Testing slugs in the 11-87...

[doegirl]

Had the opportunity to test 6 different brands of sabot slugs out of my 11-87 with rifled barrel and red dot scope.  Tested them at 25 yds off a benchrest.  Wind was blowing at my back 5-10 mph.  Fired off 5 shots and the closest three compromised   "the group".  All loads were 2 3/4".
1. Remington Buckhammer managed recoil 11/8 oz.  Made some big holes in the paper.  Recoil very light, for a 12 gauge slug.  Could not group, unfortunately.  Looked like the target got sprayed with very large buckshot.
2. Lightfield Hybred Lites 1 1/4 oz.  Why put such a big projectile in a "low" recoil slug?  No matter, This one did not group either 5.5".
3. Winchester Hi-Impact 1oz sabot.  1.5" group.  Recoil quite manageable.
4. Brennke "KO" sabots, 1 oz.  1.25" group. Recoil moderate
5. Winchester Supreme Platinum Tips, 400 grains.  Can you say RECOIL! This round was by far the worst tested.  Two shots didn't even make it on the paper.  My gun certainly does not like these (and neither do I-$$).
6. Hasting Laser Accurate Magnums 1 1/4".  The most impressive "booom" to ever come from a shotgun.  Those slugs made HUGE holes in the paper.  Group 3".
Looks like I'm down to the Winchester High Impact and the Brenneke.  I'll test these two at 75 and 100 yds  and I'll let you all know which one I'll be hunting with next season!

[marylandeer]

The joys of slug testing. I hate shooting a slug gun. This is why I bought a 20 gauge for my newest slug gun. It's a Mossberg 20 Throphy Slugger with the cheek piece on the stock. It shoots pretty good with the 1.5-6 x 32 Simmons Witetail Expedition scope I mounted on it. Allthough it does kick a good bit less than all of my 12 gauges it's still unconfortable to shoot. With the Rem. Buckhammers it just about knocks me unconsious. Funny thing is mine really shoots good with with the Win. high impacts too. I like the fact that these are low recoil, very accurate and cheep but I have heard bad reviews about "on deer performance". It looks like little 30 Cal. holes in the paper.
My preffered slug to hunt with now out of my 20 is the 2 3/4" Rem. copper solid. This slug dosen't shoot quite as well as the Win. but good enough and it knocks the deer down quick they are cheep and recoil is moderate.
Get yourself a box or two of these to try out next time, the'll probaly do good from your Remmy.
I know for sure if you go with the Brenneke they do very well on deer.
I can't wait to try out the new SST slug from Hornady.
Have fun, good luck

[Paul Mohr]

These are going to sound like dumb questions, but I have to ask. Are you sure your barrel is fully rifled? Is it a cantilever barrel, or is the red dot on your reciever? Are you sure everything is tight and the red dot holds zero from shot to shot? Could you be flinching or jerking the trigger when you shoot?

The reason I ask is because these are VERY poor groups for that gun fired at 25 yards off from a bench rest. I read this post this morning before going to work and was thinking maybe you were shooting off hand. After re-reading it now though I see you said it was from a bench. Now if we were talking 75-100 yards I could see these groups from a load the gun didn't like. I have fired smooth bores with rifled slugs that are more accurate than that. I have sighted in two 11-87s for friends and they shot really well. At 25 yards they would pretty much leave one ragged hole regardless of what ammo was used. Both were cantilever mount barrels with scopes though.

Both of the guns liked the winchester superX saboted slugs. If your gun will shoot 3 inch shells don't be afraid to try them as well. Some guns will prefer one over the other.

The platinums do kick hard in some guns, but the pay off is better performance. They have better ballistics and a better performing bullet than traditional saboted slugs. I would not pick a slug based on the recoil factor, especially with an auto. When you are in the field you will not even feel it I promise.

Other than the things mentioned above I don't know what to tell you except keep looking for a better load if you have to. don't shy away from the cheaper rifled slugs either. My H&R Ultra shoots them really well. The down side is you have to really clean the barrel after 4 or 5 shots, and the ballistics are not that impressive compared to a modern sabot. They are easy on the wallet though. If you are only getting 3 inch groups at 25 yards with a non magnified red dot I would not expect any miracles to happen at 75-100 yards. 3-4 inches is my limit at 100 yards, let alone 25 yards. Really depends on how far you plan on shooting though.

Maybe JCC will chime in and can give you some tips about shooting a slug gun from a bench. Some say  you have to use slightly different form to be accurate. I have never had this be the case, but it might work for you. It would certainly be worth a try. He has fired a TON of slugs thru his various slug guns. I'm curious to see what his opinion of your outing is.

Paul

[jcchartboy]

Well... Paul must have known I was right behind! Unfortunately, I think Paul pretty much summed it up. I would have a hard time accepting your results as repeatable in the future. There is really no reason why you should have such poor performance with so many different slugs at that range.

While every gun is different I will say just for reference that virtually every slug I have ever shot out of my Savage 210 has grouped less than 5in at 50yds. The only reason I mention this is simply because I have literally shot just about every slug on the market out of the gun. Even when a gun does not shoot a specific slug particularly well...it should not really be that bad.

Before we go any further...let us know your thoughts...

JC

[doegirl]

Paul: It's a fully rifled cantilever barrel. Yes, the scope is on tight.  
As for not accepting the groups, I don't believe that's gonna happen.  I'm not about to shoot up another $70 in slugs just so I can try for  tighter groups.  Certainly quite a bit of the "openess" of some groups was due to user error. I almost did not include the Platinum Tips in the post because I know I started flinching after about the second shot.  But,  I could have achieved a ragged hole group with Platinum Tips and I still wouldn't use 'em-not with that kind of recoil.  Not all the groups where horrendous-2  brands were at 1.25" and 1.5" .  I'll let you all know what 75yds produces.
Marylandeer, I hear you about recoil!  Took me two seperate days on the range to finish testing.  I would start flinching and would have to stop.  I just got .45 caliber muzzleloader and it is soooo much nicer to shoot.  I'm thinking the slug gun will be used for drives, while the smokepole will be with me stand hunting.

[marylandeer]

I'm with you on that. I have a Knight Disc Elite with a Mueller 2-7x32 mutishot scope. You talk about sweet shooting, I will use it over any of my slug guns if at all possible. I only use a shotgun when it's all that is allowed. Heck your doing fine with those 1-2" groups. It don't sound like your trying to do any long range slug hunting. I had a Bushnell red dot on one of my slug guns and I couldn't hit a dag on thing with it. But when I mounted a regular scope I started getting groups. I just can't use the red dots.

[doegirl]

I'm with you on that. I have a Knight Disc Elite with a Mueller 2-7x32 mutishot scope. You talk about sweet shooting, I will use it over any of my slug guns if at all possible. I only use a shotgun when it's all that is allowed. Heck your doing fine with those 1-2" groups. It don't sound like your trying to do any long range slug hunting. I had a Bushnell red dot on one of my slug guns and I couldn't hit a dag on thing with it. But when I mounted a regular scope I started getting groups. I just can't use the red dots.

A long range shot, to me, with a shotgun, is about 100yds.  There are those whose skill and equipment allows them to smoke'em out to 150 yds and even a little beyond.  But, that's a specialists game.  I'm thinking 75yds max and 100yds under perfect conditions with a rest.  But, time will tell.  I've got 6months to figure it out.

[Paul Mohr]

Well I'm glad you had a few choices that were pretty decent. I wish you would have mentioned that to begin with :wink: . I think most of us were thinking there was something wrong with gun, or you were having target panic problems.

I would pick the slugs that gave you the best groups and go back and try again. Just remember to take your time and go easy. Make sure you let the barrel have time to cool as well. As far as recoil, it can be managed, especially from a bench. Get a better recoil pad for starters. They make replacement ones and slip on ones. They also make shooting clothes with them built in, but you could just put something between the gun and your shoulder if you really wanted. Also adding weight to the gun helps. The even make recoil reducers that go in the stock. And if worst comes to worst get the barrel ported. It makes it louder, but it works pretty well. My mossberg was ported and I liked it. It wasn't as loud as a high powered rifle with a break or anything. A heavier rest helps some too.

Another thing is to not fight the recoil. Especially if you are little. Just let your body roll with the recoil when you fire, don't push into the butt and try to hold it there. Stay relaxed and let the gun move you. This is why drunk people tend to get hurt less in accidents, they are more relaxed. I am a little guy (120 lbs/63 inches) and I don't have a problem with most rifles or shotguns including 3 1/2 inch turkey loads. If you think your auto with 2 3/4 inch slugs kicks, try a light pump with a full turkey load! Darn near nocks me down when I pull the trigger. However if you do it right it doesn't hurt that bad. And good aftermarket recoil pads really do work, they are much better than the stock ones on most rifles.

Also having a gun that fits you helps as well. If this shotgun is just too much for you and it doesn't fit you will you might consider trading it for a 20 ga in something that fits you better. It makes a big difference trust me.

My muzzle loader with 100 grns of powder and a 350 bullet kicks about as hard as my slug gun does. They are both fairly heavy guns though.

You don't have to shoot your gun to test loads either. If you get tired, sore or just can't hold steady con some big strapping guy into helping you out :wink: . Guys are gullable like that. You really only need to shoot it for the final sight in. Checking the gun for groups anyone can do for you as long as they shoot well enough. Just make sure the sights are set for you when you are done.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. I wouldn't expect stellar results with red dot at longer distances, but it should be Minute Of Deer  :-) . I would be happy with 5 inch groups at 100 yards with non magnified sights. If you can get them smaller even better yet.  Most that talk about really good groups with a slug gun are using at least a 4X scope and have some bench experience.

Are you the same doegirl from Eders? If so, Hi, nice to hear from you again and see you on other sites.

Paul

[doegirl]

Paul-yes, one and the same Doegirl from Eders .  Have not been to that site in a million years.  Switched from compound to using a crossbow, just not much to talk about over there.  Never shot a 3 1/2 turkey load, but my old slug gun was an 870 express, and I did shoot 3" slugs out of it until it "knocked" some sense into me. :-D   Gave that gun away to a friend who now uses it for home defense.  If I can help it, I'll be using the muzzleloader as much as possible.

[Paul Mohr]

If you haven't done it yet check out Hunting.net, they have a dedicated crossbow forum you might enjoy.

I go to Eders every day or so, but it doesn't get much traffic. I check about 5 forums regularly every day though.

Let us know what happens when you are done.

Paul

[daddywpb]

I tried every brand of slug I could get my hands on in my 11/87. Some grouped ok, some could not stay on paper at 50 yards. The winner by a long shot (1.5" groups at 50 yards with iron sights) was the 2 3/4" Remington Copper Solid load. It shoots great and recoil is controlable.  I was glad that the best shooting load didn't turn out to be 3". Too much recoil for me. I just put a scope on it, so I'll be moving back to 100 yards next weekend.

[jcchartboy]

I was glad that the best shooting load didn't turn out to be 3".

I have yet to see the 3" loads from any manufacturer be the best any gun in terms of accuracy. Not to mention that the 3" shells virtually never have better ballistics than competiting 2-3/4 shells from other manufacturers. (regarding 12ga ammo)

[Paul Mohr]

I have two friends, one has an 870 the other has an 11-87 both with cantilever barrels from remington. Both shoot excellent (under 2 inches at 100 yards) with the regular 3 inch winchester sabots. One day they got some 2 3/4 shells because that is all the local store had and they figured they wouldn't be much different. About 3 inch groups out of the pump and 5 inch groups out of the auto. You really need to try them all to see what your gun likes the best.

I found for me it really doesn't matter that they are 3 inch or 2 3/4, seems like the same recoil to me regardless. You really have to look and see how they loaded. Certainly not enough that I would shoot a less accurate load. Like JCC said, if they have simular ballistics, then the reciol will be simular as well if shot out of the same gun. That is how it effects me anyway. Recoil seems to effect different people in different ways.

Paul

[jcchartboy]

I have two friends, one has an 870 the other has an 11-87 both with cantilever barrels from Remington. Both shoot excellent (under 2 inches at 100 yards) with the regular 3 inch Winchester sabots. One day they got some 2 3/4 shells because that is all the local store had and they figured they wouldn't be much different. About 3 inch groups out of the pump and 5 inch groups out of the auto. You really need to try them all to see what your gun likes the best.

Paul

I may :lol: stand corrected...Thx Paul.

My two questions here would be...

1). Along my original lines of thought...are there any 2-3/4" shells from other manufacturers that shoot better that the 3" Win's. (Seems the Copper Solids that DADDY mentioned above, in the same gun, are a likely candidate. Also have they tried the 2 3/4 Core Lokt Ultra's...)

2). These actions are not dedicated slug guns...is it possible that their inherent designs make them inaccurate with a 2-3/4" shell?

[daddywpb]

I found for me it really doesn't matter that they are 3 inch or 2 3/4, seems like the same recoil to me regardless.

What kind of gun do you have? Gotta get me one of those. :grin:

[jcchartboy]

I found for me it really doesn't matter that they are 3 inch or 2 3/4, seems like the same recoil to me regardless.

What kind of gun do you have? Gotta get me one of those. :grin:

I was going to leave that one alone..

[Paul Mohr]

I own an H&R ultra that is pretty heavy, but I am talking about any gun I have shot. From lighter single shots, bolt actions, pumps and autos. The amount of recoil is dependant on the load, not the length of the shell. Some 2 3/4 inch shells kick harder than a 3 inch depending on how they are loaded. Winchester platinums would be a good example. And I didn't mean to imply that some 3 inch shells do not kick harder than the 2 3/4 inch shells do. Just that I don't think the difference is big enough to worry about, especially in the field.


Then again I don't think slugs kick that hard compared to other things. I have shot high energy pheasant loads that kick harder than some slugs do, and turkey loads do not even compare. My muzzle loader with 100 grns kicks about as hard as some slug guns do.

I have never understood it when I hear 200 lb guys whining about recoil when I am 100 lbs and don't have any trouble with it? Must be a personal thing I guess. Then the same guy goes and buys a 3 1/2 inch turkey gun or 300 win mag? Those are so much more pleasant to shoot than a slug gun right.

As far as if my buddies guns shoot well with other rounds, I'm nost sure. They didn't try every brand of slug on the market. They stopped when they found something that worked and was easy to get where we live. They are a bit old school. I'm suprised they forked over the money for rifled barrels to be honest. They are not as anal as we are.

 However if you are going to compare a 3 inch shell with a 2 3/4 inch shell wouldn't it make sense to do it with something that used the same load and the only difference was the length of the shell? My point was some guns are pretty picky and you need to try different things to find something youl like.

Accuracy in my gun seems to depend on the speed and size of the bullet. It doesn't like light fast bullets too much.

Paul

[jcchartboy]

However if you are going to compare a 3 inch shell with a 2 3/4 inch shell wouldn't it make sense to do it with something that used the same load and the only difference was the length of the shell?

IMHO....Absolutely not.

All I am concerned with is two factors, accuracy, and ballistics. I could care less whether it comes in a 2-3/4" shell or a 3" shell. However, as a general rule 3" shells virtually always have more recoil than a 2-3/4" shell from the same manufacturer. That being said if I can get better accuracy and ballistics out of the 2-3/4" why would I want a 3" shell and have to deal with the extra recoil?

Just to make the example clearer, I shoot the Remington Core Lokts in 2-3/4. They are the most accurate slugs and provide the best ballistics I can find for my gun. (even better than any other 3' shells from any competiting manufacturers).  Would I shoot the 3" remington core lokts if they provided better accuracy and ballistics? Of course! But you know what...they don't make one. Why not? I can't say for sure...but based on my experience with every other manufacturers 3" shells I can guess why...Most likely they would be less accurate, have no ballistics advantage, and create more recoil!!

[Paul Mohr]

I understand what you are saying. However to make a blanket statement that all 2 3/4 inch shells are more accurate and kick less than 3 inch shells is probably false. It really depends on what your gun likes and how the shell is loaded. There are some 2 3/4 inch rounds that kick harder than some 3 inch loads, hence the equal or better ballistics. Take the winchesters for instance. They offer a 2 3/4 inch shell with a 1 oz. slug that is actually faster than one of their 3 inch 1 oz offerings. I don't believe a projectile that weighs the same moving faster is going to have less recoil, no matter what size the shell was that fired it. And then when you get into the modern slugs that shoot a bullet almost 1 oz in weight at speeds beyond 1700 fps I'm sure they don't recoil any less either. The fact that one shell is a .25 inches shorter really doesn't mean anything.

For some the price difference and slight accuracy difference isn't worth it. Some of these rounds there is a 5 dollar difference between shells. For maybe a half inch better groups at 100 yards. For you and me that sounds apealing, for others good enough is good enough, especially if it costs less. And then factor in that in my area a 100 yard shot is fairly rare, it is a what if kind of thing. Most shots will be around 70 yards or in.

I will agree with you that most slug guns probably shoot better with 2 3/4 inch rounds, especially with the newer type rounds. They don't seem to like the light fast bullets unless you have a faster twist rate. Which in my opinion is why the 20 gauges shoot them better. However like I said, I have seen it go the other way around as well. Like above, using he same round but one in a 3 inch and one in a 2 3/4 inch 3 guns liked the 3 inch better than the 2 3/4 (mine liked them better as well). I wouldn't just rule them all out right off the bat. You might find your gun likes them.

Like I said I do understand what you are saying and agree. My friends could most likely find a modern slug in 2 3/4 inches that was just as good or maybe a bit better. And have a better bullet design as well. They don't want to mess with it though since what they have is plenty accurate and they have had good success with it. Personally if I had to choose between a typical lead slug in a 3 inch shell and a modern XTP type slug in a 2 3/4 inch shell (which is faster most likely) I would pick the newer version with the better bullet design and better ballistics.

I did shoot some whinchester platinums out of my buddies 870. They were alright, but not really more accurate than the 3 inch super X's. And I can assure you they didn't have less recoil. However they were faster and had better ballistics. I didn't really notice a big difference between the 3 inch and 2 3/4 inch versions in recoil either in his gun. Then again there was only a 50 fps difference from one shell to the other with the same wheight slug.

I do want to point out that these are only my opinions. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. Or saying what I say is absolute fact and that is that. It might seem like JCC and I are arguing, but we are not. We do this on other boards as well. I am just offering a different opinion is all.

Paul

[jcchartboy]

I do want to point out that these are only my opinions. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. Or saying what I say is absolute fact and that is that. It might seem like JCC and I are arguing, but we are not. We do this on other boards as well. I am just offering a different opinion is all.

Paul

Thanks for everything...again, Paul :lol:

You make a great point here, while others might view these posts as adveserial I think it is important to occasionally stop and point out the fact that is exactly how both of us have learned alot of what we know about slugs and slug shooting. :wink:

On that note...I will take a step back here and hopefully let this post return in the direction of the original post

JC