Author Topic: scent (Read 3075 times)

RdFx · « **Reply #30 on:** June 18, 2006, 05:57:25 AM »

Asa your points in last two replys have much merit. There are so many variables to trapping and if one can control ones he can , it be advised one should. Everyone smells differant such as one fellow at work takes showers but downwind 15 yards away i can smell him...and he isnt a cigarette smoker either. Take a canine and heck he knows someone or something has been at a set and since he uses his NOSE and eyes, ears to survive and find food well you know the canines nose is very important in what it smells. Sniff-sniff yep bvr oil, dang that stuff wont come off my fingers........NO not that kind... :roll: ... :twisted: ... :roll:

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #31 on:** June 18, 2006, 12:22:03 PM »

Pick an odor, any odor, why would a canid be alarmed?

Asa Lenon · « **Reply #32 on:** June 18, 2006, 01:43:44 PM »

Wackyquacker writes....Pick an odor, any odor, why would a canid be alarmed?

Being wary of things that do not appear natural to the area and circumstances, including any strange odors, probably set in motion the survival mode. If this wasn't the case, one would not need to make reasonably natural looking sets either. For example, one could mask human scent by rubbing hot peppers or onions on their body and clothing but when a wilderness animal smelled that unusual odor he would be on his way quickly on general survival principles. Ace

RdFx · « **Reply #33 on:** June 18, 2006, 03:26:16 PM »

As with humans an example would be skunk , majority non trapping people go WHOA, and are on alert when they smell skunk...myself i like the smell BUT not full quill right in the face!! :eek: . With a canine from differant areas and depending upon his past lifes experiences each differant area canine could have a differant response to same odor or if odor caused bad experience then it would be wary of odor or completely avoid it.
In my area ive seen where yote and wolf use same area as scent postings (differant items in same area) and also leaving piles of thier feces. NOW im sure when a yote is coming in that area he is on HIGH ALERT and the wolf also becuase of food competion . One could go on and on with differant odors. Im sure Asa has learned much on his own plus a lifetime of animal responses to scents from his dad Herb. Analizing that storehouse of info and putting it into actual experience or situations had to and still is very interesting to Asa and others interested in this field.

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #34 on:** June 18, 2006, 05:40:37 PM »

Quote from: Asa Lenon

Being wary of things that do not appear natural to the area and circumstances, including any strange odors, probably set in motion the survival mode.

Sooo, what then is the difference between an attractant and repellant: beaver castor and human scent from a person in their last days of life? A pup out on its own in the middle of the southwest desert, the only water it has ever encountered was a stock tank; what does it do investigate castor and shy like a banchie from the scent of death? Why? Both are unatural to the area and to the pup.

Asa Lenon · « **Reply #35 on:** June 19, 2006, 02:13:20 AM »

Obviously animals recognize the odors of other animals musks, glands and body parts and it brings out their nature and/or are curious about them. Not one American animal has ever smelled tonquin musk from an Asiatic deer but all animals are attracted to it. However, there is one animal that always spells danger and alarm to all wild animal species, HUMANS. Therefore humans must take precautions to help reduce those alarming odors, both human scent and foreign scents that aren't of animal origin if they want to harvest certain animal species in maximum numbers. Ace

MacinMaine · « **Reply #36 on:** June 19, 2006, 08:09:19 AM »

Asa,

Do you think a boilded and waxed trap is odorless? Just curious.
One of the arguements that I have heard, and it makes sense to me, is that a coyote or fox can smell a trap, no matter how it is treated.
Why would cooked dye and wax be a natural odor?
Just wondering what you thought.

One of your old customers

Mac

Asa Lenon · « **Reply #37 on:** June 19, 2006, 09:34:17 AM »

Good point Mac! No Mac, boiled traps are likely not odorless but have been deoderized of more possibly alarming odors. However, this is why I boil and dye my canine traps in native tree barks like oak, soft maple, hemlock and alder so as to camouflage the odor with a nice natural woodsy odor. I add aromatic tree branches to the boiling water which are native to the area and season I am trapping. For Winter usage I add cedar oil to the dye solution and also to the trap wax as cedar swamps and heavy evergreen cover is where most sets are made that time of year. Traps are readily detected by canines when placed and covered with porous snow but I have taken note that this proceedure cut set circleing and avoidance to near zero. When I trapped for bounty in the Summer the trapping areas were mainly in our blueberry and jackpine plains where one can smell the fragrance of sweet ferns in the air. I placed sweet ferns into the dye solution and never after that would I get a set avoidance or digging. Those are just some more of those details I expound about that add up maximum harvests one by one by one. Ace

RdFx · « **Reply #38 on:** June 19, 2006, 11:40:22 AM »

Asa when i trapped in Hayward Wi., i used sweetferns in my boiling of canine traps as it was all over the place and plenty of jackpines also... It definetely helps using natural fauna of the area.

coyotero · « **Reply #39 on:** June 20, 2006, 03:37:54 AM »

Wacky My definition of "clean" is Lyed,Dyed and waxed traps,packed in clean trap boxes with fresh cut sage.Clean gloves daily(a new pair),handle lure with a seperate pair of gloves,wear rubber boots,clean clothes(hung in the garage away from "household odors"),rub sage on knees and rub sage on gloves frequently.My boots are put on when I start setting or checking,I don't wear them in the house or to fuel up.I walk in streams I cross while out on the line.Lots of people think we have a big coyote population here.The population isn't as dense as in the Dakotas and elsewhere.These coyotes get pursued 24/7.Shot at year round by farmers and ranchers,ADC flies the fixed wing and helicopter frequently.We have a 5 week long big game season so hunters are shooting at them. After hunting season lots of guys call and shoot them.If we have enough snow they get run down by snowmobilers.These coyotes are what I consider "spooky".If they hear a vehicle,they're gone.They shy from human odor,it seems to be associated with "bad things",like get shot at or chased.The "cleaner" I am the better my catch ratio per traps set is.

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #40 on:** June 20, 2006, 05:14:39 AM »

I still see no answer to the last question I posed; what is the difference between an attractant and a repellant? How about thinking in these terms, why / how is an odor attractive or repulsive? How or why do they become repulsive or attractive?

I'll throw this out also, should think in terms of learned and innate responses? And I'll add that with good certainty we can predict that responses to odors will follow some sort of dose response (concentration dependant) curve predicted by classic saturation kinetics of one form or another.

Food vs. fear, selective pressure and adaptation, common "components" / stimulants, if we think about scent in these terms and in combination with the mechanics of the processes things begin to make some sense.

Using Asas example of tonquin musk, this is not a single compoundmore likely a composite of hundreds if not thousands of fractions / peaks / molecular species. Our perception is that it smells different than castor. While a coyotes perception may be that it smells similar to castor; simply because the coyotes olfactory capacity is so much better at discriminating odor. After all, we understand from anatomical studies that the canids have, in every way, a much more sophisticated olfactory detection and processing system. Maybe tonquin simply processes a much higher concentration of the active ingredients (attractants) than castor. I dont know this but a comparison of chromatographic separations profiles could shed light on to the possibility. If this were the case both musks are attractant because of the same ingredient / attractant. Tonquin having a higher concentration is more attractive simply because it contains a higher concentration of the attractantan attractant common to food? This is merely supposition that I am putting forth as an example to extend the discussion. Obviously things cold just as well be more complex.

Could the same scenario exist for the fear Factor?

Asa Lenon · « **Reply #41 on:** June 20, 2006, 06:13:14 AM »

Great post coyotero, your a man from my own heart. If I ever trap MT i'll be lookin' for you to be my partner! :grin: Ace

Wackyquacker writes...I still see no answer to the last question I posed; what is the difference between an attractant and a repellant? How about thinking in these terms, why / how is an odor attractive or repulsive? How or why do they become repulsive or attractive?

Were not chemists, biology majors or scientist' so are unable as trappers to second guess when odors might attract or repel so we use reasonable precautions like coyotero has outlined to ensure as little possibly unwanted odor as possible is left at or near the sets. The odors we do want are placed where the animal must cross the trap pan to investigate them. Only odors that have been tested and proven as attractors are used to entice a wary animal to make the final step into the set with no distraction from excessive human or unproven foreign odors.

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #42 on:** June 20, 2006, 10:36:53 AM »

My questions were somewhat rhetorical in nature and my aim was not to question what has been or is the current "state of the art" in lure formulation.

The discussion moved a bit to differences among individual human odors, odors at different stages of life and "exotic animal musks; the former being, to varying degrees, repellants and the later a universal attractant. It was my aim to help look at these observations in a manner that may have brought some logical explanation to the observations.

I am not perplexed by these types of observations. Lure formulation is about where we would predict it to be considering the very limited amount of data that has been compiled relative to pure compounds as attractants and repellants. On the other hand there is a large body of data on receptor biology and olfactory capacity is a closely related phenomenon. This may allow for some addition insight.

coyotero · « **Reply #43 on:** June 20, 2006, 12:18:15 PM »

Wacky There just coyotes :grin: I tend to see them as instinctive and conditioned responses.I believe they do what we "teach" them to do.If you heard my truck,then got shot at you may avoid that sound.If you come into a set with lots of human odor and get your toes pinched or dirt thrown in your face you may avoid these situations.
There are lots of guys that catch 50 to 100 coyotes a fur season.Once the number goes above 150 coyotes the numbers of guys doing this with leghold traps drops way off.The guys I know that catch 300 to 500 coyotes a fur season in legholds operate differently.Just my observation not a clinical study.The ones I know are "clean freaks".

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #44 on:** June 20, 2006, 12:59:59 PM »

I hope know one thinks I advocate being sloppy. I don't wear rubber boots and wade streams...we don't have water. Otherwise I follow most of the practices you outlined. I don't worry about where I hang my clothes though...I doubt there are any less odors in the garage than in the house!

RdFx · « **Reply #45 on:** June 20, 2006, 05:31:29 PM »

With Wackys dry air and dry conditions he probably can get away with things Asa and i cant here in wet and sometimes humid Michigan and Wisconsin.
If i remember right some hot shot western trappers came to Michigan to show Asa how its done out west. From the bit i heard they went home with thier heads hung low...
A canine has things he responds to instinctively and others by conditioned responses which could be : results of contact with said smells , results of eating something with said smells. TO make it simple three things affect any furbearer: sex for procreation, Food to sustain self, and place to live and do first two things. Mix all the smells associated with the three and you have a complex mixture of smells which sustains or ends thier lives. You take the three things in a differant part of country and variables will come up where one trapper can make it work in his area and not in another trappers area.

catdaddy · « **Reply #46 on:** June 20, 2006, 06:02:14 PM »

i read in a trapping book that if a stick my land traps over a pine fire come season the animals will be aattracted to it and dig it up, is this true

Bogmaster · « **Reply #47 on:** June 20, 2006, 07:21:34 PM »

Question,what book was this?
Some older books,contain information that may be detrimental to trapping in todays world.Methods have changed a lot ,traps have changed as have many of the methods used to trap.Also fur handling is also a lot different than decades ago.
Tom

Asa Lenon · « **Reply #48 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:36:52 AM »

Catdaddy:
One doesn't want any odor on a trap that draws attention or curiosity about the trap and might cause digging or set rejection. Even when one uses cedar oil and other acceptable natural fragrances they must be used subtly and sensibly as a set reeking stropngly of cedar wouldn't be natural either.

RdFx brings up the point about arid conditions vs humid conditions again. Obviously in arid conditions one is less likely to be perspiring at or near the set or if and when the traps are handled bare handed. If one recalls the study in an above posting about the elk study and the more negative effects of ageing perspiration, if one doesn't sweat at all when handling traps or making sets they leave so little odor that it probably dissipates in a very short time. For those of you who have never trapped humid conditions, dog experts have told me the odors just hang there for days rather than hours.
Also, concernig conditioning of coyotes, it is again for example evident that gas and oil odors aren't going to alarm a coyote in oil field country and human odors won't be near as alarming to a coyote at the gate of a working ranch as they are to an Upper Michigan wilderness coyote. However, the animal world does not have to be conditioned negatively about human scent as they are born with that natural wariness and fear about humans. Otherwise we wouldn't always be looking at the tails of retreating animals when they detect our presence! Other animal species pretty much coexist with each other without retreating from one another other than a pecking order. For example, my wife Maria was taking wildlife pictures one Winter of trumpeter swans and geese sitting together on the ice of a lake when up through a hole in the ice comes an otter which sat right along side of them. I was astounded that the swans and geese weren't afraid of the otter but somehow the birds must have known that the otter meant no harm at that time. Does anyone believe that any human at any time could have mingled with the wild birds? Again, animals always run from and fear humans unless they are sick or have rabies so even in arid regions and areas of more human scent conditioning I believe one is going to harvest more canines by taking precautions to reduce human scent. Also, as I mentioned before, from my personal observations from a blind, canines work sets differently and approach the sets more directly when maximum reasonable efforts at scent reduction are employed. Ace

coyotero · « **Reply #49 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:32:07 AM »

Wackquacker You may have forgotten in Montana we trap a very heavy,very pale coyote that is olfactory compromised. :grin:

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #50 on:** June 21, 2006, 04:03:35 AM »

Quote from: coyotero

heavy, very pale coyote that is olfactory compromised. :grin:

Will you make up you're mind...either they are scared senseless from choppers, planes and rifle shooting pick up trucks or are they struck sick with a head cold...and why aren't you out fishing anyway? Geesh, here you have water, a boat, nice temps, a cabin, fishin poles and you sit at a puter pickin at me and Asa when you could be catchin fish.

While I tend to agree with notion of some "instinctive" (I prefer innate) fears-pleasures / senses, I always wonder what the basis for these would be. The vehicle for their existence is evolution, selective pressure / adaptation. The mechanism is another issue. Is it taste-smell, visual, temp, sound or texture...or some collage of a grouping of sensory inputs? The other question is how do we determine what is a learned response and what is innate? This would be fun to learn and likely somewhat useful for trapping.

I don't know if critters are born with a fear of humans, specifically or for example, born with a fear of things that walk erect...the first site of a man walking must be very different to a pup coyote as would a bear rising to its hind legs. Are they fearful of the strange foot falls of bipedal locomotion? Are there a human smell and a grizzly smell and a wolf smell and a rattler smell or is there a single smell that triggers "fear" / flight (a universal repellant an alarmone) that is common to these species? Do prey animals have common "scent themes" different from carnivores? Are these responses very simple one trigger events of complex happenings? What does the observation of natural habituation of wildlife to humans reveal about alarmones, attractants, learned behavior?

coyotero · « **Reply #51 on:** June 21, 2006, 12:16:54 PM »

Wacky Asa and I are "one with the coyotes enviroment" I'm not picking on him.Tonight is my last of 6,12 hour graveyard shifts.In the A.M. I'm off to the boat for 8 days of fishing.By this time tommorrow I'll be on a sunken island,just south of Gull Island,in 13 to 23 feet of water pulling bottom bouncers with spinners and crawlers.About 7:30 P.M. the ribeyes and baked potatoes will be done.You all come sit a spell.I have to go my 5 month old Golden retriever pup is unpacking my bag for me.

RdFx · « **Reply #52 on:** June 21, 2006, 01:24:41 PM »

Go for it Yotero, get it done and have fun!

Asa Lenon · « **Reply #53 on:** June 21, 2006, 01:29:49 PM »

:grin: Have a good time on that fishin' trip coyotero! Ace

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #54 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:00:30 PM »

Bah humbug! Its easy for you two to say...you have water!

Newt · « **Reply #55 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:10:00 PM »

Wacky, I got salt water !

Wackyquacker · « **Reply #56 on:** June 21, 2006, 05:39:59 PM »

Go ahead Slimey, rub it in some more. Where is cousin Bobby when I need him?

Newt · « **Reply #57 on:** June 22, 2006, 03:07:47 AM »

Steal'n traps,Back'n unjust laws and kiss'n another govener's a$$ ?

jim-NE · « **Reply #58 on:** June 30, 2006, 04:13:31 AM »

All right, all right, all right...
I have to jump back on here from time to time to post my two cents once and awhile. (Hey, how is everyone doing, by the way? Hope summer finds you all in good spirits!)
Scent. There is an age-old argument. And judging by the length of strings on this subject here, there are about as many opinions on it, too.
So, here is my take on it. I'm no expert, either, and please take this for what's its worth.
I live in Southeastern Nebraska, in the heart of farm country. There is a house or other human encounter at least every 1/4 mile or so, even in the remotest areas of counties around here. Most areas see much more human activity though.
When I started trapping pastures 20+ years ago, I was super paranoid about scent...had the gloves, the setting cloth, cleaned my tools about 4x a day, etc. etc. etc.
Then one day I forgot my gloves, and I faced what I feel was a crossroads in my trapping experiences, and I did what I wasn't supposed to do...I made a set with bare hands! I caught a coyote about 2 days later that week in that set. Probably was just a dumb one, I know. But I didn't forget the experience, and gradually over time I put the gloves aside only getting them out when it was super cold out.
I have no idea why I still catch coyotes and fox, and cats, without gloves. The little guys never live long enough to tell me what it was like when they visited my sets.
I only have a theory. One time I made a set, caught two coyotes, and only to discover that I made my set about 2 feet away from the landowners usual "relieving" spot when he drove through that gate opening. I made a set once near a brown area where no grass grows...it was an old diesel fuel spot from a leaky tractor parked overnight while discing a field.
I can only speculate that for animals in this area, human encounters...at least encounters with human scent, are an every-day experience for coyotes and foxes around here. I think that the scent alone from a human just never hurt them before and therefore there is no association between the scent and something harmful. I may be offensive to them, but certainly the scent alone most likely never hurt them to give them a negative experience. Now a visual on the other hand, such as the pickup that comes to a screeching halt and a gunshot from the truck...yes, that educates a coyote very quickly about stopping trucks on the backroads.
I will add though that when I want to make a post set, something of a natural thing for coyotes and foxes to do, I don't set those bare-handed as I want to keep the set as natural as possible. I don't make my other sets with gloves though. There is enough pop cans, ciggarette butts, food wrappers, etc. blowing around here that food gets some association with human scent at some point in a coyotes life (again, just my theory). I like to set snares with gloves too...no sense breaking their stride if they get a whiff of something different along the way.
I am also not a big believer in the whole "rust" scent avoiding at sets. Man, every field around here is full of rusty wire, bits of old machinery parts, etc. and rusted all to heck...but none of it most likely hurt the critter to cause a negative reaction from it...its part of their every day experiences in this neck of the woods.
Anyway, that's my two cents on it. Oh, I also got tired of snagging the heel of my thumb area of gloves in double longs, so I generally avoid setting with gloves...except for post sets and snares. I do not avoid the gloves due to speed, etc. as it would take me just as long to make a set with gloves or without...I am plain just not that fast at pounding them in. Besides, I always did like playing the dirt when I was a kid. Dirthole sets are sort of a little bit of art in themselves, and I really find myself spending a lot of time on them...so I probably leave all kinds of scent at the sets when my lazy body is hanging around them so long. Hey, its fun though, isn't it?
I also like the comments made about avoiding the smart animals. Those old, wised-up females especially can be a real challenge to catch, and often their hides are so scarred up and showing signs of many litters, fights, etc. that they get discounted severely anyway. I would much rather that the old female lives to produce some healthy, great hide-covered litters for me. I can never believe that she would be able to teach her young about my sets...I catch too many to believe she is generally able to pull that off. Yep, leave the old dog and catch her kids...its a beautiful relationship and management of the resources!
Jim-NE

coyotero · « **Reply #59 on:** July 03, 2006, 03:32:28 AM »

I got to spend the day,fishing,with a recently retired ADC(federal) trapper.He trapped problem coyotes in N.D. for 39 years.We talked a lot about coyotes,sets,spooky coyotes,trap testing at the research center and scent as it relates to clean.His views on catching coyotes was clean gloves,leave as little scent as possible etc.He said you can catch coytotes without doing this but not as fast or in large numbers.That was just his experience.He was a big advocate of using good quality urine at sets.Said he's caught lots of spooky coyotes on urine alone.
Jim I understand what your saying about catching the female in regards to future litters.My experience here is if I catch the bitch first the male and pups come pretty easy.The ranchers/farmers around here want the coyotes removed.We have a good enough shuffle/migration to fill in the empty territories that the population stays pretty constant.Disease seems to be the biggest factor in population numbers.