Author Topic: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting  (Read 26220 times)

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Offline nasem

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2006, 09:48:48 AM »
Wow, I started this thread 6 months ago, and its still hot, Im pretty happy about that.

Im gonna go a head and say 99% of people who read / replay to this thread are NON DG hunters.  So I do think its silly to try to argue to an actual PH.  However I do believe that everyone is entiled to thier own opinion.

I think a .22 LR can take down an elephant.  Am I right ? am I wrong ? to you maybe Im a total idiot but my opinion is MY OPINION lol.

Likewise for the .338 win mag.  Some peep's opinions think its good for DG and some don't, its just an opinion, not a fact. 

The only reason I started the thread was to hear some REAL facts on why the .338 win mag is not used for DG.  Its an outstanding caliber, hits hard and is pretty flat.  You can take it to africa (again, this is my opinion) and kill non-DG along with DG game.  You don't need to have 2 rifles (one for DG and other for non-DG)..... But apparently, some where down the line, laws were laid that .375 is bare minimum for DG.

My OPINION IS, if you take a 270 gr A-frame 375 h&h bullet and hit a buffalo with it at point X.
and you take a 250 gr A-frame 338 win mag bullet and hit another same size buffalo AT THE SAME POINT X....  Both animals will die within seconds of each other (if not the same time exactly).  I think both bullets will provide "almost" same results.

If the 375H&h gives you 100% performace, then the .338 will give you 98%..... Blood trail might be better with the 375, but both bullets do perform close to each other.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2006, 10:48:04 AM »
I like your candor and open-ness to the topic. However the 250 338 and the 270 grain 375HH are not close to the same.

The diameter difference is significant. It's not just .037 difference it's the whole surface area that is bigger.... much bigger! Do the math on the surface area and you will see by percentage just how big a difference it is.

Furthermore the 375HH is not limited to 270 grain bullets but handles 300 grain bullets just as well. The difference there is signiificant. Sure you can add a bigger bullet to the 338 too, but with the standard length case you cannot get the powder to really use a bullet that much bigger. The 375HH case length lets you use both easily.

The bottom line is that even though on paper things may look similar the reality when you see game hit, just as you say nearly identical............is simply not the same. After 20 years of seeing the biggist game on earth shot with both, I'm here to say the formula's don't get you to the same place as the visual does!  This could be the same arguement with the 375HH and the 416 Remington on the large side, or the 7mm magnum and the 300 magnum on the small side. Nothing you do with the smaller cartridge will ever equal the bigger one. It's why they came up with bigger ones!

Your mileage may vary, and your entitled to your own opinions. I wish you well in your hunting and your future cartridge choices in Africa
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Offline nasem

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2006, 12:06:58 PM »
I am not about to argue with a guy that kills "big" things for a living.  The most DG hunts I have ever done were 120-140 white tails lol and by no means are dangerous, maybe if they stab you with thier antlers lol, yeh that would hurt.  Due to the fact that I am not a DG hunter, nor do I know much about DG hunting, I can't really agree or disagree with you on how much "more" or "less" lethal a .338 diameter is than a .375.

I am simply tried to compare a .338 win mag to .375 the same way people compare the 300 win mag to the 7mm mag.

The 300 win mag is more powerfull, has larger diamer (more surface area :) ), flatter, can handle heaver bullets than the 7mm mag, but the applications that allow you to use the 300 win mag and 7mm are the same..... You can drop bears / elks / deer / pretty much anything in North American with both bullets and I don't "think" one kills better than the other....

is the 300 win mag "better" than 7mm mag ? you betcha
is the 375 h&h "better" than the .338 ? sure it is.

In regards to DG hunting, which one is better, 375 or 338..... I really don't know, Im not experienced enough to make this decision.  Do I "think" the .338 has the potential of a 375, yeh I think so.  Again this is just an opinion and please people, don't listen to my reasoning, 338 diameter is not allowed in africa so don't try anything not-smart. 

Will I ever use a .338 in a DG hunt ?  Only if its legal, if not, I'll step up to the 375 H&H

Offline Casull

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2006, 12:20:55 PM »
Jjhack, I ask this without trying to be a smartass, but if the .338 is not legal for dangerous game, how many times could you have possibly seen it used on dangerous game?  And if more than a minimum number of times, how many of those examples were less than ideal hits?  Just curious.  :)
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2006, 04:33:32 AM »
Prior to owning my business in RSA I worked as a hunting Guide in SE Alaska. With that experience I have seen several hundred animals killed with both cartridges including Black, Brown, and Grizzly bears.

There was a period during my very early years in that business where the 338 was thought to be the absolute answer to the single guiding and hunting rifle. Lots of Guides were trading in their 375s, 458's and other rifles and getting a 338. Mostly because they wanted a rifle to hunt with and the same rifle to pack on hunts with clients. Most guides I worked with did not have enough money to own a cabinet full of guns for every occasion.

I bought my very first 375HH from one of these guides. He wanted a brand new Model 70 with in 338 caliber. This happened in the winter. ..........Man this guy was pumped and raved about the power flat shooting, lower recoil, and lighter weight. He had such a good following with this rifle several others also bought 338 rifles. Some with enough money owned both, oithers he convinced sold their 375's and bought 338's.

The spring season was great, bears out on the open flats along the coast eating in plain sight. less rainy weather, and thinner less fat bears. The hunting season was also great for them. Then the fall season when working as a guide came along and they were on the salmon streams with <20-50 yards visibility and big fat bears always with soaking wet long thick fur in the water.

By the middle of that first season or after only two bears being hunted, the guides who owned both guns were back to using the 375s and 458's.............within one or two hunts! The guy who started all this and who's 375HH I bought came to me at the end of that season and asked me to sell him his 375HH back to him. I did not really want to sell that rifle. It had a hella long history and was a great shooting CRF rifle.  When asked why the need for the 375HH the reply was

This 338 ain't cuttin it in the bush, way too much shooting to crumple a bear, I'm scared with this thing!


Well during my hunts I always had a 375HH or a 458 win mag, as a loaner while working there. The 375HH I bought from him was my first really big rifle. I had guided a lot of hunters with all kinds of guns. over that time I noticed the average was about 3 shots to get a bear to stop. Some much more and on rare occasion only 1 shot. During my years there I noticed a difference in the 338 and the 375 because of the way Kenny said to me "way to much shooting to crumple a bear".   I too noticed this additional shooting. Not always good shooting and not always too much shooting. However on average the 338 was not the same as the 375HH was. I would NEVER choose the 338 over the 375 if given the choice from my experience.

Years ago in an Magazine article I wrote on hunting big  bears I said right in print:
"The 338 is just right for brown bears and the 375HH is just in case"

My opinion has not changed with African game. Also many don't realize this but Bears are very soft and with an easily damaged structure. Big hoofed game like Bison, buffalo, moose, eland, are far heavier construction and much more difficult to bust up. Then consider Giraffe, Elephant, Rhino, Hippo. Bears although dangerous are not in the same league where the skeleton, skin, fat, and body mass are concerned.

I'm not sure you need to see a dozen elephant, rhino, hippo, or Buffalo shot with a 338 to have a strong understanding on it's likely outcome when you have seen dozens of shots into brown bears and other big plains game speices. Which are by a margin easier to stop then the thick skinned game.

The options are yours to take. I'm only sharing my opinion and personal experience here.



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Offline Syncerus

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2006, 04:42:55 AM »
JJ, you are a gracious and patient man. I've been following a number of threads on several boards and everyone seems to want a piece of you; I have no idea why. Your ideas are moderate, prudent and based on experience. I guess some people just can't take yes for an answer.

Your patience and forbearance are a model for us all.

Syncerus
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2006, 05:58:42 AM »
Quote
I'm always amazed at the experts who feel so strongly about the things they post here. I think those who have seen a Brown bear shot 4-5 times with a 375HH would not consider anything less. I think those who have stood on the beach with a dead brown bear laying there and see that keg sized head would not consider anything smaller.

  I don't consider myself to have done/seen everything in the hunting fields, but i spent 25 years hunting in Alaska and much of it was hunting brown bears.  I've taken some bears, and seen many more shot by others.  I chose a .338 to use as my bear rifle and never felt undergunned.  Yes, even when i was backing up someone else.

  I did see a guy shoot a brown several times with a 378 Wby. (gut shot) and he went home without the bear.  I'll tell you what i thought then and still think now.  He had that mentality that useing a bigger gun was better.  I think he would have been better off shooting more accurately with something with less recoil.

  I've found that well constructed bullets even in 30 cal. will break a bear down and that's a hell of a lot better than a P poor shot from a big bore rifle.  But, i'm NOT aiming this at anyone else's opinion....  It's just what i learned through my experences.

  I can say that over the years i did notice most of the PH's i knew, worried more about the cartridge than what bullets were loaded in them.  Most just bought a certain weight, and never worried if they had Noslers, Cor-loks or what ever in them.  I always have handloaded, so i also strived to buy or make (i also mfg'd bullets) the best bullet possible for the job at hand.  Many times i had guides come in my shop and ask me what ammo "i" thought was best for them, so i always felt that was one reason they used the theory "bigger was better".  Useing bigger cal's does mean you don't have to be as picky on bullet choises as you do with a round with more velocity...  (i'm talking soft points here)

  Anyway, that's what i have to add to this thread...

  DM

Offline gwindrider1

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2006, 12:55:40 PM »
GEMSBUCK,

You should read Jim Carmichael's book, "The Book of the Rifle".  I seem to remember that he writes of taking a Buff with the .338 Win., and stated that "If he were to take a one gun safari, his choice would be the .338.  Obviously, ol' Jim was on safari before many countries enacted their minimum caliber restrictions.  Personally, I prefer a larger bore for that sort of thing. 

Interesting reading though!


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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2006, 01:03:23 AM »
JJ just how  many buffalo hunts have you been on in the last 5 years? How is it an ex blackbear guide from the USA that has a plains game operation whom admitted he has been on few DG hunts knows so much about killing buffalo from 1st hand observation?
 I stand by what I originally stated that a 338wm with 250 NP is leathal buffalo medicine though not legal. In Zimbabwe a Game Scout may give the ok to use it and has done so with even lesser calibers, ie.325WSM
 
gwindrider1 ; Jim Carmichael has killed more buffalo and DG in general that most anyone alive today. Both sport hunting and in culling operations. I must conclude he knows better than any occasional DG hunter what it takes to kill a buffalo. His gun of choice for DG is a 458WM..though his statements about "just 1 gun in Africa for all game.." being a 338wm speaks loud enough for anyone but the most egotistical to hear. GB

Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2006, 04:56:36 AM »
My operation in Africa is in it's 15th year, Your a very rude person to say that "An Ex black bear guide" as if that is some how meaningless. My wildlife management job for the largest tree farm and land owner in the state of Washington was for black bear and lions, My 20 years of seasonal guiding in Alasaka for almost all the big game species is appearantly unknown to you? I lived in South Africa and went to school there. You seem to pull little tid bits of information out of things and then post comments as if you have the whole story of my experience and back ground?

My consessions in RSA are not exclusive to plains game, We hunt every species, I've been involved in the harvest of every single one of them many times over. On one consession alone we have taken over 25 buffalo bulls in the last 5 years, that's just one single property that is 37000 acres in size, just about 50 square miles. With the other properties and the parks permits we have probably done 35-40 in the last five years. Does that help you? Over the last 15 years I'll guess it's been more in the area of 100-125. We shoot more now then we did in the beginning becuase the desire for RSA buffalo is growing every year with the stress and problems of hunting in Zimbabwe. It's one reason the RSA bufflao fetch such a premium price compared to the Zim bulls.

I'm quite frankly stunned that some guy with minimual knowldge of who I am comes onto a forum like this posting as if he has my resume sitting in front of him.  What's that about? It seems each time you post the hole gets deeper where your credibility is concerned.

Like saying that Carmichael has killed more DG then almost anyone alive today..............Are you kidding? Maybe more then anyone you know, but he certainly does not rate in the top 100 or probably even the top 1000. He just writes about it, where many others are doing it as labor and sport but don't have the magazine stories to go with the effort.

Mike Lagrage has killed over 6000 elephants alone, not even counting other speices, Paul Grobler has likely killed 10,000 bufflao and Elephant, these are just two off the top of my head, one poor farmer who's land we used for years killed hundreds of elephant, bufflao and lion on his orchard lands until Kruger put up a few hundred miles of fence to keep them out. You won't read about these guys and their fancy exploits but they exist in huge numbers. Saeed AlMaktoom and his hunting associates have killed many hundreds of DG and probably many hundreds of Buffalo alone. It's really hard to keep track of the numbers after so many years of this.

Maybe your bold statement should have read something like Carmichael has killed more DG then anyother popular gun writer, because he's certainly not in the big leagues where african game managers and landowners are concerned. Or for that matter Middle Eastern Arab hunters or the Spaniards are concerned! America does not have a monopoly on those who like to shoot dangerous game, and they certainly don't have a monopoly on those who can afford to do it!

When we hunt with these folks they don't shoot a five animal package and count pennies. They shoot four or five buffalo in an afternoon of hunting, then maybe a sable or two and then the next day we look for elephant and Rhino. maybe a lion should a nice one be seen. Yeah they shoot 150K worth of game on a single 10-14 day hunt. We have these same hunters return year after year too..........how many anmals is that?

But it's not published in a glossy magazine to sell guns and equipment they promote for a kickback from the manufacturer, or the cost of the hunt to be able to go over and do it by the Manufacturer. These foreign guys will wackem and stackem with the best most experienced hunters I have ever seen in my life. which has been involved professionally with hunting for pushing 30 years now.  I've had Spanish hunters just like most other PH's who have had to take the ammo away from them to prevent over shooting some populations of game. Money is not a thought, just pure shooting and hunting. These guys will just shoot til there are no more bullets left. We had several Spanish hunters that came to us wanting warthogs only during a particular safari. They shot over 100 in a week, then they loaded all the meat onto thier jet and took it back to spain. Americans are not the apex culture of big game hunting. Lots of other countries have an enormous interest in big game hunting. The Belgum people right now and the Portugese are buying up hunting land in RSA as fast as they can.

There is a whole lot more then you seem to realize going on with this business and on this planet. It's a much bigger operation then the limited glossy print American media you reference.  I'll say this in closing. Having lived outside the USA for a portion of my life has been the most eye opening experience I could have ever had. Americans, myself included up til that point really think the whole world is about America, and that America is the core of the earths existance. I was one of those people. However having lived abroad and having been educated abroad I came back knowing that there are hugely successful businesses and operations and wealth far exceeding anything I knew of in the USA. Something I never expected or realized at that point in my life.

What you hear from American writers pertains to other Americans in general, but does not really show the whole world wide perspective on Big game hunting. Especially in Africa, Live there for almost 4 years and meet the people in this business, learn the trade and work in it across the country. It's an eye opening experience to meet people whom nobody has ever heard of that have killed thousands of big and dangerous game, who have had firneds and family gored and stomped or envenomated and killed, or lost limbs. Live with these people for a few years.

Then come back and ask me about what experience I have!
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Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2006, 06:16:29 AM »
My numbers are in the second paragraph, maybe you glossed over that? They may be off by one or two to either way but these should be close enough for government work.

Not sure why I continue to respond to you as you offer nothing constructive...........
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Offline nasem

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2006, 08:02:54 AM »
There is absoloutly no reason for you 2 to have this silly argument.  I do agree a little with JJ Hack here, Gems you shouldn't have attacked the man like that, it was a bit rude.  Regardless of how many DG animals JJ Hack has killed, he has certainly killed more than the 99% of people who come on GBO, so his Opinion (and its ONLY an opinion should be heard and not questioned nor attacked)

I originally started this thread as a bases for "Opinions" only.  So I suggest that the next person who has a post to make should ONLY make it if its meaningful to this thread.

Online Graybeard

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2006, 11:53:08 AM »
Gemsbuck, you've already been warned once in this thread to end the personal attacks and follow the rules. You seem unable to abide by the GBO Terms of Use that you agreed to when you registered here. Unless to cease the personal attacks IMMEDIATELY and get back to discussing facts and opinions and NOT personalities you will not be allowed to continue to post here. It's that simple.

I really care not one whit what you think of Jim Hack or anyone else on here. I DO care about whether you follow the rules I've established for use of this site. Your behavior so far on this thread has been both childish and rude. If you in fact have half the worldly experience you'd have us believe you have you'd have long ago learned how to be more of a gentleman and to follow the rules established.

I care not whether you stay or go, that's a decision you are free to make. BUT if you stay YOU WILL FOLLOW MY RULES. Jim has done so even in the face of your personal attacks. You get more childish with each however. I guess you have no facts to back up your rantings and have a real serious personal dislike for the man apparently. That's fine. Go visit him or call him on the phone or e-mail or PM him and he "might" be willing to talk to you. BUT the attacks stop now or your membership does one or the other. The choice is yours, make it wisely.


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Offline elmer

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2006, 01:10:58 PM »
JJ,

I have to admire the calm you are showing here. You were already at the top of my list if I make it to Africa and that opinion has been reinforced here.

Hope to see you in 2008.

Charles
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Offline Prebanpaul

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2006, 02:50:44 PM »
I  HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD BEFORE, HERE IS MY LAST POINT.   IF YOU CAN KILL A CAPE WITH A BOW YOU CAN KILL ONE WITH A 338 WINMAG WITH OUT QUESTION.
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Offline ballistics

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2006, 09:11:52 AM »
Near the top of this post someone suggested that SD BC MV is not important when shooting dangerous game. this is a foolish statement. I donot wish to discredit experience but - BUT - it has been my experience that I show prejudice in my preference for favorite cartridges when discussing best calibers for game. I have no african hunting experience and donot expect to have that oppertunity. Still I do beileve that two and two always equales four. The fact is that Sd and velocity do matter, and there is no dought that someone who has the proper formulas ro solve this question will tell you in a munute that the hand loader can load the 338 Winchester to acomplish anything the 375 H&H can do with bullet weights under 350 grains including knock down. The 275 grain .338 diameter bullet is larger (with respect to takeing game) than the 300 grain in the .375 diameter. To understand this formulation get a book called (Best Big Game Bullets), and read the new ballistic formulas that give a better understanding of what SD does bring to heavy bullets in any diameter. I can not argue with bigger diameters make bigger holes and leave bigger blood trails, that is no dought true. But I have no dought that the 338 is the equal of the 375 for stopping power when loaded with the proper and I repear PROPER bullets (something that has not been fully addresed here. 

Offline nasem

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2006, 09:20:26 AM »
I have seen the sectional density number of a 275 swift-a-fram 338 bullet, its something around .344 or around there (thats HUGE)..... but in the same time, I think a 270 grain swif-a-fram from a 375 would give a "better" knockdown" power and thats only because the swift-a-fram bullet itself has a property of maintaining more than 90% of its original weight... it will open up and continue to push inward.

I think both bullets will give complete pass-throughs in a cape buffalo, but the 375 would give greater wound chanell and bigger blood trails.  However, I do think if you properly place your bullet in the vitals from either caliber, that cape woun't get too far.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2006, 10:35:00 AM »
Since sectional density of a bullet is determined by the ratio of it's length and weight with some influence in the shape of the point, what does that number really mean with a soft point at the instant of bullet impact?

SD is a clever way to measure the potential from a solid bullet that cannot mushroom. However upon impact that very instant the bullet touches the skin and pushes forward the shape changes with the massive force. The length to weight ratio changes completely when that bullet mushroom.

As an example look at the 180 grain .308 caliber bullets SD and then look at the 180 grain .44 mag SD They are not even close. Yet a .308 caliber bullet after impact would have a very similar length to weight ratio.

I find it an interesting paradox that the one measure people use for penetration is only functional until penetration begins. This is a real problem with using SD for a comparitve measure when anything but solids are used.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2006, 11:03:06 AM »
  I'd like to add to this.  Bigger expanding bullets (lets use the 375/338 here) of equil velocity/construction to a smaller bullet do make a bigger wound channel because of there bigger frontal area, BUT they also don't penetrate as deeply because of there bigger frontal area...  I've seen this many times myself on moose and big bears...

  DM

 

Offline Casull

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2006, 12:01:10 PM »
Quote
As an example look at the 180 grain .308 caliber bullets SD and then look at the 180 grain .44 mag SD They are not even close. Yet a .308 caliber bullet after impact would have a very similar length to weight ratio.

I don't think this statement is accurate.  After penetration, that 180 grain .44 slug will be not much more than a button (and will not penetrate very well).  It will almost completely flatten out on anything deer size or larger.  That's why they are not recommended for large game.  If anything, the difference in weight/length ratio between the .30 cal slug and the .44 cal slug will be even greater after striking large game.  A 300 grain .44 slug of similar construction (same type jacket and core) will easily penetrate a deer or even larger game, while the 180 grain .44 bullet will most likely fail to penetrate.  This is the difference that sectional density provides.
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Offline ballistics

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2006, 12:08:59 PM »
If bullets are of similar construction either solids or softpoints try this formula to compare size for knockdown and penetration.

cw=sd * bw / bd
if cw > bw then
sum = SQR(cw - bw)
if cw< bw then
sum=SQR(bw - cw)
cw = construction weight and makes all bullets equal with regard to penetration and knockdown.
sd= sectional density
bw= bullet weight
bd =bullet diameter

it's all math and true ballistics formulation.

but if all that matters in in your mind is bullet diameter then nothing is going to change that (not even facts).
your example of the .308 diameter and the .430 diameter bullets is a (very poor comparison) to find out how poor run both bullets through the formula above and you will see how poor.

I'll yeild to your experience with regard to latger diameters producing wider blood trails but you are incorrect when suggesting that the 375 is far more powerful that what a good handloader can do with the 338.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2006, 01:20:44 PM »
Interesting comments here which deserve some discussion.
This is your very strongly worded quote
"but you are incorrect when suggesting that the 375 is far more powerful that what a good handloader can do with the 338."

At some point in this discussion we have to talk apples and apples. So we either have to compare factory loads or handloads to compare each of them. They cannot fairly be compared when you talk handloaded 338 and standard/ factory loaded 375. If you want to load up a hot 338 load and compare it to a hot loaded 375HH then the 375HH puts the 338 as a distant follower in the killing potential every time.

A very hot loaded 338 will shoot a 250 grain bullet the same speed that a hot loaded 375 will shoot a 270 grain bullet. On the surface they seem close. However the 375HH has just about 20% greater surface area to impart that force with, That is not some little insignificant amount. That is a huge difference. 20% is a giant leap in size and measurable difference. Not to mention the additional 20 grains of weight.

Nothing you can do with the handloaded 338 can exceed what you can do equally well by handloding up the 375HH. The truth is you can actually outdistance the 338 with the 375HH due to the much bigger case capacity and lower pressure. This is not at all to say I don't like the 338 or any other cartridge, its just not possible to make a smaller case and lighter bullet perform like a bigger case and bigger bullet. The 375HH will never be a 416 Reminington Magnum, nor will the 270 ever be a 30/06 or the 30/06 ever be a 300HH.

It's not possible to achieve these things or the evolution of bigger cartridges would have stopped a long time ago.

Regarding the 180 44 mag bullet and the 30/06 180 grain bullet. You have a little misunderstanding of my post. I likely did not write it clearly enough sorry.

When a 30/06 180 grain bullet impacts flesh it will mushroom causing it's BC to change significantly. Its SD would more closely resemble that of an "UNFIRED" 180 grain 44 mag bullet. The SD value is only of value when the shape of the bullet remains the same shape. Since the SD is calculated on that shape once that shape changes the SD is no longer useful. So it's only of value on solids, not softs or expanding bullets.

Its a safe bet to compare the SD for solids, or on bullets that have not yet impacted  anything. It's not a functional measure where softpoint bullets that have a drastic change of shape after impact are concerned.

I did not intend for anyone to compare each of these after impact, sorry if that text led you that way. As far as bigger diameter bullets not penetrating as far as a smaller diameter bullet. I'll take that bet everytime when I shoot 300 grain Barnes TSX bullets in the 375HH and you shoot any bullet you like in a smaller diameter cartridge of equal velocity.

I have never seen any cartridge or softpoint bullet out penetrate a 300 grain X bullet from a 375 diameter cartridge in my life ........yet anyway. It simply drives deeper then anything from any cartridge I have seen yet. The weight, velocity, and diameter combination is simpley unmatched in it's combination for penetrating big game.  Now we all base what we believe on past experience.

My experience on this comes from seeing Elephant, hippo, rhino, eland, brown bear, elk, bison, giraffe, and cape buffalo being shot with this cartridge and bullet combinatiuon. Your mileage may vary based on your experiences. That's entirely fair and respectable. Once you have seen and experienced something it's a strong element in the way your opinions are formed. I can accept that and live with that as a fair opinion form anyone. I don't however put any faith in just using a calculator and ballistics chart which shows some potential that might be achievable in theory.

I gotta calculate the possibility, then see it in reality otherwise it's just so much fluff to me.
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Offline nasem

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2006, 01:36:30 PM »
JJ, have you ever seen a bullet (any bullet, 375 h&h, 458 win mag, lott, BMG, etc) do a complete pass through... say an elephant ?  like breaking both shoulders or penetrating both lungs and still passing completly through ??

Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2006, 01:47:17 PM »
Yes several times through the lungs, but not when bone has been hit. This is not an exceptional event with Speer tungston solids. I saw a White rhino shot more then 6 times and there were several exits. on the broadside shots.

Just this last season we shot a 6000lb bull Rhino that took two shots through the chest with a 70 caliber black powder rifle and both exited. This was a huge old time british rifle an expensive original, not a reproduction. The gun was probably worth 50k !

Another hunter shot a bull elephant on a hunt with me a couple years ago. Then when the bull was dead it fell exactly like the sphinx in Egypt. After it was confirmed dead and we took some photo's He shot it several times with his old 50 caliber double rifle( another black powder gun) using different loads to see if they would exit. Some of the bullet combinations made it through and several were mushroomed inside under the skin. He was shooting from 50 meters. The soft points he used were Woodlieghs. They looked quite nice when recovered under the exit side skin. The solids he used exited behind the armpit of the ele.
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Offline ballistics

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2006, 02:39:46 PM »
sounds like the old argument between Jack and Elmer. of course Elmer was correct a 250 grain from his .333 OKH will take bigger game than Jack's 270 Winchester and his 139 grain bullet. but as you said that is not apples and apples. the problem with that argument is there was no way to determine which bullet was bigger in their day. of coures it's obvious the 250 grain .333 diameter was much larger. I have heard for 50 years the argument stated as IN MY VAST AND LIMiTLESS EXPERENCE THIS IS TRUE OR THAT IS TRUE. Is it any wonder that ballistic fact has never arrived in the field of hunting. for it to do so would limit the ability of the experienced experts to justify their predjudice views. the problem is you think a .375 diameter 270 grain is bigger and there for more effective on game than a .338 diameter 250 grain bullet. It just ain't so. And until you learn to use the formula I gave you you'll never know why.
when the formula is used correctly

Bt Dia       Bt Wt       Construction Wt
.430         180 gr      69 gr
.308         180 gr      163 gr
.338         250 gr      235 gr
.375         270 gr      205 gr
.375         285 gr      228 gr
.375         300 gr      251 gr
.338         275 gr      277 gr

regardless of how you cut it the 180 grain 44 caliber bullet regardless of construction type or velocity can never equal the 180 grain .308 bullet as a big game bullet.

I see this is going no where, you know what you know, and I know better. There is nothing wrong with you believing your experience gives you inside knowlage of hunting dangeroug game I'm sure it does, I'm just not sure how much of it is based on the mucho attitude that real men shoot big guns.

Offline JJHACK

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2006, 04:05:48 PM »
"I see this is going no where, you know what you know, and I know better. There is nothing wrong with you believing your experience gives you inside knowlage of hunting dangeroug game I'm sure it does, I'm just not sure how much of it is based on the mucho attitude that real men shoot big guns. "

Wow that's classic! I work as a Professional hunter, but don't mistake that for my only skill set. I have also worked as an electrical engineer since 1984 for Rockwell. As you might guess, I have just a tiny little bit of education and knowledge of physics. You never know who your dealing with on the internet, you can't just assume the folks you are reading from, or writing to, are all bubba's. Some of us actually may know a thing or two about the math behind the actual real world function.

A 375 is not a big gun, it's simply a medium bore rifle. Big guns start at 458 diameter as classified by African Standards. So there is no "macho" effect in the conversation in regards to the 375HH. As a matter of fact the 375HH is quite a bit easier to shoot then many smaller over bore magnums I have shot.  I see no relationship to a comparison between the Elmer Kieth and Jack OConner analogy you offer on this. Both rifles shoot their bullets at almost the same speed. The whole Jack/ Elmer debate was in regards to light fast bullet VS slower heavy bullets? Am I  missing something with that?

In any case you are certainly entitled to the opinions you have. Its no loss to me, or anyone else reading this. This is  just a simple internet hunting forum filled with thousands of opinions from people who don't know anything about each other.  I have no interest in a angry debate on this, because I've actually been there done it, and get paid as a Professional in this field for the advice I offer.  I know what I'm saying is correct because I've actually seen the actual results in person!

The visitors reading these posts can make of the comments what they wish and decide for themselves what they think.
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Offline dave hall

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2006, 01:50:45 PM »
JJ a lot of these topics are a lost cause. ::)Dave.
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Offline STJ

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2006, 05:06:58 AM »
Come on now…Any ‘real world’ Engineer (not JUST a number cruncher) knows and has dealt with the issue…”Just because it looks good on paper doesn’t mean it will actually work”.

JJ has a very good point about the changing SD of a bullet as it passed through the game.  There is no calculation that takes account of that, but it does play a big role in how that bullet is going to perform. 

People have too big of a fixation with the ‘numbers’ a cartage produces.  These numbers are based on travel through free air.  It’s a whole new ball game once the bullet enters the game.

It has been ‘SEEN’ in actual events (not calculated) time and time again that a 475 Linebaugh will out penetrate a 454 Casull even though the 454 has more Foot Pounds of energy.  Taylor came up with his TKO formula (based on his experiences) and works pretty good even though it’s not based on any mathematical derivation or calculated physics.

That is what experience is about, you can’t base everything on calculations alone, otherwise everything would be black and white.  It would make life real easy if it was just that simple.

Anyone who bases everything off ‘just the books’ is living in there own little shelter.  You got to have the real world experience to go with it, to really understand it.

How can anyone put up a real argument with someone that has ‘SEEN’ 10x + or more likely a 100x + more big game shot than they have.  You don’t have anything to stand on….Keyboard Warrior   ::)

Offline nasem

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2006, 06:12:37 AM »
Well STJ.....  I strongly feel that a 275 grain bullet (suppose the swif-a-frame) from a 338 caliber WILL out penetrate a 275 grain (also swift-a-fram) bullet from, say a 375 h&h.... I know its not a fair comparison since the h&h round works better with 300 grainers, but its just to show that the "skinner" bullet with the same weight as the "fatter" bullet wount open up as much in diameter and therfor will keep on pushing forward deeper and deeper.... Is it more lethal, maybe not, but it certainly penetrates more

Offline lgm270

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Re: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting
« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2006, 12:53:51 PM »
Like others on this thread, I was intrigued by the idea that a .338"/275 grain bullet would be superior to a .375"/270 grain bullet if both were driven at the same velocity.  Remembering Elmer Keith stories of his long throated .338 Win Mag on a full length Mauser action and his use of the old Speer 275 grain .338 bullet, I "long throated" an M-70  .338 Super Grade to take .338's loaded with 250 grain noslers seated to a cartridge overall length equal to 3.6", the same as the 375 H&H.  I obtained 2,800 fps with the 250 grain Nosler Partition and 2,700 fps with the Swift 275 Grain A-Frame bullet.  My reasoning was the same as nasem's:  same weight bullet but smaller diameter and increased SD would increase bullet performance and give greater penetration than the  larger  .375" 270 bullet at substantially the same speed. 

I have no experience in hunting dangerous or extremely large animals, except elk hunting.  The gist of this thread is JJHack's real life, real time experience and observations of the effect of larger diameter bullets and his conclusion that incresed small diameter weight and SD is not as effective as larger diameter bullets.  I have insufficient personal experience to  have an opinion, but other highly experienced and well respected hunters  support JJHack's experience and conclusions.

Elmer Keith wrote that in his experience, an optiminally loaded 8x57 mauser  shooting .323" bullets was a better killer than the more popular 30/06 shooting .308" bullets.  An outspoken advocate of large bore rifles, Keith said he liked big bullets because "they let in lots of air and let out lots of blood." What's the difference between a 220 grain .323" bullet and a 220 grain .308" bullet operating at approximately the same velocity:  Bullet diameter.

 In the American Rifleman magazine, a California game warden wrote of his experience in observing thousands of  hunters  over many years and concluded that the .243 caliber rifles were not reliable on deer. He said the .250 Savage was noticably better in killing power.  Why would this be when the .243 and the 250 Savage are seemingly so close in power?  Bullet diameter would appear to be  the reason.   

Similiarly, if you review the threads on this and other web sites about guys who hunt deer with .44 magnum carbines, they describe decisive killing power  even with the modest velocity of this pistol round when fired in a carbine.    The same observations appear in threads describing the effects of  200 grain .358" bullets in  the .35 Reming,  358 Winchester and the 35 Whelan when used on deer.

It would seem that all of this other  data about the killing power of larger diameter bullets, even at modest velocities,  corroborates JJHack's own observations and conclusions that larger diameter bullets achieve superior results  by causing more destrictive wound channels, larger exit wounds  and good blood trails for easy follow up and tracking.   

As between the .338/275 and the .375/270, my vote goes to the .375!