Will a 1 in 48 twist shoot a patched round

[Swamp Yankee]

Well I saw this thread on another forum and it generated a number of different opinions so I thought I'd start it here. From my experience; I have found the 1 in 48 twist to be very accurate. I have owned a number of 1 in 48"s and 1 in 66's and have never found a difference in accuracy between them. All have been Thompson Centers and all have been "Shooters"
   So guys what do you think?  Jim

[Keith Lewis]

Almost any muzzleloader will shoot patched round ball; the big difference is how hot the load can be. The slower twist barrels will shoot a lot hotter load with the patched ball without the ball skipping the rifleing. The faster twist barrels must be down loaded enough to prevent this.

[roundball]

Well I saw this thread on another forum and it generated a number of different opinions so I thought I'd start it here. From my experience; I have found the 1 in 48 twist to be very accurate. I have owned a number of 1 in 48"s and 1 in 66's and have never found a difference in accuracy between them. All have been Thompson Centers and all have been "Shooters"
   So guys what do you think?  Jim

There is not enough difference in accuracy between 1:66" TC RB barrels and 1:48" barrels to have a discussion about, and 1:48" do not have to be loaded down, nor do 1:48" cause PRBs to skip rifling;

I have a houseful of TC Hawkens in .45/.50/.54/ calibers, with both 1:66" and 1:48" barrels, both percussion and Flintlock, and have personally run side by side tests at my range, one caliber per Saturday, with each and every condition being identical.

I used the same full power 1:66" deer hunting loads in my 1:48".
90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke wonderwad
.018" TC prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady .440/.490/.530 balls

My 1:48" x 100yd bench groups were from 1+7/8" to 2+3/4".
Both twists shoot better than 99.99% of people can shoot at 100 yds with open sights.

[Shorty]

Roundball,
I see that you use .018" patching.  That's a pretty tight loading, is it not?  Do you suppose that, if you used a thinner patch that loaded "easier", the 48" twist might show a difference?  I can load my 66" twist (50 cal/.490 ball) with a very tight patch, for target shooting, or a slip-fit patch for fast (hunting) loading with little difference in accuracy.

[roundball]

Roundball,
I see that you use .018" patching.  That's a pretty tight loading, is it not?  Do you suppose that, if you used a thinner patch that loaded "easier", the 48" twist might show a difference?  I can load my 66" twist (50 cal/.490 ball) with a very tight patch, for target shooting, or a slip-fit patch for fast (hunting) loading with little difference in accuracy.

Yes, .018" is snug...I believe tighter is more accurate and I do use a short starter with my hunting loads, either a separate short starter, or the built-in short starter in TC's 4-N-1 pocket reloaders...thinner patches would probably still work pretty well with full power loads as long as prelubed wonderwads are used as a firewall, but the .018" have always given me better groups.

And over the years, I've found that fast followup 2nd shots are actually not necessary when deer hunting and usually not even possible...he's either down in sight of the stand and no 2nd shot is necessary...or, he's bolted past some brush/trees out of sight and a 2nd shot wouldn't be possible no matter how fast someone tries to reload...IMO, "speedloaders" are really just convenient pocket reloaders and TC 4-N-1 with their built in short starter are the best I've ever seen/tried.

Overpowder wads like Oxyoke Wonderwads acting as a firewall, along with a good snug patch/ball combo has always given me the best accuracy & smallest groups with full power hunting loads, regardless of twist.

I do use Oxyoke or TC prelubed .015" patches at the range on weekends with light 50grn target loads...they work fine for that, and I was able to buy a couple thousand at a steal price on an auction last year

[Gun Runner]

Nothing to do with the bbl twist of B/P rifles, but for cheap patches this is what I'am getting ready to do.I normally use a .010 patch (shoot a lyman 50 and 54 cal) Went into the fabric store with my calipers and checked the thickness of the material I want. Got a yard of it. Friend of mine does upholstry work and he has several diffrent round cutters that he uses for cutting material for button covers. He's just getting started in B/P shooting and we found that the 2 in circle cutter was just the right size for cutting patches. He said he would cut strips just a little larger than 2 in and fold them over bck and forth nd he can cut them all at once. Figger it woundent take long to cut a lifetime supply of patches, and can lube a bunch at a time, put them in plastic baggies for storage. Nice thing is he has an extra press he said I could have, all I would need to do is buy the cutter. Hope this helps somebody.

Gun Runner

[lostid]

I used the same full power 1:66" deer hunting loads in my 1:48".My 1:48" x 100yd bench groups were from 1+7/8" to 2+3/4".
Both twists shoot better than 99.99% of people can shoot at 100 yds with open sights.

"piffle".

[Scott T]

Of course it will, but not with the wrong patch.  My TC flinter has a 1-48 as does my TC Big Bore.  Both get fed  nothing but patched round balls and I have no complaints.

[harryo]

There is not enough difference in accuracy between 1:66" TC RB barrels and 1:48" barrels to have a discussion about, and 1:48" do not have to be loaded down, nor do 1:48" cause PRBs to skip rifling;

I have a houseful of TC Hawkens in .45/.50/.54/ calibers, with both 1:66" and 1:48" barrels, both percussion and Flintlock, and have personally run side by side tests at my range, one caliber per Saturday, with each and every condition being identical.

I used the same full power 1:66" deer hunting loads in my 1:48".
90grns Goex 3F
Oxyoke wonderwad
.018" TC prelubed pillow ticking
Hornady .440/.490/.530 balls

My 1:48" x 100yd bench groups were from 1+7/8" to 2+3/4".
Both twists shoot better than 99.99% of people can shoot at 100 yds with open sights.

And I have a a .54cal and a .50cal T/C Renegade,  with 1:48" twist barrels, that willl not shoot roundball any where near as accurately as rifles I have in the same calibers, with 1:60" or 1:70" twist barrels.  I use .005" undersized roundballs and .018" ticking patches in them and it is an extremely tight fit.  They just do not shoot roundballs well, with any kind of load, although they will shoot several conicals quite accurately.  The only way to get them to shoot roundball in anything that even looks like a group is to load very light powder loads(<50 grns Ffg) and even then they will not come close to the performance of my slow twist barrels, which will shoot very tight groups with a large range of powder charges.

[lostid]

I have a a .54cal and a .50cal, with 1:48" twist barrels, that willl not shoot roundball any where near as accurately as rifles I have in the same calibers, with 1:60" or 1:70" twist barrels.[insert;read above], they will not come close to the performance of my slow twist barrels, which will shoot very tight groups with a large range of powder charges.

 Now that's the truth! .

[lostid]

I shoot with other people.(Alot!) I travel 200 miles just ta set camp and shoot with others that travel 200 miles the other way to shoot with me. We shoot for fun,,we shoot too hunt,,we shoot in compition, for money and prizes 5-6 tymes each year,(just fer fun).
 I ben shootin bp guns fer 20 years. an I ain't never seen a slow twist shoot gun shoot a hot load,, the same as same,,middlin twist shoot the same hot load. :shock:  that i ain't seen.
 Middlin twist does shoot good, i've done that. I've taken 1st witn 1:48 a tyme er two..but fer round ball, don't let nobody kidd ya,,,,,,,the loads are not the same! :evil:  :evil:

[Naphtali]

Apparently, round balls are forgiving of TOO RAPID rifling. Having written that, if you are buying a barrel off the shelf, specifically for RBs, the slowest rate of twist available is the way to go.

However, if you are having a barrel built to your specifications, don't guess about rate of twist.

Circa 1879, Alfred Greenhill created a formula for computing rate of twist. Two caveats: it was intended for artillery projectiles; and it works best when projectile's muzzle velocity is not higher than 1600 ft/sec.

The formula, however, works well enough for higher velocities that calculation is acceptable for any commercial smokeless powder rifle round.

Okay, to the formula. This version is slightly less accurate than the version that calculates into calibers of length, but it is much simpler to use.

    Twist = 150 x (DxD)/L
(couldn't create superscript to square D)

    Where:
    D = bullet diameter in inches
    L= bullet length in inches
    150 = a constant

What you will find is that smaller bore IDs require quicker/steeper rates of twist than shoulder breakers. For example, a .50-caliber RB barrel's optimal rate of twist is: (.50 inch RB) 1:75 inches; (.49 inch RB) 1:73.5 inches. So .50-caliber barrels having 1:72 inches are nearly perfect for shooting RBs with as much powder as you safely want to use. However, my .65-caliber RB barrels have 1:96 inches.
***Pontification below***
I've always believed that one of the reasons for patched RBs using/needing grooves as deep as .010-.012 inch is that rifling was too steep for the RB. This would cause the patched RB to strip the rifling and be inaccurate. To compensate, cut deeper grooves to "better grab patch-and-RB."

Is my conclusion accurate? Dunno. But, to my ears, it sounds like it should be. If I ever become wealthy, I'll test.

[captchee]

i agree with roundball. nothing wrong with the 1 in 48 . In fact many  original plains rifles were 1 in 48  and very capable. This includes   later rifle as i understand it ,made by the hawken brothers .
 What does make a difference is the type of rifling , depth of rifling  and even  how clean the rifling is cut  .
 The idea that a person needs a 100 + grain load to kill paper LMAO is well ,,, well frankly questionable .

 Think about it what difference does it make if you use a 50 grain load to poke holes in paper  as long as those holes are  touching . A hole in the 10X is a hole  no mater made with 10 grains or 300,. Its still a 10X

 Now hunting , that’s a different story  where the “truth “is whats  in the freezer and on the wall ,not whats
 On some other persons paper . Round ball if persuaded can  prove  the accuracy of  what he is say  hands down

  One of my long rifles has a hand made iron barrel  of 1 in 70 twist  and round bottom rifling.
 It will not shoot a group for nothing with less then  80 grains of 2F . That load mind you has taken many  big game the size of elk through the years just fine .
 As a side note, it will also hold a 10 inch  pattern with a 436 grain hollow base conical  "drawn f by the barrel maker  " off hand at 100 yards  and that’s what I use when in bull elk only hunts .

 that’s also the same load “ 80 grains 2F and PRB”,I use on the trail walks  or  the “ #$%^py” paper designed for old men to shoot because they cant walk the trail  LMAO .
 That has nothing to do with the twist , just what’s the most accurate  load  
  Every  barrel is different  even among like weapons . What works for one , may not work for another .

 don’t be so quick to judge  for you just may find yourself lacking
And that  fellow’s ,is the  bear bone truth.

[Swamp Yankee]

Well can't say that I've ever fired maximum loads out of any of my muzzleloaders. I usually shoot 70-80 grains out of my 54 and 60-70 out of my 50's. I mostly shoot ff [because I have a surplus] but will reduce it some with fff. I still maintain that I find no difference between my 1 in 48 and 1 in 66 twists as far as accuracy goes. Maybe if I could shoot to the full potential of my rifles I might see some difference......but that ain't going to happen!
All in all the the 1 in 48 twist make for one fine shooting rifle...Jim