Author Topic: HELP!!! What's a good .223 for $1000? (Read 1207 times)

pelagic1 · « **on:** May 05, 2006, 07:34:38 AM »

I'm moving up from .22 rimfire, and hope for some advice... My budget is $1000 tops. Seems everyone recommends .223 as a good caliber, but which gun? I thought I had my heart set on a Mini 14, but then I saw some really negative posts on them (along with good ones) that got me thinking. Now I'm completely bewildered. Bushmaster? AR15? Heavy sigh... I'm planning on using it for some coyote and such. Also, at this time I don't want to get a new rifle and be faced with necessary upgrades, though in the future that isn't out of the question. Thanks to all.

nomosendero · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2006, 05:29:26 PM »

Does this $1,000.00 include scope, rings, etc. or is it for the gun only?

jrhen · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2006, 05:39:58 PM »

AR-15 style, my wallet voted DPMS flat top

Bolt action, CZ 527 varmit or a Savage 12BVSS, if you shop well you should have enough left over for a nice 4x12

DAD · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2006, 05:53:54 PM »

Well my thoughts are for a Savage. I have the model 14 in 308 and it shoots 1/2 groups with Remington core locks[150gr] at 100yards and MOA out to 300yards. I just put a savage model 11GNS in lay away in 223. Only because I have had two other Savages a they both shoot MOA out to 300yards. I would expect the 223 to do much better at 300 than a 3" group. The 223 has the accu-triger for adjustment. My 308 doesn't have the accu-trigger.

pelagic1 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 08, 2006, 05:18:15 AM »

Thanks guys, off to read up on the Savage's. Don't know much about them... The $1000 is a total figure, btw. Upon cursory glance, it appears the Savage's fit my budget quite well, and would allow some accessories too.

nasem · « **Reply #5 on:** May 08, 2006, 06:42:12 AM »

.223 is a "fun as hell" round. I would not get it in a bolt action (all that cocking and bolt work makes me... bored).

Get a bushmaster or DPMS in 20", flat top (or A3). I have a bushy in 20" and I can easily get 1" groups @ 100 using the cheapest bullets in the market (wolf 55 gr FMJ, 13 cents a pop)..... Did I say loading up the mag with 30 rounds and blasting them one after the other is ADDICTIVE AS HELL lol.

I got mine topped off with a $130 Millet Gold Buck 4-16X44. I could not get a better set up. The bushmaster will cost you around 800-850, scope and whatnot around 150, thats just around the $1000 range and you will have one of the most accurate .223 guns in the market today.

Just for the record, people say bolt guns are more accurate than semi autos, and for the most part its true, but nothing can compare to the accuracy of an ar-15 in 223. They are ACCURATE AS HELL.

One more thing, do not get a mini-14, they are good guns but don't give good accuracy. If you want something that will group like a mini-14 and cost a crap load less, get a romanian ak-47 for around $280 in 7.62X39, not accurate, but makes alot of sound and fun when you plink.

Brithunter · « **Reply #6 on:** May 08, 2006, 10:20:35 AM »

Hmm well if the AR15 is soooooooooooooooo accurate then why are they not seen at Benchrest matches?

nasem · « **Reply #7 on:** May 08, 2006, 10:37:21 AM »

Quote from: Brithunter

Hmm well if the AR15 is soooooooooooooooo accurate then why are they not seen at Benchrest matches?

There are some people that I personally know who use them for 600 yard matches. Of course theirs aren't like mine, they have much custome work done to em, but the idea is, they are used in competitions.

pelagic1 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 08, 2006, 11:28:49 AM »

Another one against the Mini... Hmmm. I'm so confused :-D What's a "flattop" or A3?

nasem · « **Reply #9 on:** May 08, 2006, 11:58:50 AM »

You know how all ar-15s have that little carrying handle right above the reciever

Well an A2 means that carrying handle is permanantly attached to the gun (which means if you want a scoupe mounted on your gun, you have to put it on top of the "carrying" handle)

An A3 means, that carrying handle is removable (its got 2 large screwes that you can unscrew them with your fingers and remove the carrying handle) and turns your rifle to a "flat top".

What I did was, I bought my bushmaster A3, took the carrying handle off, its easily sellable for $65 on gunbroker lol (they are worth around $100+).

here is a picture of a A3:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa3s20.asp

pelagic1 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 08, 2006, 02:58:03 PM »

Ahhh, I get it. Thanks for that.

nomosendero · « **Reply #11 on:** May 08, 2006, 06:05:31 PM »

Brithunter
Actually, that was a good question. In Benchrest, mere thousands of an inch difference separates the winners from the losers, so every advantage must be utilized, such as 2oz. triggers, special actions, custom barrels, etc. In other words, the bolt guns are far different than the bolt rifles that non-competitors buy. The bolt guns lend themselves better for these mods. & more custom items are available for them as they have been used for competition for years. The Rem. Mod. 700 is the most common factory production action used for this reason & the round receiver bottom is part of that. However, in factory form, Savage, CZ, Tikka & others are barking at the Rem's heels even though for the above reasons thy don't show up in competition, not yet anyway. But if you look at the new Tubb rifle used in long range competition, well it has a lot of AR type features such as part of the receiver & foreend. This trend will continue & as stated earlier, the AR kicks butt at the 600 yard line.
Soooo, as time goes on, the gap between the AR type rifle & the Bolt Gun
is narrowing some. I expect the bolt gun to dominate in the big calibers
for a while, but when we look at the 223 round, this is where the AR does
it's stuff & a custom bolt gun can outshoot it, mere thousands of an inch,
remember. But comparing the factory bolt gun at it's best like the Varmit Remingtons or Savages & the better Varmit AR, they are neck & neck, with my bets going toward the better AR's. My RRA Varmiter 24" started
putting 5 bullets under 1/2" almost from the get-go & now I expect & get better. I will always be a bolt action guy for the 25 cal & up, but I have sold my 223 Bolt guns & I will not look back!!!

Brithunter · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2006, 08:42:18 PM »

Hmmm................. now this has me thinking, dangerous that :roll: but my thoughts run along these lines ............................... when a bolt action is blue printed, they true up the action face and lap the lugs, so that there is an even amount of contact so not twisting of the action barrel joint under the stress of firing. Yes I do understand about how they measure the groups in Bench Rest and that it's group and not score.

Well how do they make sure that the 8 lugs of the M16 or Stoner bolt head bear evenly? I realise that the multi lug bolt locks direct into the barrel which must reduce some of the twisting as the bolt is locking into the barrel instead of the reciever.

Now as for 600 yard high power well a buddy of mine competes in Missouri in this and 600 yards benchrest. He used a savage 112v in 22-250 but then due to losing a few Bench matches due to wind drift he had a Lija 3 groove barrel made and fitted in .243AI. He is now having a new rifle built in 6.5-284 on a different action. The other year he lost 1st place in the state champonships at 600 yards by 0.015" that was the light gun class. He then shot his light gun against the heavy guns and came first over all with his combined score/group size. The wind was awful that day

The Multi lug thing interests me especially as I have a Mauser M96 Slide bolt (6.5x55) which has a doubled M-16 type head ..................... yep 16 bolt lugs. Accuracy is quite good but could improve, then again my shooting could always improve as well :roll:

nomosendero · « **Reply #13 on:** May 09, 2006, 02:20:28 AM »

Yes, you are making my point. You say when an action is blueprinted, well
they are not in factory rifles & they sure won't be for a $1,000 if everything else is done to them for benchrest. Again, for Varmits & shooting as per the subject of this post, you will do well with an accurized bolt gun or an AR. For Varmits at the ranges that I would want to hit them with a 223, it was not critical to me if a 223 bolt gun may occasionally give me a 1/32" better group because I have more than the required accuracy for Varmits at 223 ranges. Now with my 25-06AI, that is where the otherwise very minor edge of the bolt gun come into play, as I may be shooting a Coyote way out there.
On the $1,000.00 part, as one person said you could get a Savage & a
good scope & some accessories & that would be a good choice. I paid about that much for the RRA, but now I know that you can have a good one built & mount a scope for close to this figure. To me, if I had to scrape for a little more for an AR, I would do so, but the bolt 223's are fine, that's what I used for 30 years, but the AR offers so many advantages like the ability to engage multiple targets like PD's without changing your position & just more fun to shoot that it is no contest to me.
If I don't know by now which 223 is best for me then I never will. :roll:
Pelagic 1, have fun with your choice, whatever it is but the Mini should not
be considered, been there, done that!

nasem · « **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2006, 03:10:02 AM »

nomosendero-

Do you reload for your 223 ? Can I ask what kind of bullets / powder / brass you use ? How many times do you reload every brass. Im in the process of learning how to reload. the first calibers that I will reload will be 30-06 and then .223 then 7.62X54.

I kinda like the BTHP 69 gr from Nosler for the .223. I have a rifling twist 1/9 so I think that will stabalize the 69 grain bullet.

pelagic1 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2006, 04:42:54 AM »

Thanks again for all the great information. I have crossed off the Mini from the list since nobody has anything "good" to say, just "OK". I think I'll save my duckets and get a Bushmaster. If I get too antsy, that Savage 12BVSS sounds like a nice rifle, but for a few dollars more, the Bushmaster seems like a better choice overall. I haven't seen/read anything bad about either one yet.

nasem · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2006, 06:23:47 AM »

you have done a great decision. You will never be sorry.

Here is the problems with the bushmaster tho:
1) very addictive fun
2) once you go to the range, you'll soon realise that 5 hours have just past you by (time flys when your having fun)
3) ammo is very very cheap, you can shoot all day long, and here is the problem, you have to clean your gun every once in a while (just to keep her pretty)
4) Did I say its addictive ?

alright, you get what Im trying to tell you. but seriously, I would get one in 20" or better. Not that the carbine 16" is bad, but its just not as accurate as the 20". By the way, if your going to shoot in the ranges of 100-200 yards, 20" or 16" woun't matter at all, but beyond 200 yards is where you see the difference. When I go squirl hunting, my shots are always from 100-240ish yards.

pelagic1 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2006, 06:44:11 AM »

Thanks. I'm hoping that this research will save me from my most common mistake, which is buying 'A' and then finding out I'd rather have 'B' which I passed up because it was a few more $. Then I get 'B', and have both, therefore costing me more in the end! I really want to get into reloading (one of my friends is talking me into it), so I want something nice to reload for. Which means, at least to me, a nice centerfire with "reach out and touch something" potential. He recommended the .223, which is why I settled on it as a starting point. Now I get to go shopping! :grin: :grin: :grin:

nasem · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2006, 08:29:44 AM »

We are on the same boat. Im trying to learn how to reload these days. I'll officially start doing it in the next 4-6 weeks. I will first start reloading for the most basic cartridge, 30-06 for my bolt guns. When I become better at it, I will start doing it with the semi autos (223 and 7.62X54R)

A great starter kit is the RCBS rock chucker supreme (make sure you get the "supreme"), comes with 90% of the stuff you'll need for reloading. costs about $250 before shipping from midwayusa.com

Just make sure you learn exactly how to reload before you start on a semi auto..... it sometimes gets a little tricky becuase you need to get the right pressures to make the gun cycle smoothly. AND, you need to be 100% sure that your primer is being set 100% CORRECTLY, the last thing you want is the bolt face smacking into the primmer when it trys to load a round into the chamber.

Meanwhile, you can buy some REALLY cheap .223 ammo, from sportsmanguide.com WOLF 223 55grFMJ is the key to lots and lots of shooting. This ammo is NOTHIGN like the old wolf, this is NOT LAQUERED, its steel cased with "polyformace" wash to prevent it from rusting. Costs about 12-13 cents a pop.

pelagic1 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2006, 12:16:16 PM »

What a trip... I just ran home for lunch to look at the kit my friend had suggested to me, and guess what? "RCBS RC Supreme Master Reloading Kit"! Seem like we're getting the same advice, which I hope means it's good advice. Cabela's price wasn't as good as your's though, $260.

nasem · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2006, 02:28:24 PM »

I found it even cheaper here, $219
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/

One thing I will do is, sell the 5-0-5 scale it comes with and buy an electronic 750 RCBS scale. I Just wanna make sure I get the powder measurements correct. reloading is fun and seems easy, but is also dangerous if your not 100% carefull.

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2006, 03:21:40 PM »

Hello nasem
Yes, I shoot mostly reloads.
Concerning the bullets that my AR likes, so far the best accuracy is coming
from the 77MK, 69MK, 75Hor. OTM, 60 Gr. V-Max & the 50V-max has promise. I use Varget for most reloads for 60 gr. bullets & up & under 60 Gr. I use H4895, Acc2015, H335 & Benchmark. I use Win. cases but mostly LC & I use Rem. Benchrest or Fed. Benchrest primers. I don't do a good job of counting my reloads per case, but it is several. I will tell you that if you are going to shoot volume that reloading is a must. Yes, the 69
grain MK is a great place to start with the 1-9, but do try the 60V-Max if you want good terminal performance out a ways. The heavier bullets are no problem for trajectory if (1) you use a rangefinder or know the range
(2) You use Mil-Dots or a ranging reticle out to 400 or so & (3) if you know how to use the clicks for your scope out further or if you like that better than holdovers at any range if you have the time.
The heavier bullets will do well in the wind, not necessarially alot better than the light bullets starting faster due to time of flight, but usually a small edge anyway, afterall, that is what the 600 yard AR boys win with.

pelagic1 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2006, 04:16:08 AM »

Thanks, I may just order one up today...