Analysis of why Winchester closed?

[Questor]

1) Foreign competition
2) High wages and challenging labor practices in a high tax state
3) An owner unfamiliar with the U.S. firearms business

Is that right? (No particular order is implied.)

[ricciardelli]

How about poor product design and continusously changing the product line.

[Graybeard]

I don't think foreign competition played any real part in it. Remember the plant only made three products: Model 70, Model 94 and the elcheapo pump 1300.

Marlin is the only real competition for the 94 and Mossberg and the Rem. 870 Express the primary competition for the shotgun. All bolt action rifles were the competition for the Model 70 which has been going down hill since the change in '64. It really just never recovered from that.

I think the real reason was Herstal wanted to dump the employees and the benefits package they had. Strictly a union busting move on their part. They had reduced the employees from about 15,000 to about 130 so you know it wasn't much of a player in the over all scheme of things.

[Questor]

Interesting. I haven't paid much attention to their product line; it didn't seem to vary much more than anybody else's. What was wrong with their product design?

The reason I mentioned foreign competition is that brands like Tikka and CZ really got my attention away from Winchester when it came time for me to buy a centerfire rifle.  They just seemed better.

I can understand busting the union because I don't see how they can be profitable operating from a place like Connecticut. It's the same thing here in high-tax Minnesota. Ford is closing down a plant in St. Paul soon for pretty much the same reasons. They could modify the plant to manufacture another model, but why would they want to when other manufacturers are operating in Tennessee and other states more friendly to business?

[Questor]

By the way, I just read that Remington is going to offer a model 798 rifle with a 98-Mauser-like action. That seems to be from foreign competition too.

[lefty o]

unless you've got your fingers in winchester of FN's books, i dont know how anybody could try pointing out why the plant is closing/closed.
 as for the poor product design, lets see the model 94 has been around for over a hundred years, must be a P.O.S! the model 70 aint no spring chicken either. poorly desinged products dont stand the test of time like that.

[ricciardelli]

unless you've got your fingers in winchester of FN's books, i dont know how anybody could try pointing out why the plant is closing/closed.
 as for the poor product design, lets see the model 94 has been around for over a hundred years, must be a P.O.S! the model 70 aint no spring chicken either. poorly desinged products dont stand the test of time like that.

Other than more modern metals, all the design changes since the '94 and the 70 were released on the market were to decrease the cost of production, and the side effect with each "improvement" was a deterioration in the product.

As the old saying goes, "If you can't convince them with facts, dazzle them with bullsh!t."  And that is what Winchester attempted to do, if your product is becoming less desirable because of poor workmanship and design, then offer "newer and improved" models with all kinds of gizmo choices.  But make sure that the "new and improved" model is not as good as the original.

[lefty o]

i dont know about that. i have a model 70 of recent manufacture, and it is the equal of the pre-64 guns, and it will shoot with any of them. that is not to say that they did not have a few bad years.

[ricciardelli]

Okay, let's look at the production history of the '94:
Between 1894 and 1940 there were two different models of the '94.  Between 1940 and 1964 there was one model 94 being produced.  Between 1964 and current date, there are 27 different model 94's on the market.  Those 27 different model 94's have an average used value of around $120.  That should tell you something.

As for the Model 70:
From 1936 to 1946 there was only one Model 70.  From 1946 to 1963 there were 10 different Model 70's available.  And from 1964 to date there are 73 different Model 70's on the market, with a  average used value of around $240!

As you can see, Winchester went from brilliance to bullsh!t in the most recent years, along with the change of ownership and manufacturing sites several times.

Winchester is not the only company that has suffered because they had poor management and strayed from their original purpose.

When Ruger decided that they wanted to "improve" the model 77 and satisfy lawyers instead of shooters, nasty things happened there.  That is why the old 77 is worth more than a brand spanking new 77 MKII.  The same goes for when they decided to once again satisfy lawyers instead of shooters, and came out with the "New Model" single-actions, there was a lot of disgust from Ruger owners, and once again, the old models are worth more than a brand-spanking-new "New Model".  

Colt went down the tubes because they couldn't match the value of their single action revolvers with those of other competitors.  They were charging an extra $1000 just because the frame had "Colt" etched on it.

If it weren't for a single shotgun, the 500, Mossberg would have been buried long time ago.  They realized the necessity of having a limited number of products on the market, and making sure there was a market for their product.

Daly, probably one of the best shotguns on the market went down the tubes and though the name lives on, the product has changed hands many times in recent years and they are now junk.

The list can go on and on about failed companies, be they firearms or automobiles or boats or recreational vehicles.  

When you start cutting corners, and raising prices; when your product is not as good as similar products; or when your company changes hands more often than I change my underwear; or you start offering "do-dads" as "improvements", you will become history!

[Questor]

ricciardelli:

Thanks for the inspiring words of joy  :wink:

One thing that I had always seen as the gold standard was the Remington 700. It's really got it's fans. When I bought one and did a routine disassembly for cleaning and inspection prior to firing I was aghast at the design of the trigger and safety mechanisms. This is a custom shop rifle. I'm thinking of replacing the trigger and safety with better designs. I understand that a 3-position safety can be installed and that the trigger can be replaced with a Timney or some other high quality model.

[victorcharlie]

I certainly can't find a Winchester 94 in a 30/30, or any other caliber for $120 around here and I keep an eye out for them.  

I don't know why the winchester plant closed, but I suspect in a few months a Winchester will be produced in Eastern Europe that will sell for about the same price as the ones produced in the USA, just the profits will be higher.

[ricciardelli]

Maybe you can't find them, but I was in my local smith's shop recently and a guy came in with two used '94's.  Both in well-used condition, and he accepted $100 each for them.

In less than an hour both left the shop for $125 each.

[Questor]

Around here $100 is the going rate for a 94 from a private seller.  Condition almost doesn't matter as long as the condition is reasonable.

[Coyote Hunter]

In the end it boils down to continued poor management.

[longwinters]

I never worked there, and actually never was too keen on Winchesters.  But all you have to do is a little reading and some observation and it is not going to take you long to see where "big business is going.  Our company just gave the CEO over 2 million in bonus'and stock options and the other officers 10% increase.  But oh, by the way . . . they are laying off 2000 workers (union and non-union) to better position themselves for the future.  Who's future?

Long