scent

[catdaddy]

hi, i boiled my traps in tea but i touched them with a naked hand then put them in a container full of green leaves and grass, will my scent still be there this trapping season or will the grass and leaves cover it

[Bogmaster]

Never heard of using tea.I doubt if you have to worry about touching them now.
 Make sure all the grass and leaves you store them in,are totally dry.If they aren't--your traps will rust.
 Tom

[catdaddy]

so the scent is all gone from them

[Newt]

Dont worry about it. I set bear handed.
 Asa is now rooling his eyes,hes bitting his lip.
 I think hes just about to make a post !!!!

[catdaddy]

so u set traps bare handed and get smart animals

[Newt]

No Catdaddy, I catch dumb ones.
Where I come from 10 dumb ones are worth 10-X what 1 smart one is worth.
 You can go catch the smart one.He's all your.

[catdaddy]

so udo you mean opposums and skunks

[Newt]

No,No Catdaddy. Coyote,Red and Gray fox,Coon,Bobcat,Beaver and Otter,what ever.

[catdaddy]

so u set traps bare handed, and catch coyotes foxes and bobcats

[Newt]

Yes, Do you find that hard to beleave ?
Most pro's set with out gloves

[RdFx]

Catdaddy what  Newt  aka the Slimey One ... :-D ... is stating the truth.  If you have one that you HAVE to take like on a damage control complaint ect then using gloves  and being careful of your scent is important but in just trapping for fur, catch the cream of the fur crop and move on.  I wear gloves only to keep my hands warm, dry and also to keep them from cracking in finger tips.... im an old codger and drying out ....   Good luck

[catdaddy]

sorry, i thought yall were pullin my leg about setin traps bare hande, so done worry about scent on traps

[Newt]

Now you got to rember eash trapper is different.And what works for them, May not work for you.
With that said.Yes, I worry about scent. But I dont go to he excreams eather. I will wash my hands ,so to speak. In the grass ,dirt or mud ,ect before setting the a trap.
LOCATION is the biggst thing in making catches.Also its the harest thing to learn. #2 is having a solad trap bed.Yor trap cant move in its bed. When it does there better be a animal foot in it.
Study the animals that you are trapping. You CANT learn enough about them, or their habbits.

[catdaddy]

iam an allright trapper, i guess, so i can set them bare handed

[Bogmaster]

Some wear gloves,when placing lure and bait.Then they set traps bare handed.
 If you get any bait or lure on your bare hands--you better use gloves to set traps.
 Keep all attractants off of your traps.
 Tom

[Asa Lenon]

Newt writes...
Asa is now rooling his eyes,hes bitting his lip.
I think hes just about to make a post !!!!

'Yup, a post is in order here for the sake of the novice trappers that might be reading this thread. Let me set the record in the proper direction first. There is no big secret that seperates the trapping failures and so so trappers from the big numbers legends in every region, that big secret is adherance to SMALL DETAILS! One can harvest canines in dirty traps, rusty traps, traps contaminated by human sweat and scents off ones hands, traps not even covered, unnatural appearing sets, over lured sets, improperly located sets, sets reeking of human scent, etc. It is small details that add up one by one by one to maximum harvesting per traps set and time expended. The results of each detail adhered to or slipshoded over may also vary significantly from region to region depending upon a number of factors. As examples, the conditioning of a canine may vary according to factors like animal population vs food supply in an area, how closely canines live in close proximity with human activity in an area, etc. I have taught probably 100 students over the years and stressed adherence to small detail as the key to successful trapping. It just seems unreal to me that a trapper would go to all of the time to boil, wax and store traps away from odors and then handle them with his bare hands!!! Wearing gloves while handling traps would only be common sense following a program of thoroughness to cover small details.  Again, if one traps in an arid region the scent left on the trap from handling it bare handed would no doubt be less than one handling traps with bare hands in a humid region and have less significance in the result.  I heard it said a thousand times, "I caught X number of coyotes using bare hands on my traps. Numbers like that don't mean a thing to me, the question is HOW MANY WOULD HE HAVE CAUGHT WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF TRAPS AND TIME EXPENDED IF HE HAD FOLLOWED EVERY SMALL DETAILS.  I've observed scores of trappers over the years and I have never seen even one that omitted one detail like wearing gloves, they either embark on a program of thoroughness or they become slipshod on many or most all details. I have always said that every trappers should spend at least one season trapping in snow so they could see how many set avoidances, set-circleing, stand-backs and even run-offs are happening around their sets. Then they would realize that the number of animals they were harvesting could have been double if they adhered to all small detail. Out of those 100 students of mine, some become as good as myself in a short time, others become marginal trappers and some never caught a solitary fox or coyote, all with the same exact instruction. In analyzing why this happens it is easily apparent that the most successful students took in every word and action they were hearing or seeing and asked questions to be sure they understood or could even improve on the procedure. The worst failures were indifferent, come with pre-conceived ideas they learned from old slipshod trapper Joe and were argumentative. Some studens were thorough people by nature and some slipshod minded by nature so it become easy to predict each students success in advance.  To make an analogy to President Kennedy when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" I say "ask not what details I can omit and skate by marginally on the trapline but what details can I add to trap at maximum capacity, adding up numbers one by one by one.
There you go Newt! Ace

[Newt]

Thanks Asa,
I am not joking here----I dont know it all,Never will,and never pretend that I do.-------

 Do you offer trapping instuctions in the off season ?
 I would like to take Leasons from you.Could we do something in Aug. ? I'll be going to Barum MN. then.I'll be stoping by your house on that other busness.I have always wanted to take leasons from you.This would be a good time to do it.

[Asa Lenon]

:grin: Newt...Newt...Newt...do you really think I can perform miracles and teach a crusted 'ol trapper new tricks? I think you would fall into the catagory of "coming with pre-conceived ideas" and besides that i'm sure your doing well enough already and might end up teaching me some new tricks.   Ace

[Newt]

Come on Asa!!! You can teach me.I will be a good student.
 A man can never learn enough!!!!

[Asa Lenon]

Sorry Newt, I just don't have the time for instructions and I would also have to explain to about four other people per week why I turned them down and the give instructions to you.  Back in the bounty era through the 60's and 70's when trapping went on all year long I would take on several paying students per Summer.  After that I took on a few kids for no charge over they years but had to give that up too and haven't instructed anyone since about 1990. Ace

[trappnman]

what Asa finds he needs for success where he traps is all well and good- but its not even close to the realities of most canine trappers.

Human scent, in farm country, is a non issue.

I've done many tests in setting traps at certain times (AM ,PM) and using gloves, no gloves, kneeling pads, etc.

Final answer- when I collared the coyotes for te dnr for those 3 years, I often had 3-5 people all around the set when I made it. At a catch, it was even worse- everyone kneeling on the ground, etc. for up ot 30 minutes.

It MADE NO DIFFERENCE in my success rates (1 coyote per 15 traps nights) during this study.

Don't go out of your way to leave scent, but don't worry about it either if you trap where people are common. A coyote will never be fooled into not believing you were THERE, but he knows you ARE NOT THERE NOW.

Human scent disipates radidly in wind and sun. By evening, its a non issue for me and many other trappers.

Another factor is lure. Some trappers believe you can use too much lure, that overluring spooks a coyote...I believe just the opposite. A coyote plays with, rolls on, eats dead rotting pigs, sheep, deer and beef...6 more drops of a  lure is going to spook him? Not here, not for me.

You want a silver bullet- pay attention to the visuals of your set- both good and bad. scent disipates, lures fade...visuals last.

I had this same discussion with Asa for several years. I'm not saying he is wrong, as his methods work for him in his area.

But I do say- methods are different in different parts of the country.

I don't believe in over cleanliness, changing boots, putting traps in hay, etc.  Why? On the line experience shows that such extreme methods aren't needed and are a waste of time- for me.

There are many ways to skin a cat, Asa ways are one way, mine are another.

Study the animals, learn their patterns and their habits.

Thats where success comes.

Watch 20 good coyote trappers, and you have 20 different methods and sets of beliefs.

[Asa Lenon]

Trappnman:
 Certainly what you say has a lot of merit in that the significance of each individual factor can vary widely from region to region and other variables. However, from my 50+ years of coyote trapping experience and from the scores of students I instructed over a 30 year period, the fact still remains that those who pay attention to every detail, no matter how insignificant it may seem are the trappers who are most successful. For example, if one harvests 100 coyotes while using their bare hands they are going to say wearing gloves is bunk. However, they have no way of knowing if the number would have been say 105 harvested and a few tests they might perform on the subject wouldn't conclusively reveal a 5% loss or gain. Add this 5% along with other small factors that seem insignificant  ten times in ones procedure and we are now talking a 50% reduction in one's potential. As i've said a million times to both receiving ears and deaf negative ears on this forum is that there is no one big secret to maximum harvesting. There has to be a reason why say twenty trappers all expending the same efforts and number of traps end up being anywhere from complete failures to an area's legend. I've heard it said scores of times "Sure wish I knew so and so's secret." The secret is paying attention to all details without trying to second guess what is more important than another. Why else would my students who all recieved the same exact instruction turn out to be failures, mediocre harvesters and some as good as myself in a short period of time. The answer is obvious, the successful students grasp and developed on the program of thouroughness I taught them. The failures come for instructions with pre-conceived ideas because someone they admired told them differently.  Mediocre harvesters fell somewhere in between a thorough mind and a slipshod way of thinking.  By slipshod I mean some are expending energy trying to think of ways to make the trapline an easier and softer program while others are racking their minds to improve on the ideas they learned. ALL novice trapper should at least launch their trapping careers with a thorough regimen of paying attention to all detail. This ensures they didn't second guess wrongly.  Time and experience has proven detail always succeeds. Ace

[trappnman]

of course, paying attention to details matters.

But the point is, we all have different details we think matter.

I've taught students also- and their success or lack of it, is how well they WANT to learn how to trap.  

Sure, you could as easily take more with gloves than without- or visa versa. I wear gloves most times- but I also have trapped, remade sets without gloves, and I personally, here on my line, see no differnce in avoidances, etc.  I continue to wear gloves, cause its easier on my hands.

Another example is kneeling pads. I used them for years- and always made sure I changed out if suspected or contaminated, folded same side in each time, etc. Treated it like gold.

Then, I just qwuit using one- kneel right o nthe ground- and no difference.

Same with someone urinating by the set... I was strict about this, until "guests" would do so- now, I don't even worry about it.

Yet- one thing I find extremely important, and others don't- is dips and rust.

Different areas, different conditions.

I'm with you on giving lessons. I have 2 more committments, and then no more.

[coyotero]

The guys I know that regularly catch 300+ coyotes a year in leg holds,during the fur season are clean freaks.I want the coyote to work the set right after I leave.I used to not worry about scent,mine,at a location.I'm now real careful about clean traps and leaving as little scent at the set as I can.My numbers went way up.Yes he knows you were there,but you didn't leave enough scent to distract him from the lovely lure smell.Asa's right,clean is the way to go.

[Asa Lenon]

Thanks Coyotero for your input!  :grin:  Most of the canine trappers i've known over the years don't have a clue to how many set rejections they are getting from excessive human scent and odd foreign odors left at and near sets. This is why they argue so vehemently that the human scent issue is an old wives tale.   Every trapper that I was ever able to convince to tighten up on their cleanliness standards immediately started harvesting greater numbers of coyotes and red fox with the same number of traps and time expended. I've never known a top harvester in my area that didn't boil and wax traps, wear clean gloves, footwear, clothing, etc while setting and tending traps.  What I am advocating here is common sense standards, not taking the idea to outreageous standards. For example, if I accidentally happen to touch a boiled and waxed trap bare handed I don't get upset about it and I plant it in the ground anyway. Another example is that I always prefer a clean trap after a catch but many times will simply clean up the soiled trap the best I can and replace it if clean and deoderized traps are in short supply. I've heard trappers say or ask a thousand times in the past 50 years "coyotes don't work sets until the third day" or why do coyotes pass my sets for the first three days?" There are only three possibilities for this, #1...excessive human scent, #2...Odd foreign scents, #3...overluring of sets, all three which remedy themselves with several days to air out.  Personally, my most productive harvest days are the first night the sets are out! I've many times made sets and before I was out of the vicinity I would hear coyotes barking and return to the set 5 or 10 minutes later to collect my harvest. Believe me, this seldom happens when everything at and near the sets reek blatantly of human scent and peculiar odors one tracked of their boot soles from their last stop at McDonalds restroom.  I understand that the significance to a canine of human scent and the significance of some foreign odors vary from locality to locality depending upon the canines life experiences, coyote population vs food supply, arid vs humid climates, etc.  However, I still maintain that even in an area of the most concentrated  human activity that a trapper will excell by following a good set of clean standards. I don't care if one is trapping urban coyotes that are raiding trash cans, if the human scent is so strong that the coyote fears a human is hiding inside the trash can he is not going to raid it!!!Some trapper from South Dakota once stated that "a coyote knows you were there and he knows when your not there." Well, I don't know how he could have been so wise as to know that is the situation in every instance! It is my opinion that this was just a foundless thought off the top of the trappers head that seemed reasonable to him when he said it because he considered himself a successful trapper.  Then some other trappers have picked up that statement and recite it like a parrot like it has been scientifically proven or taken from the gospels! I have did experiments with this issue by making both clean sets and unclean sets so I could watch them from my blind, I doubt the SD trapper did anything to bolster his claim. I do this every deer season, it gives me something to do and learn from while waiting for a buck to come along. I've witnessed it scores of times, coyote or red fox generally readilly approach clean sets without much hesitation. Canines don't necessarily always completely reject unclean sets but they work them differently by standing back, sniffing, set circleing and sometimes trying to peek into the hole from the side or back and many times acting so nervous about the set that they simply move on. So, this is another aspect to clean standards if one would prefer good straight on approaches to the set resulting in way less near misses. Thanks again coyotero!!!  :grin: Ace

[coyotero]

Asa   I've seen while calling coyotes,not moving,having coyotes get down wind at 200 yards and smell you.Their gone.I rub sage on my kneeling pad and gloves.My boots never see the gas station.Change to clean gloves daily.

[Asa Lenon]

Coyotero writes...
Asa I've seen while calling coyotes,not moving,having coyotes get down wind at 200 yards and smell you.Their gone.

Hmmmmmm, and yet some would still maintain that blatant human scent at or near sets means nothing! :roll:

Thanks again coyotero! The novice trappers on the forums need to know that adhering to every detail is important in trapping any animal, coyotes especially.   Ace

[Wackyquacker]

While there are some that will adamantly disagree with all this "Mr. Clean" stuff others will jump up and down waving flags of praise.  What is most often lacking in these debates is a clear definition of what you mean by "clean trapping".  

I suppose we could set extremes of surgical gloves, gowns, mask and booties dawned in the vehicle that is parked X number of yards from the set and discarded after each set is made, too tobacco spewing, smoking, jump right from the truck in work coveralls that have not been washed for sixteen oil changes, four barn muckings, 258 Preg tests and 3007 castrations. I doubt there is a fool walking the earth that would misidentify the logical choice with these extremes.  Likewise, move away from these two extremes toward a middle ground and you will find the “sole” of these heated debates.

I contend that some sort of attempt should be made to express a clear and practical definition of "clean".  I'll say this, if anyone thinks they can fool a canid (hide yourself from their olfactory capacity) they are harboring a belief that is likely controlling their thought process instead of the proverbial “vice versa”.  I'll also state that for all the discussions I have followed on these various forums, one of the most over-used and mis-used terms thrown around is "proof". Relative to things even modestly scientific, a “proof” is largely limited to mathematical endeavors.  Furthermore, I’ve seen few that have preformed adequately controlled experiments, following PRE-established protocols, which offer more than a series of personal observations (empirical data); which are a far cry from what we might consider scientific data.  

Absent scientific data, obtained from sound protocols and judged against untreated controls, we are dealing with conjecture or maybe better folklore.  Now, before everyone starts running for the cross and spikes, I am not saying that anyone is wrong or spewing lies and B.S.;  empirical observations, in fact, are the genesis of much of scientific study and frequently are, at least partially, enrobed in truth.

Consider these few thoughts: is the trapper that pays strict attention to “cleanliness” affecting a better catch ratio because they are significantly “cleaner” or because they are, in a general sense, paying attention to detail?  Which is more important paying attention to detail or cleanliness?  Here we are again, what is the definition of cleanliness or for that matter “attention to detail”? Can we or should we attempt to separate the two?  How about this one; is there a significant advantage to wearing gloves to keep human scent off of a trap versus to minimize lure transfer to the trap?  

We can list many more questions of a similar vain and maybe we shall.  I suggest that for meaningful discussions every answer should be qualified with reference to the climatic conditions, predator density and general location of the sets.  I also predict that when we’re done the conclusion reached will be that cleanliness is more important than not  and certainly for a trapper to reach maximum capture ratios he need not be steeped in aseptic technique.

[Asa Lenon]

Very good post Wackyquacker! :grin:
  As for scientific tests on the effects of human scent on animals, I once read a university study that went something along these lines; human sweat was placed in vials with electronic caps that could be opened by remote control. These vials were placed in an area where elk fed on a daily basis. The first vial of sweat was fresh sweat opened about 100 yards from the feeding elk. The elk all detected it right away and fidgeted while stareing that way for a few minutes before going back to feeding. The second vial was sweat 1 hour aged and when it was opened the elk got alarmed and started moving back away from it another 100 yards before resuming feeding. The 3rd vial was aged 2 hours and when it was opened the elk took right off to get back away from it several hundred yards. The last vial was sweat aged 4 hours and when it was opened every elk immdiately took right off into the woods and kept on going.
Now relating this to a trapline I see that starting the day with clean clothing on a clean body would be a real benefit when one's odor was brushed on to or permeated into the surrounding vegetation. It only stands to reason and common sense that the less human scent left and the least intense that scent is, the less effect it will have on an approaching canine and of course would dissipate completely much more quickly. I expect that blatant human scent like a drop of sweat or direct contact with the trap with bare hands for examples would linger in the air and on the traps for several days while minimal scent left from common sense cleanliness standards might be dissipated completely within a few hours and perhaps acceptable to the canine 5 minutes after making a set.  You made another good point too Wackyquacker, from my experiences and observations over the years I have yet to see a trapper who refused to employ common sense cleanliness standards who paid attention to any other important detail either. One either has a thorough mentality or a slipshod mentality in life period and this mentality reflect on one's trapline harvesting. Ace

[Asa Lenon]

I awakened this morning thinking there is another possible aspect to the human scent issue that Steven T. on another forum often expounds upon.  Human odors may vary from person to person, some peoples odor being more alarming to the animals than others and which may change in odor from day to day. This could help account for so many varying opinions from one's personal experiences.  Steven points out that once his Father contracted cancer that his catch rate dropped signifincantly or completely, suggesting that the offensive odor of desease changed the chemical make-up of his body and made canines more wary of the set and area. Then there are medications that ooze out through the pores along with the sweat which one could only imagine what varying effect these foreign odors may have on the canine. For example, when I take a simple vitamin pill I can smell the vitamin B-1 on my hands when the palms of my hands sweat. If I can smell it, how intense is this peculiar odor to a canine that can smell somewhere between 400 times and 1 million times better than me? No one could even guess whether this particular odor would be alarming to a canine if one handles their traps and equipment with bare hands.  The obvious solution to all of these possible scenarios is to take reasonable precautions to not make direct contact with any of ones cleaned and deoderized traps and equipment. The other choice is to second guess how alarming one's odor may or may not be to each individual fox or coyote and to second guess whether any other foreign odors might be on our hands, bodies and clothing and whether our individual odor might change from day to day depending upon what we may have ingested differently that day.  It is obvious that second guessing would be pure folly!  Beginning the trapline day with a clean body and clean clothing,  wearing clean gloves and clean footwear when handling traps and equipment, using a clean kneeling cloth if one kneels when constructing sets all prevent one from making blatant direct contact with the set and set area.  Avoiding when possible the brushing up against foliage in the set area also leaves less scent and tucking one's pant leges into their boots prevents dead skin cells from falling like snow in one's tracks and trails.  Learning to choose set locations while standing back a distance and then going directly to the set spot, constructing the set as quickly as possible and exiting directly without a lot of excess tracking and traipsing around the area also leave less human scent. When these common sense precautions and procedures are employed a minimum odor of human scent is left in the set area and obviously will be less alarming to the animals and dissipate completely more quickly.  Ace