416 Rigby / 416 rem / or just skip and go 458 LOTT

[nasem]

Im trying to underestand the potential of each one of these.  I am in the process of learning how to reload so, Yes I will be reloading for each one of them.

Im thinking of buying one of these rounds and that would be the largest and last gun I buy in the "big bore" catagory so I wanna make a choice that, hopefully in 5-10 years make it to Africa or alaska.

For starters, if I end up getting one of the 416s, I'll start with some very light loads, like 350-400 grain at 1800-1900 FPS (I need to learn to handle the recoil first).  or if its the 458 lott, then same idea, light loads for practice.

What Im trying to underestand is, what is the real difference between 416 rig and 416 rem.  If you reload, don't they both get almost same power potential results with maybe the 416 rig beatting it by little ?

Whatever Gun I pick, it must be in stainless steel, So I'll see what there is out there.

thanks guys

[nasem]

Ok, I think its official, stainless steel 458 lott = none existant (unless I get ruger No. 1)..... which I don't, I prefer bolt gun.

[Redhawk1]

Reloading the 416 Rigby will edge out the 416 Rem Mag.  I had to make the same choice you are faced with now. But I did not go the stainless rough. The 458 Lott is a great round and you can shoot 458 Win Mags in it. But I chose the 416 Rigby myself. In my opinion the 416 Rigby will take anything that walks.    But I don't think you will go wrong with any of your choices.

Last year I took a 1800 pound Water buffalo with one shot with a 300 gr. Barnes X at 135 yards with my 416 Rigby.

[nasem]

Ok, well so far, Im leaning towards either the 416 rigby or the 458 Lott.

416 rigby becuase it can obtain the same velocities as the 416 rem BUT with alot less pressure (and thats a little easier on the brass).  Redhawk, how many times can you reload a single 416 rigby brass ?

458 LOTT, thats just, enough said, its defenetly got more knockdown power than the 416.  But trajectory wise, maybe 416 with ligher bullets (like 250-300 grains) will work better with shots for around 300 yard-ish.

Trajectory matters here because, in about 3 years, me and my brother are planning a Bison Hunting trip either in colorado or somewhere else.  I already have a 375 h&h (for him) and Now Im looking for a gun to use for my self.  I was told that most bison shots are under 100 yards BUT SOMETIMES you might want to go beyond that.

Regarding what gun to use, I haven't gotten a clue.  I know CZ-550 american Magnum offers 458 lott and 416 riby in 25" barrel and everything is nice and handy.  But I have no idea how well they perform in cold conditions (10-15 deg).  As matter of fact, CZ is the only gun I can afford.  Dakota guns are like $3000+ (no thanks).

[EsoxLucius]

A Ruger M77 Mark II Deluxe Magnum in 416 Rigby would be pretty nice.  Should be able to find one for about $1500 and with a new trigger ($90) that should do it.

[nasem]

You see, since this is going to be a strickly DG gun.  I wanted to spend about 800-100 for the gun and another 300-400 on a DG scope.  The last thing I want is my scope failing on me.  Not sure if I want a scope or not, but maybe its not a bad idea to get a low variable scope 1.5-5.

I really didn't want to get over the $1300 limit.  I know If i get a CZ for 800, I have to spend another 200 bolting the stock (to prevent it from splitting).  so thats 1000 right off the bat

[GEMSBUCK]

a CZ American safari Mag in 416 R will run in the neighborhood of $730 that's the price in my dealer's shop. A crossbolt IMHO is not neccassary scope base is milled into the reciever and rings included. A good Leupold M8 2.5 Heavy Duplex (lifetime guarantee0 is another $225. That puts the pkg under 1K.
 A Charles Daly 458 WM is $571 same deal with the scope is cheaper yet, the Daly is really a Mauser 98 action.
 if both those costs are still too steep for you there are tons of guys selling used DG calibers at every gun show that bought one thinking they would need it somewhere down the road but never got on that DG hunt. and that DG couldn't care less what the gun looked like that just deflated his lungs.

[nasem]

GEMSBUCK ~

some of the folks here have had troubles with thier stock splitting while shooting.  One of our oldest members (god rests his soul) LAWDOG, had that problem while shooting.  Its a horrible story and it was very gory / bloody when the stock split while he fired a round.

[Redhawk1]

Ok, well so far, Im leaning towards either the 416 rigby or the 458 Lott.

416 rigby becuase it can obtain the same velocities as the 416 rem BUT with alot less pressure (and thats a little easier on the brass).  Redhawk, how many times can you reload a single 416 rigby brass ?

458 LOTT, thats just, enough said, its defenetly got more knockdown power than the 416.  But trajectory wise, maybe 416 with ligher bullets (like 250-300 grains) will work better with shots for around 300 yard-ish.

Trajectory matters here because, in about 3 years, me and my brother are planning a Bison Hunting trip either in colorado or somewhere else.  I already have a 375 h&h (for him) and Now Im looking for a gun to use for my self.  I was told that most bison shots are under 100 yards BUT SOMETIMES you might want to go beyond that.

Regarding what gun to use, I haven't gotten a clue.  I know CZ-550 american Magnum offers 458 lott and 416 riby in 25" barrel and everything is nice and handy.  But I have no idea how well they perform in cold conditions (10-15 deg).  As matter of fact, CZ is the only gun I can afford.  Dakota guns are like $3000+ (no thanks).

nasem, I have one set of brass that I have loaded 6 times already and not one sign of case wear.

I have a CZ-550 Safari Magnum with a Leupold Vera XIII 1.5X5 on top of it with the CZ mounts. I took my gun to the gunsmith and had him glass bed the stock and float the barrel. He did not think another cross bolt was needed so I did not have that done. I am getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards. My last three shot were all one raged hole.  I am going on a Bison hunt to South Dakota in October 2007 and I am going to use my 416 Rigby for that hunt. My buddy wants me to take my Shiloh Sharps and BP cartridges, but I like to idea of the 416 Rigby.  

[nasem]

So far, im leaning towards the 416 rigby.  Redhawk do you of any light loads for the 300-350 grain bullet ?

[Redhawk1]

So far, im leaning towards the 416 rigby.  Redhawk do you of any light loads for the 300-350 grain bullet ?

The 300 gr. Barnes X I use is near max load. But in my opinion the recoil is manageable. I have a mercury recoil reducer installing in the stock which helps with the recoil. I drilled the stock myself.

[nasem]

I highly doubt Im ready to load maximum loads for the 416 and shoot em comfortably.  I have a 375 h&h and factory ammo gives me some trouble after 15-20 rounds.  

I have speer reloading manual #13 at home, when I get home tonight i'll check and see if they have any "small" loads for the 416.  Possibly the smallest i can start off with.

[msorenso]

Oh man they are all sweet..   JMO  I have a 458 wm and 416 rem mag and ifI was you I would  go with the lott or rigby, no reason I just would if I was in your shoes.

[AK Fireman]

Go with the Rigby if you want versatility and the Lott if you want strictly close up stuff.
Like I said the other day, Barnes used to make a 325gr for the Rigby that
gave amazing ballistics. Look at this link and compare the muzzle velocity/energy of all loads and then look across the board. The 300 is faster out of the gate but looses its steam after 300yds. But for energy the 325gr outperforms across the board. [url http://www.cpcartridge.com/416rigby-B.htm
This will show that more weight doesn't always equal more energy.

I use neck dies and have reloaded 3 times and shot 4 and the brass looks great. I was turned on to the neck dies by a guy who said he was on his 9th reload without any problems.

The CZ has a rock solid action and barrel but the stock should be replaced or bedded. I had to buy my rings seperatly for about 65.00 and I also had to get a new magazine spring from the factory (no charge) the one it came with was weak and wouldn't feed the last round properly.

If I had it to do over I would buy the same thing again.

[nasem]

wow, that 325 barnes X is freaking nice.  Only -43 Inches at 500 yards, man thats similar to the balistics of a 160 grain 7mm mag lol.  You REALLY got me thinking 416 rigby now.

[GEMSBUCK]

GEMSBUCK ~

some of the folks here have had troubles with thier stock splitting while shooting.  One of our oldest members (god rests his soul) LAWDOG, had that problem while shooting.  Its a horrible story and it was very gory / bloody when the stock split while he fired a round.

nasty thing a split stock though with the loads your talking about I doubt it. you'll find flaws in anything made by man if stock problems cause you to fret by a composite.
 I have a Mdl 69A 22LR that split a stock while shooting. size isn't the factor you think it is on stock splits. Ask any woodworker my old man was a cabinet man for 50 yrs and built about a zillion wood stocks for himself and friends. none had a crossbolt though  .45+up were always bedded. Bed it and forget it on anything over .30.

[AK Fireman]

wow, that 325 barnes X is freaking nice.  Only -43 Inches at 500 yards, man thats similar to the balistics of a 160 grain 7mm mag lol.  You REALLY got me thinking 416 rigby now.

Thats why I say the 416 Rigby is the best all around cartridge of the big bores.
Unfortunately Barnes discontinued the 325gr . There is a company called Lost River Ballistics that will make a 325gr for a small fee and a minimum order. They claim their bullets have a higher BC than Barnes X and even show a 350gr at over 3000 fps, I find that hard to believe but it might be worth  trying.
I shot my CZ today and had a same whole 3 shot group @ 100yds with 350gr Barnes, what a great feeling.  I shot the other two bullets at a steel plate( 24"X24") that hangs at the 430yd limit of the range, It rang like a bell with each shot.

[crash87]

nasem, I own and shoot a Rigby/CZ. I think choosing between a Lott and a Rigby comes down to how much recoil you can handle. I think also that we sometimes put to much thought into miniscule details, paper ballistics, and anything else you can think of. Lets look at the real world, first off brass, much more expensive with the Rigby, but..... you can reload them a bunch of times( in looking at my records I've reloaded as high as 8 times with cast loads in my No.1 Ruger, and still going.) If you call a Lott a "stopper" what in hell do you call a Rigby, an "almost stopper", This cartridge can be loaded UP to the 2600fps range.......WHY? Its been doing its best at 2400 forever, could even be the reason why Remington picked that velocity as a target. Besides if your in Africa or to a lesser extent Alaska, theres a guy there who is hired to do the stopping provided you dont. He'd be the one shooting the biggest bore. I've seen the split stock syndrome posted here and it amazes me the way the unknowing have taken it and ran. Yes I don't doubt it happens, but not on ALL BIG BORE CZ's! I'm still waiting patiently for mine to go, and its not even glass bedded, OH OH! If cost is a issue the CZ, split stock syndrome and all, is the way to go. If your going to, as you say, use it as a D.G. rifle then a 2.5X is all you need. Don't go with the factory rings, buy after market, unless the stock ones suit your taste. Caliber? .416 of course, its all you will ever need and then some. Learn how to reload and as you progress learn how to anneal your cases and the cost issue of brass is a moot point at best. ENJOY
             CRASH87

[nasem]

Ok, I think I made up my mind.  A well placed bullet from a 416 would do just as well as a well placed bullet from a 458 or even a 375.  So, Since I already have a 375 h&h, time to step it up to the 416 world......I think this will be my largest caliber that I will ever buy.

I haven't found any light loads for the 416 to start off with.  I was looking to buy some cheap 300-350 grain bullets, (hollow points / softs) and just Practice with them for a while.  If I can find a load in the 1800-1900 FPS mark, I'd be a very happy camper

Question, what is "Glass bedding" ?

[crash87]

Glass bedding is a term used when bedding an action into a stock. You would use an epoxy compound reinfoced with fiberglass fibers. Brownells sells its acraglass and acraglass gel. There is also bedding compounds out there with steel powder to tie it all together. While technically you could use just an epoxy without a fiber or steel reinforcing agent, its just a term used. CRASH87

[jrhen]

I own a CZ in 375 H&H and have shot it and shot it and shot it and there has been no trouble from the stock.  

Don't worry about the cold weather and a CZ functioning.  I used mine on an Elk hunt this Dec and the high temp was 25 degree's F.  I gave the action and trigger a good cleaning with 90% alcohol to degrease and clean then I warmed the metal with a hair dryer to dry.  Then I used a small craft paintbrush to apply Wilson combat oil to the trigger assembly, action and a drop in for the firing pin.  I used compressed air for computers to blow the oil into the tight places.

Rifle functioned fine when the moment came... Elk it's what for dinner.

[nasem]

Can anyone post some light loads for the 416 rigby ?

[crash87]

You cant go wrong shooting cast in your rifle for practice. Since Hornady stopped making there Interlock R.N. all you really have out there are the pricey "premium" bullets. It starts to hurt, the wallet not the shoulder, constantly putting those high $$$ bullets into a back stop. RCBS makes a 350 gr flat nose gas checked bullet mold that is an excellent practice, not to mention, an equally excellent Whitetail deer bullet. If you don't cast there available from commercial outfits. Then get yourself the Accurate Arms Reloading manual, some of there XMP 5744 powder and enjoy.
CRASH87

[jro45]

I own the Remington 416 and I don't shoot anything under 400gr with it and I have it zeroed at 150 yd and it made a 1" hole from three rounds going threw the 150yd target. It can do anything the other 416 can do. But it is mostly made to hunt dangerous game in Africa or the big bears up in Alaska.

[dubber123]

I bought my CZ in 416 Rigby, just because it's an old caliber, different, and BIG.  Mine shoots into one hole at 50 yds., under 1" at 100.  I am shooting 400 gr. Hornadys, mostly because they were the cheapest at the time.  With the accuracy, it's hard to rationalize the change to a more expensive bullet.  On to power: I don't recommend overloads, but all the data I have seen for the Rigby is very low on the pressure scale.  The CZ will handle the higher pressures the other rounds operate at easily in the Rigby cartridge.  My loads beat the Hodgden by believe it or not, 195 fps.  I was so worried I called Hodgden, and they said it was perfectly possible due to the differences in tolerances and the long barrel on my gun.  My case head expansion never exceeded .001", actually a lot less than that, so they are surely on the safe side.  That said, as previously posted, a 400 at 2400 is what got the Rigby it's reputation, so is anymore really necessary?  I don't know, but in this rifle/caliber, you do have the option of loading up.  My stock is untouched, and unbroken.(so far!)

[Demonical]

.416 Rigby brass is very expensive. It also takes a lot of powder; 95+grs for most loads, whereas the Remington operates at around 80-86gr range with most suitable powders.

The advantage of the Rigby used to be lower operating pressure and particularly less sensitivity to heat in the African veldt. Well most posts I read about reloading the Rigby guys claim to be loading the thing up and negating that advantage.

Also powders like RL-15, which is ideal in the .416RM is not affected by temperature.

IMHO from a purely practical standpoint the Remington is the better choice, but purists may want the Rigby.

As for the Lott well it is pretty good. Reality is that the .458WM is probably all you need. In practical tests in Rifle Magazine, Phil Shoemaker concluded that the small edge the Lott has is unimportant.
The Lott does have the capability to digest .458WM.

FYI I have both a .416RM and a .458 Lott. I think I will take the .416 moose hunting this fall. I intend to use the Lott on an African safari someday.

[China Fleet Sailor]

The .416s are definitely more versatile then the Lott.  That's why I went with the CZ in .416 Rigby.

I chose it because the lower pressure ensures more reliability in hot African hunting conditions.  A very experienced professional hunter in Zimbabwe writes under the pen name Ganyana.  He helps administer the workshop/test for new PHs every year.  He reports that two cartridges definitely have a short shelf life and have problems with pressure spikes.  Those are the .458 Win Mag and .416 Rem.  If you experience on of those you are not going to be able to get the bolt open.  I've corresponded with him on what works and what doesn't.  He's still not a .458 WinMag fan, though he does admit that (other than Hornady Heavy Magnum) factory ammo and careful reloads work as advertised now.  He likes the Rigby.

Phil Shoemaker is a top Alaskan guide, but what works all the time in the North may not when your cartridges are too hot to touch.  I don't want to spend any amount of time trying to kick my bolt open with the heel of my boot so I can reload even if I do have a PH there to watch my back.  

And you aren't always going to be able to count on the PH to clean up your mess.  Earlier this week, on 15 June, a Zambian PH named Sean Reeves was mauled by a lion.  The client wounded it and it went into heavy cover.   They were following it up when it charged.  Reeves hit it again but didn't stop the charge.  The client had to shoot it off of the PH, then the trackers waded in with axes.  In Cameroon you can still hunt on your own without a guide.  

The bottom line is that a DG rifle must be reliable above any other considerations.

[Demonical]

Ron Thomson worked for 25+ years as an elephant control officer in Zimbabwe, Botswana and South Africa and used a .458Win exclusively.

Read his book Mahohboh available from Safari Press.

As far as the .416Rem goes some new powders are not temperature sensitive. Of those, RL-15 is ideal in the .416Rem.

[China Fleet Sailor]

Many experienced hunters have used the .458 WinMag for decades with no complaints.  Not only do they like its performance on game, but in the case of PHs in Africa they also like it because many of their clients use it and leave their extra ammo at the end of the hunt.  On the other hand a few have had ammunition failures.  If you're one of those few you're not likely to become a fan no matter how well the round has performed for others.  In Ganyana's case his .458 failed to penetrate an elephant's skull and he had to resort to his 7x57 to kill the bull.  

.416 Rem ammo problems may not be the concern they once were.  I'm told that currently the client hunter doesn't need to be worry about erratic performance if he hunts with factory ammo as long as it's fresh.  PHs seem to still have problems but they tend to hang onto ammo for a long time because ammo's expensive and hard to get in Africa.  Still, a few problems with erratic performance and sticky bolts keep cropping up even with ammo that is supposed to be new ( http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm ).

When I bought my rifle a few years back I was primarily concerned about reliability.  At the time I figured that if ammo manufacturers had trouble coming up with a reliable .416 Rem load I was not confident I could do any better.  I had never heard about reliability problems associated with the Rigby round as long as it wasn't hot rodded.  So I went with the one that had worked in Africa for nearly 100 years and not the one they were still tweaking a decade or so after it was introduced.

[Demonical]

China Fleet Sailor I will not disagree with the .416 Rigby but I think people need to understand that most of the problems attributed to the .458WM and .416Rem are OLD NEWS, due to POWDER PROBLEMS and can be easily avoided today.

In Ron Thomson's case he used the .458WM beginning in the 1970's for some 25 years and never had any problems due to choice of caliber. If you read his book you will learn he did have some problems!!

The thing is if you are using this caliber (.458WM) and have even one problem when hunting elephant or cape buffalo the problem can quickly become fatal. This would reduce the fan club somewhat...

It is why Jack Lott developed the .458 Lott.

This Oct. I intend to use my .416Rem on moose, just for the hunting experience with the caliber. My "old faithful" moose rifle is a .338WM...




Jim.