Too hot for regular contender?

[dubber123]

I just shot my latest loads out of my 6 1/2" 50-70 contender.  The load is 25 grains of 2400 with a mag pistol primer and a 500 grain cast bullet.  At 24 grains recoil was heavy, but the load still looked mild.  At 25 grains it still looks mild case/extraction/primer wise, but recoil is getting really heavy.  My biggest concern is that after 3 rounds, I saw a fresh hammer mark on my wooden factory grips.  Could this load possibly be hot enough to cause the hammer to rebound that hard?  The mark definately was not there before this.  Any thoughts?  Thanks.

[Blammer]

put a piece of masking tape there and shoot it again!

[rickyp]

case/extraction/primer wise

These are not alway a reliable sing of too high of pressure. some times you may not get any warnings at all until things let loose. The only way I can see a contender pushing the hammer back from too high pressure is the frame bending back and pushing it. there is just no way for the case to push the little firing pin far enough back to make the hammer hit the grip a lot more bad things would have happened as well.

one of the best ways to work up a load with any barrel if you have a crony is to take your loading equipment to the range and work up the loads there. increase your powder charge (as long as it is safe) until you are adding powder and not getting any more speed from the round. anything past this point you are just burning more powder and increasing recoil with no gain.

[Lone Star]

one of the best ways to work up a load with any barrel if you have a crony is to take your loading equipment to the range and work up the loads there. increase your powder charge (as long as it is safe) until you are adding powder and not getting any more speed from the round. anything past this point you are just burning more powder and increasing recoil with no gain.

This is based on an old wive's tale which can get you into trouble very easily.  Hornady put this issue to rest decades ago when they published how they developed their reloading manual data.  They load each bullet in two-round batches, increasing the charge until after they saw pressure signs.  Looking at their velocity vs charge weight data, it is very clear that they continued to get proportional velocity/charge increases until well beyond safe pressures.  Anyone who develops loads by waiting for the velocity/charge ratio to change is taking a huge risk.

The use of the .50-70 in the Contender is risky in itself, particularly when developing data yourself.  I did it some years ago with my SSK barel, but JD warned me to be very very careful, because the large case diameter puts lots of stress on the action and it is too easy to go from safe to over-pressure with a small change in charge weight. I do not think that the hammer mark is related to pressure at all, but if you ever experience any slight resistance to opening the action as charge weight increases, back off immediately.  The .50-70 is well suited to short barrels, but don't get greedy as far as power is concerned.  

[rickyp]

increase your powder charge (as long as it is safe) until you are adding powder and not getting any more speed is what I put.
I am well aware that you can exceed the safe pressures doing this, that is why I put in as long as it is safe! I would have put in stay with in the guidlines of a good manual but we all know that pressure can be high while we are still in the listed data.

Did Hornady use a pressure barrel or a real life barrel?
was it a rifle barrel, revolver barrel or single shot barrel?

A short barrel will only burn so much powder

[Lone Star]

I did not mean to offend by any means.  "Anyone who develops loads by waiting for the velocity/charge ratio to change is taking a huge risk." is what I wrote.  I am aware that you did not recommend this action unilaterally, but unfortunately many here do not read Internet posts very carefully.  I was simply making sure that no one misinterpreted your post.  Surely as a GB moderator you can't object to some added safety?

While most folks may not know this, virtually none of the maximum loads shown in the Hornady manuals have ever been tested.  All their data is developed graphically, in the method I described.  This method is far easier and less expensive than testing every single load (Speer and Nosler do that).  Your question as to what barrels they used - they used all kinds - short, long, pressure, factory - whatever they use for every cartridge.  

As to the statement that a short barrel will only burn so much powder - I guess so, but how much is "so much"?  A 15" Encore barrel chambered in 7mm Magnum will give higher velocities than the same length in 7-08; clearly the 7mm Mag does not hold too much powder for the short barrel to use.  A 10" revolver barrel in .444 Marlin will give higher velocities than the same in .44 Magnum.  Short barrels will burn a lot more powder than many folks seem to think - silhouette shooters found that out thirty years ago.  

[Redhawk1]

I just shot my latest loads out of my 6 1/2" 50-70 contender.  The load is 25 grains of 2400 with a mag pistol primer and a 500 grain cast bullet.  At 24 grains recoil was heavy, but the load still looked mild.  At 25 grains it still looks mild case/extraction/primer wise, but recoil is getting really heavy.  My biggest concern is that after 3 rounds, I saw a fresh hammer mark on my wooden factory grips.  Could this load possibly be hot enough to cause the hammer to rebound that hard?  The mark definately was not there before this.  Any thoughts?  Thanks.

Have you considered using black powder in the cartridge?

[dubber123]

I think I may have figured this out.  One of the cases I fired had a weird primer indent that ran from the center right off the primer pocket.  I was shooting from a weird position, and think I either had the action partially unlocked, or the trigger guard hit something at the moment of firing.  I think this smacked the pin back with enough force to rebound the hammer.  I did the tape thing as Blammer suggested, and kept my hands off the trigger guard.  No new marks, and as I suspected these 500 grainers are right at 900 fps.  I think the load is safe, but the grip design and light weight make it a little uncomfortable to shoot.  I really wanted a 450 grainer at 850fps.or so anyways.  If I can just find a mold maker that is operating.  LBT is out of commission, and so is Mountain Molds.  My timing, as usual, is impeccable.  Thanks for all the suggestions, you are all a real asset.  I will keep you posted.

[dubber123]

Redhawk1, sorry, with my ramblings in my last post I never had a chance to respond to your black powder suggestion.  While I never personally considered it, it has been suggested to me.  I haven't had much for experience with BP, and what I have wasn't all that pleasurable.  Tried the soap and water cleanup thing on a Sharps replica, and scrubbed for 45 minutes.  A week later I took it out to shoot and a dry patch got  a ton more black stuff out.  Luckily I had heavily oiled the bore.  I friend of mine is a great shot, and a dedicated BP cartridge guy, and my 600$ Pedersoli regularly out shoots his C. Sharps and Shilo Sharps.  I may have an exceptional Pedersoli, but I think it's the black powder.  Also I can load 100 smokeless in the time it takes him to carefully craft 25 BP rounds.  I am not bashing BP, I think it's great fun, and appreciate the dedication these guys show, but I don't think it's for me.  Thanks

[Lone Star]

As far as I know Veral will be back making molds, at least on a limited basis, in July.   I have a bunch of LBT moulds from before the trouble and they are outstanding.  See below:

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/lbt/index.htm


.

[dubber123]

I believe they are quoting early June or July as the time of Verals return.  I have only one of his molds, a 440 gr WFN. in .475 caliber that is without a doubt my finest mold.  Dead round, casts perfect almost every pour, and drops almost too easy.  Oh, and it has shot the smallest group to date out of my F/A revolver.  I REALLY want a LBT for this 50-70, but man, I want one YESTERDAY!   I guess I'll have to wait.  It'll probably be worth it, as this thing is shooting .6's @ 35 yds. with of all things a Lee mold!  Thanks for answering all my questions.

[HHI-7420]

dubber123, check your grip bolt for straightness or cracks. I've had one to bend and just had one(both for Pac grips) replaced free of charge by Uncle Mikes because it snapped in two. I believe both hooked the sand bag at firing(they were set up for swivels). Quite a suprise when my continder fell in two upon trying to open the action. By the way, these were 375win and 358jdj loads-not hot at all. It can happen.  Pat :oops:

[dubber123]

HHI 7420, I just swapped my grips around, and both bolts look fine, I really think I managed to fire a round with the action partially unlocked.  I have been shooting it almost daily, and haven't been able to reproduce the problem.  Your broken bolt sounds like that would have been an eye opener though!