7-30Waters Contender reloading - Long Post

[rimfire]

Guys,

I have some questions regarding loading for this firearm.  First I want to say that my reloading experience is limited with bottleneck cartridges so don't assume anything about my abilities.

I am loading for a Virgin Valley 14" 7-30 barrel with Federal Factory brass, Win748 + CCI MLR primers and Varget with CCI Large Rifle BR primers...all with Nosler 120 grain Balistic Tip bullets seated around 0.020 off of the rifling.  I am loading around the middle of the load recommendations for these powders in most manuals I have looked in.

Dies are RCBS FL resizing and I also have a Lee Factory Crimp Die due to positive experience with these dies on straight wall cartridges.

I have heard about very limited case life with this cartridge due to relatively thin weak brass and want to maximize case life if possible.

I am getting some significant velocity variation across my chrono and I would like assistance with that.

Accuracy has been very good at 100 yards with anything I have tried [less than 1.25" for 3 shots with all loads I have put together, many under an inch], so these questions are related to consistent velocity and maximum case life only.

Here are my specific questions...

1.  How should I adjust my sizing die for minimum rework of the brass, or with this die do I just FL size and move on?  

2.  Opinon on switching to Lee Collet dies or some other special sizing die for increased case life or more consistent bullet pull?

3.  I bought the Lee FCD as I have a very experienced reloader friend who said that most of his frustration with consistent velocities in his handloads went away when he tried the FCD on his 30-06 and he now swears by them for every caliber he loads for.  The FCD decreased my velocity spread on my 44 mag loads from 48-50 fps down to 7 fps for my standard hunting load [previously crimped with the RCBS crimp die in my die set], but the design of the FCD for straight wall cartridges is very different so I have no dataq yet for bottleneck cartridges and a FCD.

4. Should I be looking at forming my own cases from 30-30 as right now I get them from Federal factory 7-30 loads?  I am worried about having to anneal them or something else I am not familiar with that might frustrate me

5. I will gladly listen to any comments you have on loads, bullet seating depth, case prep [I tumble and clean the primer pocket only so far...have done nothing else at all] or anything else you have for me.  

Sorry to be so vague and open, but I am trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can.

Thanks.

Barry

[Curtis]

1. How should I adjust my sizing die

For sure you don't want to screw it all the way down to the shell holder.  Best accuracy (and case life) will be obtained if the case headspaces on the shoulder and not the rim.  I tried smoking the case neck with a match to see when the die contacted the shoulder, but didn't really feel warm and fuzzy about that method.  Now I adjust my FL sizer by "feel" using my barrel as a guage.  I try to bump the shoulder back just enough that the case head sticks out of the chamber an amount equal to my barrel to frame gap (closing the action on a feeler guage, I found that mine is .004").  With a rimmed case I don't think it is necessary to remove the extractor to get a good reading like you would have to with a non rimmed caliber.

I have no experience with the Lee Collet die.

I do not crimp

4. Should I be looking at forming my own cases from 30-30

I have 60 7-30 cases, but I formed 150+ from 30-30 and did not anneal.  This brass was of unknown origin and I still only lost about three pieces to splits at the shoulder.  Even moreso than with resizing, the initial sizing operation must ensure that the shoulder of the case is properly positioned or you can get stretching ahead of the web during fire forming.  A tiny bit of resistance to closing the action is probably not a bad thing on fire forming.  I recently had my first experience at annealing brass when forming some .256 win mag from .357 mag brass.  It's not a big deal and you don't have to do it often.  Be sure to do it in a darkened room so you'll know when the brass gets a dull red color.

That's about all I can offer, except that I've used IMR-3031, IMR-4198, and AA-1680 and the latter really improved my groups over the other two.  My barrel is a 14" that was rechambered from 7mm TCU so it is not plagued by the long throat of my other TC barrels.

Hope this helps,
Curtis

[PaulS]

Barry (rimfire),

First - how does your OAL compare with what is called for in your manuals?
If the manual calls out 2.4 inches and you are seating the bullets to an OAL of 2.6 inches then you need to increase your powder charge a bit to keep the pressure the same.

Next - how much variation are you getting and how far from the average velocity is it? (what is your extreme spread in velocity, and what is the average velocity)

If you adjust your die to size the first .25 inch of neck you will get the best life from your cases. It should leave part of the neck large enough to aid in centering the round in the chamber.

Don't crimp with a single shot unless you have to - it works the "neck rim" a lot and will cause splits. The case necks, properly sized will give very consistant bullet pulls.

You say that accuracy has been good but you say that it goes from under an inch to 1 1/4". Is this with the same powder charge? or was this different powder charges. Do you have some charges that have given consistantly under one inch groups?

I would not recommend forming your cases from 30-30 at this point - why add a bunch of new variables to a problem that exists without them? You can always do this later after you have solved the problems you have now. When you form your brass from 30-30 you should compare the weigh of the empty cartridges to see if you need to adjust your load or not. The general rule with double base powders is add 1 grain of powder for every 5 grains a case is lighter or reduce your load 1 grain for each 5 grains the case is heavier. (this rule will work for the WW748 but I am not sure about the Varget)

Guys,

I have some questions regarding loading for this firearm.  First I want to say that my reloading experience is limited with bottleneck cartridges so don't assume anything about my abilities.

I am loading for a Virgin Valley 14" 7-30 barrel with Federal Factory brass, Win748 + CCI MLR primers and Varget with CCI Large Rifle BR primers...all with Nosler 120 grain Balistic Tip bullets seated around 0.020 off of the rifling.  I am loading around the middle of the load recommendations for these powders in most manuals I have looked in.

Dies are RCBS FL resizing and I also have a Lee Factory Crimp Die due to positive experience with these dies on straight wall cartridges.

I have heard about very limited case life with this cartridge due to relatively thin weak brass and want to maximize case life if possible.

I am getting some significant velocity variation across my chrono and I would like assistance with that.

Accuracy has been very good at 100 yards with anything I have tried [less than 1.25" for 3 shots with all loads I have put together, many under an inch], so these questions are related to consistent velocity and maximum case life only.

Here are my specific questions...

1.  How should I adjust my sizing die for minimum rework of the brass, or with this die do I just FL size and move on?  

2.  Opinon on switching to Lee Collet dies or some other special sizing die for increased case life or more consistent bullet pull?

3.  I bought the Lee FCD as I have a very experienced reloader friend who said that most of his frustration with consistent velocities in his handloads went away when he tried the FCD on his 30-06 and he now swears by them for every caliber he loads for.  The FCD decreased my velocity spread on my 44 mag loads from 48-50 fps down to 7 fps for my standard hunting load [previously crimped with the RCBS crimp die in my die set], but the design of the FCD for straight wall cartridges is very different so I have no dataq yet for bottleneck cartridges and a FCD.

4. Should I be looking at forming my own cases from 30-30 as right now I get them from Federal factory 7-30 loads?  I am worried about having to anneal them or something else I am not familiar with that might frustrate me

5. I will gladly listen to any comments you have on loads, bullet seating depth, case prep [I tumble and clean the primer pocket only so far...have done nothing else at all] or anything else you have for me.  

Sorry to be so vague and open, but I am trying to soak up as much knowledge as I can.

Thanks.

Barry

[Curtis]

If the manual calls out 2.4 inches and you are seating the bullets to an OAL of 2.6 inches then you need to increase your powder charge a bit to keep the pressure the same

Hey Paul,
I've wondered about that very thing, but never saw anything about it in print.  I think the first time the thought occurred to me was when I saw a 300 gr 44 bullet with two crimp grooves.  I thought "that's gotta increase case volume tremendously" but did not persue it further since I was seating to "normal" depth.  Do you know where I can get more info on the subject?

Thanks,
Curtis

[PaulS]

Curtis,

Look at powder as a power source. a certain amount of powder has a certain amount of energy . Twenty grains will push a bullet at the same speed no matter what the case volume is as long as pressures are within a certain range. If pressures go too low then the powder goes out, if the pressure goes too high then we blow things up. To be at its most efficient powder has to burn at as close to the optimal pressure as possible. If you load your bullet long the pressure drops and efficiency drops but speed will stay the same.
Why does it happen? Because smokeless powder burns faster as the pressure rises. Some powders are less tollerant of pressure changes - like H110 or WW296. If the pressure drops just a little from the optimal range the powder loses its ability to burn - and you get squib loads or misfires. Close up the volume by seating the bullet a bit deeper and you get clean consistant burns that provide velocities near the top of capability but the pressure has to be maintained at or near the 30000 psi range.
H4895 is a powder that has little sensitivity to pressure. it can be loaded down to 60% of maximum without losing accuracy and as high as 100% with pressures in the 50000 PSI range while remaining consistant.
The pressure needs to be controlled to get and keep consistant velocity and accuracy. I think that it is pressure that matters more than velocity where leading happens close to the forcing cone of a revolver and the chamber of a rifle. If the pressure rises too fast or goes beyond a certain level it breaks the lead down faster than it would withthe same heat in a lower pressure.
Lots here but I don't want to hijack this thread. it will come up in the future and we can explore it more fully then.

[Curtis]

Paul, that helps some thanks for taking the time.

Curtis

[Steve P]

Here is a copy of a reply I did to a prior post.  It will lend information on sizing and bullet seating:
++
Whoa! Stop right there. You have just described the initial starting point in adjusting the sizing die. This will give you a starting point but is NOT the end result. You still have to adjust your die to your brass and to your gun. I trust you sized and trimmed all your brass when new?

For the encore, you only need to size the brass enough to get a firm closure in the action. You want that rim against your action, not dropping into the barrel. If the brass is overly sized, you have a few thousandths jump upon firing before the rim hits the action. With a bullet near the lands, and seated deep in the case, the rim can only move backward to the action by stretching the brass.

Take a fired brass and see how it fits in your encore. Does it slide right in? Firm closure of the action? If so, you want to set that sizing die to just kiss the brass in the area where the bullet is seated. No more.

Brass rim thickness is not always uniform. Neither is the rebate in the barrel. Dont size Encore or Contender brass on the rim. Size all Encore and Conteder brass so you just get a firm closure of the action. There are exceptions to this rule (22 hornet) but it works for most.
++
You can make 7x30 brass from 30-30.  Works slick.  Oversizing the brass work hardens it.  You may have to anneal if they get brittle.  I have some RP brass on 5th or 6th firing with no probs so far.

I only put a crimp on loads for my model 94 due to tubular magazine.  I dont crimp for my contender.

Good info above.  See if this helps.

Steve  

[MnMike]

Just my opinion.

I found that my 7-30 would kick the primers out a bit on both factory rounds and reloads. I was also getting bad groups. I noticed that the sizing rounds I was using for 30-30 brass were pretty accurate. I took a batch of Federal brass and loaded them as sizing rounds, seated to the lands and lower powder charge. I shot them and then stayed away from the shoulder when reloading. These have given me my best accuracy. On other clibers, I use the Lee collet die. So far they don't make one for the 7-30 except for a custom (about $60).

good luck,

mike