Author Topic: 338 win mag and Dangerous game Hunting (Read 26227 times)

Drilling Man · « **Reply #60 on:** December 26, 2006, 03:44:12 PM »

First off i'll admit right up front that i have NEVER fired even one TSX bullet... I have fired thousands of Noslers and many other brands includeing bonded bullets...

I'm sure there's guys here that have more hunting experience than me, but i've put my time in hunting in Alaska and also a bit in Canada and a few states in the lower 48... Also i designed and mfg .375 bonded core copper jacketed bullets for quite a few years and tested every bullet i could get my hands on at that time...

In "my" test on game animials and test media the .338's out penetrated the .375's that i've tested. My most favorite .338 bullet for moose and big bears has been the no longer made 275 grain Speer. I've seen this bullet out penetrate enough different 270 grain .375 bullets to declare it the winner... (375 H&H vs. .338 Mag)

I saw .375 bullets under the hide, and others still in animials that i was convinced had i been useing my .338 they would have exited... I do prefer an exit hole on the animials i harvest...

As for what one killed game better? All i can tell you is, of the animials that were hit properly i couldn't see any difference. The ones that were hit poorly it didn't seem to matter and they needed follow up shots to anchor them..

Anyway, there's no argument from me, use what works for YOU and the animials you hunt and stay with it!

DM

nasem · « **Reply #61 on:** December 26, 2006, 04:35:33 PM »

Why don't you try the 275 gr .338 diam swif-a-fram.... those, I hear, out penetrate the speer 275s.... give em a try and let us know

JJHACK · « **Reply #62 on:** December 26, 2006, 07:39:04 PM »

If lethal performance in some opinions is to be based soley on penetration then why not just shoot monolithic solids and be done with it?

However I think we all know the reason solids are not chosen for typical big game hunting.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #63 on:** December 27, 2006, 03:13:39 AM »

If that answer about solids was aimed at me, then i think you missed this part...

Quote

As for what one killed game better? All i can tell you is, of the animials that were hit properly i couldn't see any difference. The ones that were hit poorly it didn't seem to matter and they needed follow up shots to anchor them..

I think a lot of "what kills better" is subject to what cal. the owner loves best. I've stood there and watched a hunter nearly jump up and down (no exaggeration) about how well his 375 killed an animial when if fact i was silently looking at the same thing he was and haveing much different thoughts...

I've seen a guy break one shoulder on a quartering shot on a bear and the bear went down only to turn and run... The hunter tells me, "did you see how this 375 turned that bear?" I've seen the same thing with a 264 Win. mag... ect.. ect.. soooo.....

I've used a 375 in the field, great cartridge, but for ME it just wasn't any better than my 338 for what i was hunting... That certainly doesn't mean it won't be better for you for what ever it is that you are hunting.

DM

jro45 · « **Reply #64 on:** January 16, 2007, 07:41:42 AM »

I own the 338 Rem. Ultra Mag. That rifle can get 5000 Ft Lbs of energy with the 250gr bullet. It can also shoot a 300gr bullet at 2720 FPS with 4927 ft lbs of engery. It still isn't big enought for the dangerous game in Africa. Don't take it as wrong it could do it but it isn't alouded.

deltecs · « **Reply #65 on:** April 05, 2007, 06:40:46 PM »

Wow, what a controversial post. I live and hunt in a remote part of South Central Alaska and have also hunted DG that have claws and not very good temperaments on occasion. I agree with the PH that cross section of bullets substantially effect game animals when hit. The greater the cross section, the greater the punch. There is no argument from ballistics experts on this. Yes, the energy levels are higher with faster bullets of smaller diameter in many cases and they hit hard. However, facts have shown that the .460 Weatherby Magnum actually and in reallity does not penetrate as well as the .458 Winchester Magnum when both are using factory loads. The bullets made for .458 caliber are made for velocities in the near range of the Winchester Magnum and not in the range of the Weatherby. Yes the .338 Winchester 250 gr in the heart kills just as well as the .375, .416, .458, or the .257 for that matter. However, it is not nearly as good as the larger bores moving at modest velocities around 2400-2500 fps for anchoring game. Mathermatically this is proven with the formula for momentum. A .338 250 grain at 2650 fps has approximately 95 pound feet of momentum. The 9.3 x62 286 gr at 2400 fps has a momentum value of over 98 pound feet. It also has a cross sectional area substantially larger than the .338, so it must hit with a bit more authority. This is proven on game for over 75 years in Africa on DG. The .333 Rimless Nitro Express has a good rep on game there and did kill DG in the hands of some hunters. They relate though that the .333 is not a DG rifle and do not recommend it as such. It is comparable to the .338 Winchester if loaded to the same pressure so the remarks apply equally as well to the .338. The .338 Winchester is a fine caliber and a true classic. It is a good choice for most game, just not the best choice for some game.
I couldn't help putting in my own common sense to this debate.
Thanks for the chance.

Paparock · « **Reply #66 on:** August 23, 2007, 09:16:54 AM »

Erased by Paparock

rex6666 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 24, 2007, 09:01:55 AM »

I have never hunted in Africa, i have stood on the beach with a good looking woman.
I stayed at a HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS once
I have read all of this.
If you go out in your back yard get yo two bricks, hit one with a 2 lb. hammer with a 36"
handle as hard as you can swing it.
then hit the other brick with an 8 lb hammer with a 36" handle and swing it with the same
force.
You (i think) will be able to see the diff.
This is what you are arguing about. pretty simple to me.
THOSE THAT CAN, DO, THOSE THAT THINK THEY CAN TALK ABOUT IT

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #68 on:** August 25, 2007, 01:27:15 PM »

I forgot the question so I will try to continue from your theory...

The 8lb hammer in this case has 20% more surface area. When you make that swing and stampeed the entire pile of bricks down the trail and the dust settles, you have a much better chance of finding a mortar trail.

This will steady your nerves somewhat and keep you from walking beyond that brick which may be lying in ambush.

PS: No DG experience here unless you count the times that the bull chased me across the pasture.
PS on PS: Please do send a pic of the good looking Woman at the beach!

DGPRO53 · « **Reply #69 on:** June 03, 2012, 05:21:50 AM »

Quote from: Yukon Jack on May 16, 2006, 12:59:41 PM

I can't believe you guys. Here we have an African PH who has probably been in on more African game killed than all of us put together has seen alive on the hoof and you're going to argue with him on which cartridge is better for African game... his PROFESSION!??!!

Lord, help us. I don't think there's an African PH alive that would agree the 338 Win Mag is as good a DG round as the 375 H&H. Gut pile ballistics are more certain than armchair ballistics. Believe I'll listen to JJ on this one.

More importantly, why would you even care if the 338 is good DG cartridge, it's ILLEGAL to use in most African countries for that purpose anyway.

+1
JJ clearly knows his stuff...in my 53 yrs. as a PH I can tell he what he so eloquently states is all you need to know, and his technical background enhances it further!
I have taken or been party to every kind of big game & DG on the planet hundreds of times over...and if a client showed up in the "Dark Continent" with a .338 for DG, I would feel he is the DG deserving to be shot. The .375 H&H and variants upward are the minimum for a REASON, period !
It is apparent that most who have participated in the thread are clueless, and paper pushing armchair ballisticians & DG hunters of little or no African experience.

BTW, compared to African DG, AK bears are sissies.[/size][/color]

BBF · « **Reply #70 on:** June 03, 2012, 08:26:41 AM »

Quote from: JJHACK on October 05, 2006, 06:16:29 AM

My numbers are in the second paragraph, maybe you glossed over that? They may be off by one or two to either way but these should be close enough for government work.

Not sure why I continue to respond to you as you offer nothing constructive...........

Your patience alone qualifies you for Sainthood !!

BTW. Your remarks that there is a much bigger world out there then most Americans think is 100% correct.

BBF · « **Reply #71 on:** June 03, 2012, 08:30:42 AM »

Quote from: Prebanpaul on October 29, 2006, 02:50:44 PM

I HAVE POSTED ON THIS THREAD BEFORE, HERE IS MY LAST POINT. IF YOU CAN KILL A CAPE WITH A BOW YOU CAN KILL ONE WITH A 338 WINMAG WITH OUT QUESTION.

Why is it you feel entitled to SHOUT??

BBF · « **Reply #72 on:** June 03, 2012, 08:51:31 AM »

After 3 pages of this I have cause to add two more malcontents to my Ignore list.

Casull · « **Reply #73 on:** June 03, 2012, 02:44:11 PM »

My question is why are you two even posting to a thread which is 5 years old? Something about that smells like malcontent.

DGPRO53 · « **Reply #74 on:** June 03, 2012, 05:55:44 PM »

Quote from: Casull on June 03, 2012, 02:44:11 PM

My question is why are you two even posting to a thread which is 5 years old? Something about that smells like malcontent.

Well, sorry there...did not notice the dates, and came upon this from the net.
Still a valid subject, but reading back I see it is pretty well played out.

lgm270 · « **Reply #75 on:** June 04, 2012, 03:29:40 AM »

Quote from: DGPRO53 on June 03, 2012, 05:55:44 PM

Quote from: Casull on June 03, 2012, 02:44:11 PM
My question is why are you two even posting to a thread which is 5 years old? Something about that smells like malcontent.

Well, sorry there...did not notice the dates, and came upon this from the net.
Still a valid subject, but reading back I see it is pretty well played out.

This is a timeless subject and there's no need to apologize. Welcome to Graybeard.

DGPRO53 · « **Reply #76 on:** June 04, 2012, 03:07:54 PM »

Well then, as they say, "let the games begin"...lol?
Actually, kinda amusing that his thread went so long 6 yrs. ago, as why does anyone contest what took many years & much experience in so many countries, by so many PHs & Guides as to what works as a minimum for DG. As was said by some and known by many, anything can be killed by almost any caliber...(almost, but not really advisable to go after the thick hide of the the Big 5 w/.22LR ) ...but STOPPING with authority takes some REAL tangibles as well as some intangibles.

Those who have been there know exactly what I mean!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #77 on:** June 04, 2012, 05:25:04 PM »

Quote from: nasem on May 08, 2006, 01:56:55 PM

I know the legal limit for african DG is 375 (minimum).....My question is, has anyone seen or heard how effective a 338 win mag is on dangerous game (lions / cape buff / even elephants) ?

I belive you can load up the 338 up to 300 grain bullets. and we all know its defenetly got the power to knock down anything.

Bascially, Im just trying to underestand the full potential of this round. Im sure JJhack has some input

While 375 H&H is the legal limit for some game in Africa other game smaller calibers can be used on 4 of the big seven dangerous game. The Buffalo, the Elephant and the Rino all can absorb bullets. And they had to draw a line somewhere.
I once whent to a trophy room where there were two world series trophy's and a lion, along with other things, but I asked what he shot the Lion with and was told 300 Win Mag. I was deflated.
The 338 Win Mag is a great round. The round is perfect for animals like Bear, Elk, Bison, as well as other smaller animals. Since buying one a few years ago I have grown to love mine and find it more than just a big game rifle. The round is easy to shoot, extremly accurate and does not turn meat into jelly.
I also have a 375 H&H and looking at the ballistic tables the 338 passes the 375 in Foot pounds at the 300 yard mark.

DGPRO53 · « **Reply #78 on:** June 05, 2012, 11:38:29 AM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on June 04, 2012, 05:25:04 PM

Quote from: nasem on May 08, 2006, 01:56:55 PM
I know the legal limit for african DG is 375 (minimum).....My question is, has anyone seen or heard how effective a 338 win mag is on dangerous game (lions / cape buff / even elephants) ?

I belive you can load up the 338 up to 300 grain bullets. and we all know its defenetly got the power to knock down anything.

Bascially, Im just trying to underestand the full potential of this round. Im sure JJhack has some input
While 375 H&H is the legal limit for some game in Africa other game smaller calibers can be used on 4 of the big seven dangerous game. The Buffalo, the Elephant and the Rino all can absorb bullets. And they had to draw a line somewhere.
I once whent to a trophy room where there were two world series trophy's and a lion, along with other things, but I asked what he shot the Lion with and was told 300 Win Mag. I was deflated.
The 338 Win Mag is a great round. The round is perfect for animals like Bear, Elk, Bison, as well as other smaller animals. Since buying one a few years ago I have grown to love mine and find it more than just a big game rifle. The round is easy to shoot, extremly accurate and does not turn meat into jelly.
I also have a 375 H&H and looking at the ballistic tables the 338 passes the 375 in Foot pounds at the 300 yard mark.

As has been said by many here, it is not just about "ft. lbs.",but also the width, SD, velocity, bullet design etc.

BBF · « **Reply #79 on:** June 06, 2012, 02:11:07 AM »

How much African game( big stuff) is taken at the 300+ yard distance? I'm guessing pretty much zero,zip nix, none.

RevJim · « **Reply #80 on:** June 06, 2012, 04:36:17 AM »

My last trip to South Africa was on a big farm ( ranch!) SE of Joberg. We were after Black Wildebeest. As usual, we hunted out of a little Toyota p/u. One very foggy AM, we were sitting at an intersection of farm roads, and three gigantic Rhino trotted right past us, 3ft away! My 35 Whelen AI felt like a tooth pick! ha. Later that day, we drove by a feeding cape buffalo, he looked like a "Limousine" bull at the Houston Fat Stock show! ha. Killing them is one thing, "stopping" them is a whole different animal; those suckers are huge! ha.
I have a friend who used his .375 H&H and 300 Barnes TSX on a tuskless bull elephant with a head shot! It worked swell he said. I have used Barnes X in my Whelen AI, both the 250 and 200 and they penetrate like crazy. I still think "I" would prefer a .458 Lott or .450 Rigby, ha.

RevJim · « **Reply #81 on:** June 06, 2012, 05:01:32 AM »

Quote from: BBF on June 06, 2012, 02:11:07 AM

How much African game( big stuff) is taken at the 300+ yard distance? I'm guessing pretty much zero,zip nix, none.

I would imagine "no long distance shots on bear" would be also be a good idea. I know folks shoot black bear at long range, but Browns and Mountain Grizzly....maybe with a Barrett .50? ha. Hey, if I was the guide, I wouldn't apreciate having to follow up a wounded bear, especially in the alders. My minimum rifle would be a Marlin guidegun with Garrett ammo. A short .458 winmag may be best. The old British paradox guns worked OK on big stuff, no reason why a short pump 12 with 3" Dixie Slug 730gr Terminators wouldn't work on a big bear up close...I wouldn't know, the most dangerous animals I ever shot were big hogs and a wounded Gemsbok ( 41" skewers!)

us920669 · « **Reply #82 on:** June 08, 2012, 06:19:23 AM »

Just another 2 cents - my African PH was quite negative about the 338. I stuck up for the cartridge, since I loved it and still do, so he waved his hand and mumbled something about "Well, maybe for North American". I think they are tired of Americans showing up with a 338 and thinking they've got some real artillery. Later in the hunt I took a trophy Eland with a 30-06, pretty hot 180 gr. It was a clean side shot but only lodged in the heart. PH told me later they were being informally urged to not let people shoot Elands with anything under 7 or 300 Mag, so I mentioned the 338. He bit his lip and got real quiet. 338 is a great cartridge, but DG? Please, not if I'm within a mile of the beast.
You gotta see how fast a Cape Buff can run and change direction to believe it. I think I read once that lots of settlers shot them with 7x57, and a few got turned into stains in the sand.

BBF · « **Reply #83 on:** June 08, 2012, 07:05:29 AM »

Quote from: us920669 on June 08, 2012, 06:19:23 AM

......
......................... I think I read once that lots of settlers shot them with 7x57, and a few got turned into stains in the sand.

+ E-phants with military type bullets into the brain if I recall it correctly.

us920669 · « **Reply #84 on:** June 08, 2012, 08:14:15 AM »

That's right, Bell did that, he even got up on the shoulders of a tracker to get the angle right. Of course, he was Karamojo Bell.

gendoc · « **Reply #85 on:** June 08, 2012, 10:56:41 AM »

Quote from: JJHACK on May 09, 2006, 01:48:15 PM

I don't care what bullet you use from a 338 it will never be a 375HH. I don't care what bullet and load you use in a 375HH it will never be a 416, nor will the 416 of any flavor be a 458 Lott. There is a reason why the diameter of 375 or 9mm is the minimum size bullet. It's the diamater and bullets weight that gets the job done with authority, not the velocity.

Hope this makes sense to you folks.

i wish this was posted in all centerfire threads here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

efremtags · « **Reply #86 on:** June 25, 2012, 02:57:26 PM »

JJ, when you hunted in AK, what was the bullet(s) of choice in that era. I know .338 was developed around 250 gr SP, as a solution to 60s era bullets to mitigate jacket separation. It's 06 velocity with 70 gr more bullet. Todays bullets are no comparison.

I think the issues here are apples-oranges. I know the 338 advocates are comparing best in class ammo/ ballistics, to what is likely middle of road 375, whiich is fair to say the gap may not be as big as some tout in performance if that is the case.

I am totally confused on the 180 gr comparison pistol/rifle. That is as apples/oranges as it gets. Not sure of the point.

I know a lot of what has been written about in Africa pre80s was predominately standard sp ammo, not the premiums we see today, so it's easy to see how conclusions can be made with Mismatched data points.

Personally I see the argument moot, 338 isn't legal, falls below min power requirements, hunting isn't about killing, it's about safe recovery. Apples- apples bullets/ ballistics, larger dia will hold the edge.

Ihunt ny whitetail with 12g slug in my county. I have used 50 cal mz and smaller shptgun and pistol calipers, but when hunting small land parcels, my goal is to keep animals inside a 100 yds after the shot. If killing capacity was my only measure, I could use much less gun and kill game, but I likely would only recover half under my conditions.

MTNRGR · « **Reply #87 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:00:02 PM »

WOW, just read the entire "debate", awesome.

geezerbiker · « **Reply #88 on:** April 19, 2013, 06:18:44 PM »

I too just read the entire thread. It reminds me of an article I once read that mentioned bison hunters in the old west preferred the .45-120 over all other guns. Now I know why...

If I'm ever rich enough for a hunting trip to SA, JJ I owe you a couple rounds of your favorite beverage and it would be more than worth it to hear any more stories you had to tell...

Odds are the old dangerous game I will encounter is marriage and I hope to escape that one alive...

Tony

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #89 on:** May 05, 2013, 01:47:50 AM »

heres some common sense from a guy thats actually killed things. I tire of guys who claim there 270 is as good as a 7mag or there 7mag is as good as a 300 mag or a 338 is as good as a 375 and this goes on and on. The 338 was never intended to be a dangerous game stopping rifle. Its a fairly flat shooting gun thats a step up from the 300 mags at taking large thin skinned game like elk and moose or even big bear. Its not a gun for hunting elephant. Yes you can aruge that with a well placed shot it will kill anything on the planet but then so will a 22lr. So what! Thats hardly an argument for what is proper to use.

Quote from: JJHACK on May 09, 2006, 01:48:15 PM

Just speaking from my own opinion, and not regarding any laws or common practice.

The dangerous game animals need diameter more then anything else. Free flowing blood trails have such a great importance when following up Dangerous game that is going to do everything within its power to get even with you.

I don't care about SD, BC, ME, none of that matters as much as being able to see and follow blood at a comfortable walk while also being able to look ahead for the final encounter with the animal you have just shot.

You can load up the 338 to be a very powerful rifle. You can also load up a 300 mag and a 300/378 mag with 250 grain bullets going much faster then the 338 and with far more muzzle energy. That however is not relevent to the "smack" delivered from a slower bullet with greater diameter.

I don't care what bullet you use from a 338 it will never be a 375HH. I don't care what bullet and load you use in a 375HH it will never be a 416, nor will the 416 of any flavor be a 458 Lott. There is a reason why the diameter of 375 or 9mm is the minimum size bullet. It's the diamater and bullets weight that gets the job done with authority, not the velocity.

Hope this makes sense to you folks.