

How are all these defective scopes mounted? I'm a firm believer that rings that don't provide a perfect bed that doesn't tweak the scope tube, either with dents commonly called "ring marks", or actually bend the front and rear tube components out of alignment, is the only way to guarantee a functional scope, cheap or otherwise.

The only way to provide that perfect bed is to lap the rings or use rings like Burris Signatures. Using rings like Millett angle-locs and not using a ring alignment tool is also asking for trouble on both issues, without an alignment tool, the front and rear rings can be way off center bending the scope tube, and using the windage adjustment is a joke unless you can move both rings the same laterally.

I know many here love Milletts and few if any lap their rings, but it certainly isn't the best for your optics if you want em to last trouble free.

My  :money: worth!!

Tim :wink:

http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/mounts.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=227261

[Bad Irv]

I've got two scopes in that 100 dollar price range that have been winners for me. One is a Bushnell Banner 6-18x50mm on my 223 Ultra, and the other is a Simmons Whitetail Classic 6.5-20x50mm on my Savage 22-250. These scopes are both A/O and may be bigger than what you want, but they both have nice clear views even at high powers and they hold their zeros very well. Don't take my word for it, go to midwayusa.com and read the reviews. In fact, they are both on sale right now. It seems like Midway puts almost everything on sale at least once a year.  :-)

Irv

[bluebayou]

Mac, you responded to someone else the other day about your love of the VX-1.  I have been bouncing it in my head since then.  Nobody touches the noncritical eyerelief of Leupold.  I just can't justify that much for a VX-2 again.  But since reading that reply I have been thinking that the basic, 2-7 VX-1 might be what I need to do.  The Monarch 3-9 and the Weaver have been my main contenders.  The Monarch for the glass.  The Weaver for the price (you see where that reasoning has gotten me).  I just don't have confidence in any manufacturer now.

Quick, the VX-2 was in Burris Signature rings both times (once, in all fairness it was cranked to the left due to a Remington barrel misalignment).  The Simmons ATV has been trouble-free in the old school Weaver rings (not lapped).  Simmons 2.5 shotgun scope in Millett anglelocs (not a fan, sorry).  I have lapped the Weaver rings on the new Trophy, WTC, and the Legend 5-15.  I forgot about the Legend on the first post.  That scope is a keeper too.  Accurate clicks and good glass but a little big.  I started lapping the rings with that scope.  The Burris rings are great, just expensive.  Midway had them on sale, but of course, they were out of stock by the time that I saw them.

[quickdtoo]

Geez, so much bad luck with scopes!!  I can say I've had just a couple bad scopes in 50yrs or so, one was a Simmons my Dad tweaked with too tight, cheap rings, another was a cheap BSA red dot. Returned a Swift for replacement due to a bad lense. Replaced the bad Simmons with an old steel K4 Weaver, it's still on Dad's 99 Savage!!

Just did a scope count, 45 of em, all in great working order!!!  Not all are mounted, but all have seen duty, no ring marks on any of em, probably should sell a few. :wink:

You won't be disapponted in the 2-7x33 VX1 Leupolds, I have 2 of em, plus a 4-12x40, great scopes for the money. The 2-7x can be had for $190.

http://theopticzone.com/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=44

I'm not a fan of expensive scope, I have a few $300+ scopes, but most are what I call mid-priced, $100-$200, there are many in that price range that are very serviceable and dependable with lifetime replacement warranties. An old saying that is worth repeating, cheap is expensive. :wink:

Tim

[hammerhead357]

Guys after reading all of the above, what about the Master Series scopes from Simmons, I think, does anyone here have any experience with them??  Wes

[quickdtoo]

Look in the Optics forum, there are a few threads, not very many positive. There aren't very many of em around for one thing, many of those that are, are disappointing, much to the contrary of the magazine articles on em. Jon at the Optic Zone did a side by side comparison of old models and Master series at RFC and the only one he said was better was the $190 Aetec, which it should be, that's VX1 territory! The others were disapponting compared to older models.

Tim

[Paul5388]

All of the scopes in my "junk" pile are either Simmons or Tascos.  The cheap Bushnells and BSAs are working fine and I use Weaver Quad Locks on most of them.  A few still have the old Weaver rings, but none have high dollar rings.  Of course, I'm still using an old Weaver V7 that was made in El Paso, so maybe y'all need to lighten up on whanging and banging around on your scopes.  :roll:

[pascalp]

Quality control, normaly, mean that factory drop junk before sell it.
If low QC, we send junk back to factory or we leave with something slightly out of spec. Sometimes product could be good and rarely perfect BUT you don't know before. Don't dream, low cost and low QC goes with cheap materials. No free meal.

In my understanding of cheap, i prefer "affordable" scope, it's better to choose simple solution, a fixed scope with no lighted reticule for example. It seems more efficient to concentrate money on real matter: optic, trackability and rugdness. A perfect knowledge of your concern, will help.
A good used scope could be the solution for tight budget.

As other stated, don't overlook mount quality.

"Old" product could be better, but not always. Modern CNC production could cut the cost and deliver a good product.

I don't know for hunter, but as target shooter use of good scope is addictive.  

I have no cheap scope to promote, the less expensive still appreciated is a Weaver KT15. I had for a few time a Sightron sii 6x42 hbrd, work well i sold-it to a buddy which is still happy with it (i prefer/need 10x at least).

[dodd3]

22 years ago i had a 4x38 cougar scope on my .22 a budy and myself where hunting pigs on a sheep stud 400 miles north of perth west oz me useing a 308 my budy a parker hale .375 h&h mag with a brand new leopold 4x scope which to his dismay would not hold zero. he said give me the cougar of your .22 if i  stuf it i will by you an other one. wot the hell it only cost $20 he put that cheep scope on the 375 never lost zero all weekend its still on the 375 and going strong not bad for a $20 scope must ad it is a very clear scope to look through my bud would not take a grand for that little scope thats how much he thinks of it, sad to say we dont see that brand any more.every one that bought one never had any trouble with them.as i remember they where made in spain. so sumtimes you can get a good cheep brand.
bernie  

[Mac11700]

I don't think there is a manufacture of scopes that hasn't had a bad run or two of any model...I've seen 3 Scmitt & Benders..2 Swarvo's that came  from the same lot that were broken in the store..same for a few Leupolds..Burris..& Weaver's..that were broken before they left...You just gotta make sure they aren't before you buy them if you can..It makes me wonder if some of these stores are buying factory seconds or referbs...and selling them for new..

Bluebayou:

I have all 3 of the VX-1's...the 2x7...3x9...4-12...and they all preform admirally...They aren't perfect for some folks..a-lot of guys hate friction rings and want audble clicks..I have never found this to be a big problem..they have always returned to zero no matter how many times I shoot the 4" grid or move them from one rifle to another..the VX-1's have 1/4" movement...not the  1/2" as the old Vari x's..They stay in zero even with heavy loads I shoot over them....and as rough as a sometimes clutts as myself can be with them..

I rate scopes a little different than most folks I don't put stock into all the computer generated numbers as so-many poeple do..I rate scopes as I look thru them in the field and how they preform for me ...I have a eye condition that makes it almost impossible to discern  clear detail at first & last lite.... I've taken several different brands out and compared them at these times..looking into a wood line from an open field,being in dark wood looking out into a field..and looking in the dark woods..a-lot of the higher rated "better" scopes do no-better job clearing this up for me and many don't work well at all....

Can I say I really like these scopes...absolutely..They may cost more than some of the bargin brands...but their prices isn't to far out of line for the quality your getting...and one of the real nice things is you can send them back to Leupold and have them repaired if the need ever arises..even if your not the original owner..you don't have to fib about it as with some of the other brands...Also..you can have the reticle changed for a small fee..something I'm going to be doing with mine once I have all of my testing done...this is something not offered with many other brands and would void their warrenties if done by a unauthorized repair center..

Are there better cheaper scopes available...I'm sure someone will own one..but..for my money..I'll buy a Leupold VX-1 and not worry about it..

Mac

[Fred M]

Mac

I have a eye condition that makes it almost impossible to discern clear detail at first & last lite....

I have a similar problem and find the cheaper scopes have lenses that do not help me with my vision. Some of them may not be bad but why waste my time and money.

So I buy a scope with good lenses and quality reputation. I have only one economy scope and I sure can tell the difference when I look through it.

This Bushnell Banner scope is by no means at the very bottom of the scope spectrum and it is quite servicable since I used it on several different rifles without trouble.

[Plinkomatic]

The Tasco Target scope on my Survivor is now about 700 rounds old and has been great.  It sits on nice Warne rings. I've been told by some pretty decent precision rifle shooters at the range that good rings are vital and can make a good scope garbage on the quick.
The cheapo Barska on my 10/22 has also been great, and that one I've cranked through the clicks many many times for silhouette competition, and it keeps zero.

[lonewolf5348]

I must say a good low end scope that I used are made by millet called a buck silver.I had two of them ,one mounted on a 54 cal. t/c inline that I pushed to the max: never had any problems with the buck silver.I also had one mounted on a BNZ custom 8 mm mauser that never gave me any problems.
I had a couple of tasco back in the early 70's and bushnells,both made in Japan ,that I still have 35 years later and have no problems with them,just don't have any rifle to put them on and just sit in the gun safe.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

I own Leupold, Simmons and Bushnell scopes and seriously, I can't really tell any difference when looking through them.  I do, however, lap all my rings before mounting the scope.

Jim

[Ireload2]

I would like to point out that closing the action of your break open single shots may put additional stress on you scopes than say a bolt gun or falling block action.
What do you usually have a few years after buying a cheap scope - a clunker that is worth about nothing.
The best scope buys I have ever made are the $80 to $100 dollar deals for used Leupold Vari XIIs.  I also have 2 of the Leupold BR scopes that I got extremely good deals on. I have never regretted buying a decent quality scope.

[myarmor]

I also have noted things that should be taken into account when shopping for a new scope.
Look through them yourself!
Everyone agrees that everyones eyes are different.
Different needs, different budgets. Get the best you can on what budget you can afford. It makes for less frusteration and money in the long run.
To my eyes Weaver products fit me very well. As do Bushnell 3200, Trophy, Legend, even some Banner models for that matter. The 4200's to me weren't as sharp as the 3200 :? , go figure.
Leupolds, for the most part, all do well with my eyes, as do the Ziess...and might I add, WOW :shock: If you can afford one, by all means!
These are just a few examples, to my eyes likes and dislikes.
So point in case, go try them out yourself, at all costs. You just might be surpised what fit's better than others...

[Uncle Ji]

In over 35 years of shooting I have never purchased a scope that cost more than $100 nor have a ever had one fail on me.  The scopes I bought were mostly made by Bushnell with a few Tascos for good measure.  These were all made in Japan and of excellent quality considering their price though from what I've been hearing the more recent Chinese made Bushnells and Tascos are of questionable quality.  On my most recent purchase a Handi in 223 I mounted a BARSKA 3-9x40 Huntsman scope, the deal was undeniable, I've been happy so far with the BARSKA binoculars, and I fugured for a light recoiling 223 it SHOULD hold up okay, i'll keep you posted on the results.

[jmckinley]

I have used Redfield, Weaver, Leupold , Bushnell and Tasco over my 4 decades of hunting and the best I have owned were two the old Redfied Widefield and vari X II, but with that said I had a Tasco World Class on an 06 and never once had a problem with it. Never failed in 7 or eight years. I am now using Bushnell Scopechiefs, Weaver K6 and those will be the scopes on my future rifles. The clearest scope I have looked thru has been The Grand Slam 4-14 and all I can say is WOW! That said I can not afford a $ 375 scope on a teachers salary period. I will purchase a Trophy , Banner Weaver V or K series and never need any more. I have never spent over $ 100.00 bucks on a scope and have done very well thank you. I do think you need to spend your money on a know product like the Bushnells or Weaver and then the less expensive scopes will serve you well. Jess

[9x19]

My current favorite scope is the Nikon ProStaff 2x-7x 32mm ($130).

It does everything I need a scope to do, has proven reliable, even sitting on my Mini 30, and has a crisp field of view and plenty of eye-relief.


That said, I have a number of Simmons (made in Japan, not China) 1.5x - 5x Pro Hunter scopes ($60 each) that have been great on my .22 Hornet, both of my .17 Rimfires and even on my 7.62 x 39.

I wouldn't trust them to last a lifetime on anything with alot of recoil such as my .45/70 but they perform well for my uses.

[quickdtoo]

You fellas need to shop around a bit or ask more questions, I continually see prices quoted that are substantially more than our sponsor Jon at The Optic Zone sells em for, he sells the matte 2-7x32 Prostaff for $109 and the 3-9x for $125. :wink: The Prostaff is a great scope for the money, btw!!

Tim

http://theopticzone.com/searchresult.aspx?CategoryID=54

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Oh ya, I forgot to add that I will NEVER buy a scope that is made in China!  Someday, they may make something decent, but I will never buy it.

Jim

[quickdtoo]

PRC already makes some nice optics, Muellers are made there, can't say enought good about them, nothing bad, they have an excellent reputation and track record.

Many serviceable optics are made in PRC, Bushnell up to the Trophy for one!! Millett and of course, all Simmons now including the Master series...which may change back to the Philippines if they don't get their act together in their new plant!!

Tim

[Dillohide]

Not trying to be a proponent of less expensive scopes but got to share this. Back in the 80's I didn't have a lot of money to spend on a deer rifle so found a model 670A Winchester 30-06 at a pawn shop that outwardly had not been cared for well ... little rust on the barrel, dinged up stock. I cleaned it up, re-blued it myself and refinished the stock. Then went to Academy and because I did not know any better bought a World Class Tasco 3x9 scope. However I also bought Leoplold solid base and rings then mounted it using loctite. That scope on that gun has killed a lot of deer over the years, never missed and never lost zero point of impact. I kept thinking I needed to get a better scope but just didn't. Finally last year because my eyes are not what they used to be, I replaced the Tasco with a Bushnell Trophy 3x9x40 and must say it is much brighter and clearer. The point is if you take care of your scope and rifle, don't bang it around and mount it right, even less expensive scopes can last a long time. All scopes no matter how expensive can have problems. Not saying you don't take care of yours but so many times the problems are caused by the user and has nothing to do with scope quality.

[Paul5388]

I suppose it should be noted that you don't need a Stradivarius if you're just going to fiddle around!  :eek:

Another note is, it's hard to wear out a scope by looking through it!  :roll:

[quickdtoo]

I suppose it should be noted that you don't need a Stradivarius if you're just going to fiddle around!  :eek:

 
Good one, Paul!! :agree: :agree: :agree:

Speaking of Stradivarius, my Granddad built 2 of em before he passed on, bless his soul!! He was an original Jack of all Trades, but he trully was a master of violin making and other fine woodworking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stradivarius

[Dillohide]

I'd say 20 deer seasons averaging 3 deer per year plus numerous trips to the range in between with the same scope and rifle is not fiddleing around.

[Paul5388]

A Tasco isn't a Stradivarius either!    A scope in the $1000 range is a Stradivarius.   :wink: