Author Topic: 9mm 115 grain or 147 grain, Does it really matter (Read 2166 times)

SoftPoint · « **on:** April 20, 2006, 11:28:30 AM »

At normal pistol personal defense distances, whick I would say are 10 yards or less, does it really matter if you are shooting 115 grain or 147 grain JHP's? Is there going to be any difference in stopping power? I am referring to standard pressure loads, i.e.: no +p rounds.

slink · « **Reply #1 on:** April 20, 2006, 11:36:33 AM »

The 147 gr has no hope of reliable, full expansion in flesh at such low velocities. It MIGHT have a chance at 1000+ fps, but the 1300+ fps plus P 115 gr is a better bet. Better still is the CorBon 100 gr PowRBall, or better yet, their 90 gr Plus P jhp, if your gun will reliably feed the latter. Some won't. It's a pretty stubby little bullet.

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 20, 2006, 02:25:35 PM »

Softpoint,

The 147gr. does have more stopping power and would be a better choice for defense in a non-+P load. I have seen the difference in weight against a steel plate. My Dad uses a 9mm, and would always have a hard time knocking those plates down even at 7yds with 115 and 124s. He now loads 147gr. FMJs at close to 950fps. He is knocking them down with very near the same gusto as the guys with 45s, even up to 25 yds. So yes, the 147gr. does have more mass and inertia, as shown by the reaction of the steel plates.

As for expansion, Speer's 147gr. GD HP is likely to offer expansion even in spite of the above said "such low velocities." Speer's technicians take into consideration the velocity ranges for popular bullet/cartridge combinations. Read it here, as I am not making anything I say up:

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=3&s2=7&s3=6

Be sure to click on the full story link as well on that same page.

-Patriot

corbanzo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 20, 2006, 02:56:01 PM »

The expansion will tear up more flesh, but the bigger bullet will be felt more. More of that, "spin 'em around" power. It's kind of like the .40SW or the 45auto, same ballistics, but the .45 with a bigger chuck o lead hits harder and puts down faster.

257 roberts · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2006, 04:48:37 PM »

115gr is better than 147gr if you believe everything that you read
ILL. state police used the 115+p+ with very very good results.

jeager106 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2006, 05:31:23 PM »

Quote from: 257 roberts

115gr is better than 147gr if you believe everything that you read
ILL. state police used the 115+p+ with very very good results.

Ditto what he said!

Odd how people still want to believe that terminal ballsitics on steel plates must be the same for terminal effects on living tissue ain't it?
In this day and age of information technology and scientific ballsitics research some still believe a human target will react the same as a bowling pin. :?
No handgun has the power to knock anyone down.
Or spin them around like a top either.
I suggest you do some reading up on terminal ballistics if you are interested.
God only knows what people will post on the internet talk boards. :-D :-D

Patriot_1776 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 20, 2006, 07:43:09 PM »

Good Lord, what does it take to explain a few things? Let's go through it, step by step....

Quote

Softpoint,

The 147gr. does have more stopping power and would be a better choice for defense in a non-+P load.

OK, I started by stating what I would believe is a better load when considering something that is non-+P rated, no more no less. Going to a +P load will change things drastically, and I would have a different viewpoint. But this is mine regarding this particular question.

Quote

I have seen the difference in weight against a steel plate.

Notice I said weight, not steel slaughtering abilities or terminal ballistics. I never judge a bullet's defense abilities by shooting a steel plate. I only implied the apparent inertial difference when comparing 115s, 124s, and 147gr. bullets. Again, these are my personal observations (there are witnesses to these very same observations) regarding the increased toppling power against a steel plate only; this is not expected to perform the same against an armed assailant. The author of this thread wanted to know what difference in knockdown power there was between 115s and 147gr bullets; well, this offers a little better understanding of the principle. I know darn well there is really no defense pistol round that will knock a guy back so fast his dentures remain where his mouth was mere moments ago. Leave that to the cartoons boys.

Quote

As for expansion, Speer's 147gr. GD HP is likely to offer expansion even in spite of the above said "such low velocities." Speer's technicians take into consideration the velocity ranges for popular bullet/cartridge combinations.

Did anyone notice how I moved from an aspect of how a plate is toppled, to a different point of view? I'm recommending a well known defense bullet, that is not in any way similar to a FMJ steel toppling bullet. Quite the contrary; it is a bullet commonly spoken of in terminal ballistics. At least is should be; there seems to be a good following of those who use them. I'm not in any way, shape or form trying to imply how a steel plate reacts also mirrors terminal ballistics that is to be expected against an assailant. I was merely pointing out the difference found in the reactions regarding steel plates and different weight bullets. This was an attempt to only help the author have a better mental picture of how much difference weight can actually make. Yes, I said this again in a different way, but it seems it is the only way I can explain my post.

Come one jeager106, I think you know me better than that. I know you have read many of my posts, and many of them have made sense you have to admit. Perhaps what I was saying regarding the steel plates was too vague; I hope I have helped clear that up a little bit. But I do pray you guys don't want me to have to write an entire outline like this about each of my posts from now on to help avoid misunderstanding. That would be too much, especially this time of night.

:coffee:

-Patriot

jeager106 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2006, 10:31:01 PM »

Patriot_1776
Good post! :toast:
I guess I'm still reeling from the recent posts advocating the North American Arms in .22 magnum as a viable back up weapon. :noway: :roll:

slink · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2006, 02:28:32 AM »

non-plus P 147 gr 9mm is the same performance as 38 special plus p, in other words, pathetic.

Feldhege · « **Reply #9 on:** April 21, 2006, 03:19:53 AM »

I beg to differ. I use Winchester Rager T 147gr bullets. There are several forums and websites (I will locate them and list them here) that can talk about this using facts and statistics.

It boiled down to 2 things.

Some people like light fast bullets and some like slower heavy bullets.

I am the latter. The Winchester Ranger T 147 gr bullet is rated for 12"-14" of penetration. The slug will also reliabily expand according to several of the test articles. It also shoots better in my Glock 19 then the 115gr +P loads. I have done my research and FOR ME, I am betting my life on that load. Everyone has to research what they want to shoot.

In the end, it will come down to shot placement not any weight or power rating.

Just my .02

Robb

slink · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2006, 01:25:48 PM »

it will be all you can do to keep most of your shots on the chest, when you are ducking blows and incoming bullets. If you can hit the heart, why not hit the brain? Same size, and we know very well that heart hits have no hope of delivering the instantaneous stop that we need. We know that a high velocity hit to the head will splash his brain, and drop him like a rock.

I mean really high velocity, as in 2000+ fps, which, contrary to the claims of the ignorant, most definitely can be had in service guns. For instance, Mag Safe has had a 2000+fps 9x19 load for a decade now. Not to say that the birdshot-prefrag is the way to go, but just to show that the velocities can be had. A solid copper, 60 gr hollowpoint or 3 segment prefrag (like the QuikShok) could be driven to 2300 fps, no problem, in a 4" barreled 9x23 Win or 9x25 Dillion belt pistol.

The sites you are talking about feature BS about jello blocks. I test on animals, and believe me, sub 1000 fps jhp 9mm's do not expand reliably in the chests of animals. It's even worse on men, because the nose-cavity clogs up with debris from the guy's clothing.

Sir Knight · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2006, 10:19:59 PM »

Quote from: slink

If you can hit the heart, why not hit the brain?

A miss to the heart can still hit a vital organ in the general area which will slow your target down so that a more accurate follow-up shot can be fired. If you miss the head, you miss your target.

jeager106 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2006, 02:36:08 AM »

Quote from: slink

non-plus P 147 gr 9mm is the same performance as 38 special plus p, in other words, pathetic.

Oh, horse biscuits slink.
You tlak about brain shots as the only reliable way to stop an agressor and you ar spot on the money.
You also say it's difficult enough to hit the heart under combat conditions.
Also spot on the money!
So what makes you even think you can brain a boogy man if you can't chest him under stress?
You can't.
ANY load will drop a boogy man if it pentrates the brain.
Most of the dead by gunshot were not killed with an 800 dollar handgun or .223 rifle.
They were killed deader than viginity with a .25 auto, .22 r.f., .32 S&W, one a .32 Colt, various 12 gauges (very devestating) and so forth.
None were shot with a hi-tech round or expensive weapon.
Duh!
I even had one homicide by broken golf shaft!
I never saw a stabbing victim sliced and diced wtih an expensive fighting knife but have seen dead people from buck 29 paring knives.
I even saw one kid killed with a shot to the temple from a 12 dollar CO2 pistol and steel bb.
A brainer will ruin someones day in a hurry.
It own't matter one bit what the round was or where it came from.
You can talk all you want about freak incidents of boolits bouncing off skulls but those are simply that.
Freak incident.
The .38 spl. is a good 'nuff defensive round. I would not feel unarmed with a .39 spl.
Or a 9mm for that matter.
I prefer a .357 or .45 scp and I am addressing handguns here, not rifles.

slink · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2006, 08:25:29 AM »

Your "sample" ONLY involved the dead. What about those so hit who lived, hmm? Lethality and stopping power are only SLIGHTLY interrelated. Your sample would be like a convict in prison saying"Everyone gets caught". No KIDDING, the wouldn't BE in prison if they hadn't got caught, but we all know that plenty don't get caught (ever). So an ignorant person "thinks" that the .38 is ok, so what? Millions "think" that the .25 Raven is ok, too. Those who know jack say that the .38 isn't much, because there's so much evidence that it's NOT.

jimster · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2006, 09:29:30 AM »

Slink...my better half loves the .38, but she's not ignorant as you say.
She just hits the target dead center every time with it because it's the right one for her...at this time in her life anyways.

If there is a way you convey your thoughts without calling people ignorant, it would be best I think, cause there are lots of people who love all different calibers for lots of reasons.
Personally, I have always liked bigger, heavier, and slower loads, as opposed to smaller, lighter, faster ones myself, and I know there are loads that have more energy than what I like.
I'll still put my faith in a 45 colt 255 grain keith bullet at 950 fps...I have also seen what bigger and heavier can do to critters.
I love the 45acp too....I don't say it's the "ultimate", but people that have used it in real life situations say it works most the time.
There are exceptions to all things of course....I read where you said you saw where a 12 gage slug did not stop someone...well, I'd say that's an act of GOD and a true exception, cause I've also seen it slam critters that weigh 130 pounds to the ground and watched em slide three feet through the dry leaves from getting hit with it too.

Anyways....have a heart when you give your opinions...and I know the word ignorant is not as bad as stupid, but still...it turns people off a little bit.

Shoot safe...and no hard feelings here, just giving my 2 cents

slink · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2006, 10:26:41 AM »

recoil wise, still doesn't make it worth a hoot. That's .38 and 9x19 for you. Without lots of work at it, such loads are all that 90+ % of shooters can handle, especially women. However, that does not make them worth a hoot.

Do you know the definition of "most"? It simply means "more than half". 51% of the time, a .45 ball load stopping men does not comfort me at all. Nor should it comfort anyone.

It takes considerably more useful amounts of power to get a load up to decent anti-personenell performance. You want at least 90% stops with one CHEST hit (half of the torso is GUTS, and hunters all know that gut hits don't mean a thing).

I've never been at all impressed by the .45 Long Colt in lead bullet format, unless the bullet was a lw hp, driven pretty fast (ie, 1200 fps or so). Who CARRIES one, anyway? If you don't WEAR it, you probably wont HAVE it when it's needed.

The point is, the load has to be readily controlable (ie, .45 ball or less recoil) in the sort of gun people WILL carry, ie, a pocket auto.

When you get up around 600 ft lbs, you DO get that 90% stop ratio, with chest hits, IF the bullet doesn't overpenetrate. 30 carbine ball did ok to 50 yds, with chest hits. It has 900 ft lbs, but wastes 1/3rd or more of its power on overpenetration. With a 6" barrel, a full charge 125 gr 357 Mag jhp has about 600 ft lbs, and it's very effective on deer, hogs, feral dogs. Much more so than .45 ACP 230 gr jhp's (to say nothing of .45 ball).

A 255 gr bullet, at 900 fps, has a 229 recoil factor. .45 ball has 175-195 recoil factor (depending upon the length of the barrel) A 229 factor, with the higher line of recoil of the revolver, means .30 sec or more between repeat hits, instead of the sub .18 second feasible to attain with the right loads in an alloy framed, compact .45. The 40+ oz .45 Colt just isn't going to be ccw'd everywhere that a micro .45 will be, and if you fired that sort of heavy recoiling load in the micro compact alloy framed 1911 (if you could, without blowing it up), the repeat hit speed would be more like .40 second.

In combat, misses and poor hits are the rule, not the exception. So a load that slows down your repeat hit speed is a bad idea. Especially when that load lets coons and chucks run off with chest hits, which I've seen the 255gr lfp .45 Colt load do.

jimster · « **Reply #16 on:** April 22, 2006, 10:45:20 AM »

Is it just me, or are you really hard to get along with?

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** April 22, 2006, 11:02:03 AM »

Slink has been given his FINAL WARNING. Any further posts of the type here and in the one in the Handgun General Discussion Forum about which I sent him a PM will result in the IMMEDIATE END of his membership.

This person has been here before and each time been kicked out. He is the most persistent and obnoxious person to have ever joined us. That he is back most likely means he has now been kicked off all the other sites so has worked his way back here.

His word has no value to him since he gave me his word last time he would not again come here and do this. What he seems to forget is I have the e-mails with his name, phone number and address still in file. Plus his IP Address is logged.

He won't be around much longer as he cannot follow rules. It's not in his nature. His ego is too big.

SoftPoint · « **Reply #18 on:** April 22, 2006, 01:58:44 PM »

OK thanks for all the replies and thanks GrayBeard for your attempt to keep things civil. I am still getting alot of conflicting reports about the results of using the two different bullets weights. I guess there are two different trains of thought that are BOTH correct. Does anyone know of any websites that show pictures of 9mm bullets shot into gellatin or some other test medium. I sure would like to see pictures of how well bullets expanded and how well they penetrated.

ShootnStr8 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 22, 2006, 03:03:29 PM »

Softpoint, perhaps these links will offer what you are looking for:

http://www.ballisticreview.com/9mm.html
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%20Special%20Expansion%20Tests.htm
http://glocktalk.com/sitemap/topic/507875-1.html
http://www.ammoman.com/40_EP_DESC.htm

Blessings!

ShootnStr8

jgalar · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2006, 06:06:38 PM »

There is always a debate going on about heavy/slow and light/fast bullets. Its mostly just entertaining talk. Unless someone actually does tests shooting live people in a laboratory environment one can never know for sure which is best. I seriously doubt that one type of bullet can be proven to be better than the other under all conditions. I think you have to have a little faith in the ammo manufacturer's abilities to produce an effective round.

If your gun will shoot a heavy bullet close enough to the same impact point as a light bullet then load both in your gun. Alternate the two different bullets and you should have the best of both worlds.

Personally I don't worry about it. I shoot a 124 grain hollow point in my 9mms. I figure its all a compromise so I shoot a middle weight.

jeager106 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 22, 2006, 06:43:37 PM »

Quote from: slink

Your "sample" ONLY involved the dead. What about those so hit who lived, hmm? Lethality and stopping power are only SLIGHTLY interrelated. Your sample would be like a convict in prison saying"Everyone gets caught". No KIDDING, the wouldn't BE in prison if they hadn't got caught, but we all know that plenty don't get caught (ever). So an ignorant person "thinks" that the .38 is ok, so what? Millions "think" that the .25 Raven is ok, too. Those who know jack say that the .38 isn't much, because there's so much evidence that it's NOT.

Ahhhh, slink ol' buddy. Most people brained with any handgun round end up quite dead.
What I'm I missing here?
You said under stress shoot for the brain as you won't be able to hit the heart.
That made no sense at all.
If you can't heart shoot a perp what makes you think you can brain a perp under those same conditions?

?
I've seen very few people live that were brained by ANY bullet and even mentioned on unfortunate that died from a BB brainer propelled by a Co2 pistol!
Offhand I remember one suicide attempt that lived.
A temple shot from a Raven .25.
The guy went down and out. The coma lasted weeks.
He lived but was blind, deaf, and lost much of his memory and motor skills.
Cheesh a brainer with anything is most likley to kill and will incapciate instantly.
Do any of you guys know of a person brained by anything who came out o.k.?
If so it's a rare thing indeed.
One fellow I new got shot in the forehead between the eyes point blank with a .38 spl. snubby.
He was in a com for weeks also.
He sure as heck wasn't able to anything after the wound happend exept lay there and bleed.
he 'recovered' if you call it that.
Blind, deaf, and living the hi life of a drooling carrot.
By the way slink.
Where are you getting all these cows you execute? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Old Griz · « **Reply #22 on:** April 22, 2006, 07:39:57 PM »

:cb2: Just wondering . . . and if anyone knows, please respond . . . for how many years did policemen in the U.S. carry .38's?

I know there are better choices out there today, but it seems to me that this "pathetic" round served our nation well for a long time, and it hasn't quite gone away in the private sector either.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2006, 06:11:44 AM »

Well, Old Griz, the S & W M&P or Model Ten has been around in its same basic form since 1898. Most PD's that I worked for carried 38's into the 80's, some even later. With newer, high-tech bullets designs, the 38 and 9mm have become much better stoppers than ever. I've had 45's, I keep a 40 near my bed, and I wear a 38 on duty. But only because I HAVE to. But I've been shooting 38's since the 70's, and have loaded and fired well over a hundred thousand thru my duty and personal guns. And I don't feel undergunned at all. I still believe good tactics and a cool head win more gunfights than any magic bullet. I guess that makes me a dinosaur. So be it. I yam what I yam! Cugugugugugugug!

Papajohn

Heavyhaul · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2006, 01:26:44 PM »

Softpoint, I'll give you my two-cents. I prefer velocity. Wost case with a 115 is that it could hit something and explode. I'm-a-thinkin' that would sting enough to slow me down till you could get another shot. Worst case with a 147, you poke a hole in me and i keep coming and bleed out after I get to you. I'm not saying that the 115 would stop a person in their tracks. Just in my experience, much less than others here, I don't see a rib stopping or fragmenting a 115. It may begin to, but when it enters the rib cage and comes clear apart, the person on the receiving end doesn't have much time. This is also assuming that the shot is taken at "self defensee range". I'm not sure how it happens, but some people seem to lead all of these threads to needing a 500 S&W or a pick-up truck for self defense. I have been know to get pretty upset and "lose it" , as my wife says. But I can't imagine that I could "flip out" far enough that a 9mm to the chest would get my attention. The only time I can imagine that situation is with drugs, not me, then you shoot till they fall. :lol:

papajohn428 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 23, 2006, 03:37:32 PM »

At my last PD we had three shootings with the 9, one with the 147 and two with a hot 115. The 147 was a total failure, the bad guy had to be chased several blocks before he was cornered and quit. The two shootings with the 115 were over right then. All three incidents involved one shot each. Not much of a sample, but enough to convince me that a hot HP is better than a heavier bullet that barely even looked like it was fired. And the Illinois State Police used a smoking hot 100 grain softpoint in the 9 for years with great results. I'm convinced velocity DOES matter, but it's still a trade-off between penetration and expansion. Speer Gold Dots seem (to me) to be the best compromise in most calibers. But bullet technology has made nearly all calibers better than they used to be. As far as bullet designs go, these ARE the good old days!

PJ

257 roberts · « **Reply #26 on:** April 23, 2006, 04:20:06 PM »

I guess I'm a dinosaur too cause I feel comfortable carrying a 9mm or a 38spl( I carried a 38spl for years as a LEO, never felt undergunned) :wink:

SoftPoint · « **Reply #27 on:** April 23, 2006, 05:14:11 PM »

After doing alot of research on the internet, and filtering out all of the manufacturers sales hype, and going on facts of one shot stops from police data, it appears the he 115 grain seems to have the best record for one shot stops. The 147 grain does have it's place for penetration when barriers are in place, i.e. autoglass, wallboard,etc. But I think as an armed citized, using a firearm for personal protection, the chances of needing this type of performance is slim to none. All of this of course is my personal opinion based upon what I have read, and I humbly respect others opinions. It appears that the 124 grain is also a good choice, but it really doesn't shoot good out of my gun. Thanks for all the replies.

williamlayton · « **Reply #28 on:** April 24, 2006, 12:25:49 AM »

Well now, lets see here. Since slink has slinked I think we can objectively agree to have some amount of disagreement and know that all are right and all are wrong.
First a disclosure: I tend to favor heavier bullets which would almost normally mean slower speed, unless we are talking some of the weapons which can provide both.
In this case it is the better choice but I think it is unlikely that the average Joe can adequately handle one of these hand cannons, much less have it on him for long periods.
Scenarios differ, as do people and their dispositions at any given time. This disposition can mean chemical/physcgological make-up at any particular time/size/weight/clothing/determination at the time of the incident.
Another factor or other factors must also be accounted for. Surroundings/penetration/population/defense are things which effect/affect these decisions.
I own and shoot some pretty hot calibers in .38 super, 9X23, .357Sig, 5.7X28, 9MM. They are fun and under certain circumstances are good choices for self defense. This would include clear fields of fire, a need for penetration of some type object between me and the target.
I also own and shoot .380's, .38's which also includes P;s and +P's, and .45 cal. These weapons are deadly but have limitations too penetration, some more or less than, depending on the bullet being shot. They also have some desirable charteristics--limited penetration, distance control and recoil.
Now, if we could only devise some means of determining what we are going to face and the situation then we have the ability to know what we need.
I think that some constraint is needed in this decision and that is why I choose the .45 and .380. they may lack but lacking is not all bad and can be an advantage.
Blessings

camsdaddy · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2006, 02:57:23 AM »

I am wondering the difference in POI in the 115 vs 147. With all things being equal.