Alligator Gar and Snapping Turtles on the Pond

[Land_Owner]

Having a master bedroom balcony, which overhangs our pond, is a receipe for mid-morning .22 rimfire practice in the target rich "fish" environment with the Dismal Swamp to the west as a backdrop.  Alligator gar to 3-feet in length laze along about 8 inches below the water surface looking for crappie and bream to harass.  Occasionally the gar surface to sneak a peek above the water line.  

Being ready at or near the instant they break the surface is high anxiety awaiting the Ruger K22/77RP trigger pull and the proverbial "Thwump" of the Aguila ".22-SSS" Sniper Subsonic 40 grain long rifle lead bullet penetrating gar and water simultaneous.  Belly up and on the bottom, the gar attract alligator snapping turtles.  When the turtles peek their beady red and yellow lined eyes and nose just above the water line, "Thwump", another one bites the dust.

Soft shelled turtles are fair game as well as the occasional raccoon and water snake.  One out of 225 rounds, so far, has left the water as a richocette and that from too steep an angle of attack through the head of a soft shell turtle just beyond the self imposed "water penetration limit".

Gotta mind that "point blank" range for assurity that rounds don't stray from their intended purpose.  Can never be too sure there is no one this far out in the swamp.

[lefty o]

your my hero!!! :roll:

[S.S.]

Those Snapping turtles are some goooood eating!
Bad thing is I can't bring myself to shoot them anymore.
Found one in a ditch that leads from my swamp that was about the size of a stop sign! Had something wierd looking on the side of its shell.
That wierd looking thing turned out to be a stone arrowhead!
that it's shell had grown around. We had several folks look at it
and finally someone from a local college told us that there was
documented alligator snappers that were almost 500 years old !
and that  one very well may be that old too! If that was the case, That turtle was hatched about 1480 (it was in the early 80's when I found it).
That was the decade before Columbus sailed from spain and discovered the new world! When that sunk in
It was released into a very remote swamp several hours later
and I have not eaten one since.

[victorcharlie]

I've shot 6 big snappers out of my pond in the last year of so.......the usual range is around 100 yards and the .17HMR is accurate enough to hit a turtles head at that range.

I'm with you land owner, for some reason I really enjoy the Challenge of shooting them through the eyes with the hummer.

[BlkHawk73]

Ah yes, the joys and triumphs of shooting those  creatures just for the sake of being able to say you killed something.  Ahh, what joy that can bring.  :?  :roll:

[victorcharlie]

Ah yes, the joys and triumphs of shooting those  creatures just for the sake of being able to say you killed something.  Ahh, what joy that can bring.  :?  :roll:

That was after I found a sand hill crane with his head missing....and several ducks on the bank with legs missing.......really, I was kind of worried about my beagles legs coming up missing.......

Why do you think we're killing just for the sake of killing?  Tell you what....how about you come over here and catch them and take them with you......and the snakes too......when can I expect you?

[Game_Stalker]

I can understand having respect for anything that has the audacity to live for 500 years, but everything dies sooner or much much later. I can't imagine, however, that a 500 year old snapper would taste very good. With the exception of snappers (which I never got around to eating, but have it on my menu), water snakes, yotes, vermin, and gar, if I ain't gonna eat it, I ain't gonna kill it.

[lefty o]

sure sounds like wanton waste and destruction of game animals to me. or do you have a license or permit from your local game warden. at least a good poacher eats what he kills.

[corbanzo]

I've cut down plenty of 200yo spruce trees, I'd say I'm in the 100's of 1,000's of years when it comes to trees...   :-D  :-D  :-D

[BlkHawk73]

Why do you think we're killing just for the sake of killing?  Tell you what....how about you come over here and catch them and take them with you......and the snakes too......when can I expect you?

  Hmm, didn't believe I was posting in response to your post but rather the inital post in this thread.  Guilty conscience or something fella? :wink:  Now in your case, there were animals feeding on other animals.  Ok, so because of that we should head out just kill pretty much every species out these since they all do this - circle of life thing ya know.   Up here we've got snappers and other critters of the predatory type.  Knowing this, people simply keep their animals and themselves a bit more watchful and within a safe area.  s for coming by to rid you of these bloodthirsty and horriby dangerous creatures of hades, I was down in eastern TN this March - had I know then ... :-)    Be back in a couple years.

[S.S.]

I in no way meant to instigate a dispute,
I was simply stating my own reasons for not shooting
Alligator Snappers. I can certainly understand dispatching things that are being destructive, I have done it myself. But anything that has a life span like that I think has squatters rights to be where ever it is at.
I think they are on the endangered Spicies list now anyway,
so it may be a Federal Offense to harm them now.

[victorcharlie]

The one's in my pond were common snappers.....and turtles migrate....or move from pond to pond.....that's why if they arn't controled they tend to take over........

So, now that I've been called a poacher.......My question is do either of you own your own pond and have dogs, chickens, ducks, cows, horses or other livestock that share the pond?  Ever seen what a snapper can do to an animal?

Want to go swimming naked in the same pond full of snappers?  Or, full of snakes?

There are varmints........don't be so quick to judge a fellow who sees a coyote killing chickens and shoots the coyote a poacher......same for turtles.........among other things.......such as groundhogs ruining a pasture....and creating a hazard for livestock.....or rats in the feed room.....etc...etc..

It's my pond.....and although the supreme court has ruled that I only think it's mine, the basis of capitalism is the right to private ownership of property.......

With the ownership of that private property IMO is the right to decide what's a varmint and a what isn't.......

So, if some of the bleeding hearts want to come relocate these varmints fine........but I haven't had any ask......and don't expect too......Haven't had any bleeding hearts pay any of my livestock vet or feed bills, or bring me eggs to replace the ones I loose......or a bucket of chicken to replace the chickens I loose.....

Come to think of it.....I've never had anyone pay my mortage, or my property taxes or insurance either.......but they sure want to tell me what I can and can't do on my property.......

I've got some fencing to take care of......think one of the same bleeding hearts is going to stand out in the heat and help me fix it?  Barn roofs leaking too......any takers?  Think someone's going to pull up with a truck load of new tin?

So....you mind your backyard.....I'll mind mine.....

It's thinking that animals have rights over humans that seems to be creating a problem.......this is the kind of thinking that's going to make hunting a rich mans sport.....

Things arn't always as they appear......Judge not least you not be judged.....

[Keith L]

This might be a regional difference.  In Wisconsin you can't take snapping turtles with firearms, and there is a possession limit of 3.  This is on your land or on public land.  If caught you could loose hunting/fishing priveledges and have to pay a fine.  It would be considered poaching.  This may not be the case where you live.

[victorcharlie]

Sounds like you need to vote those liberal land grabbing college boys out of office and put someone in who values liberty and freedom over animal rights......

[Keith L]

Sounds like you need to vote those liberal land grabbing college boys out of office and put someone in who values liberty and freedom over animal rights......

Wouldn't get much traction here.  Anyway there we don't have that much trouble with snappers here, and we do like them in soup so that keeps the population under control.  We just make sure we take them legal like.

[victorcharlie]

Ok.....then read this and ask yourself who the poacher is.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060523/ap_on_sc/elk_thinning

If you don't see the agenda, and the laws passed as a result then I'm a moron........

I didn't realize you had snappers that far north.......don't know why, but just thought they needed more and longer warm weather.

As for endangered........float the duck river in Middle TN.......if there arn't at least 5 on every log then I can't count either...... Or, ease around the bank on any Tennessee river lake......

Yep....there's only one of me....I'm the one endangered........Or rather.....freedom and liberty are what's really endangered.......

Next thing you know you'll start buying into the global warming thing too!

[Keith L]

Thats an interesting story about one of my favorite places.  Those park elk are so tame it would be a shame to have a hunting season.  Last summer I walked around a corner and was 10 feet from a 5X5 in velvet.  It looked at me then went back to eating.  And the locals tell of opening the curtains in the morning to see a bull eyeing himself in the reflection from the windows, then when he takes himself on he winds up in the living room.  Not so good.

We have snappers up here that get about as big as a trash can lid.  And about 10-12 other types of turtles.  I see the little ones on logs sunning, but have never seen a snapper sunning.  When i see them out of the water they are on a mission.

[lefty o]

VC, you are without a doubt a poacher. if you have problems with wild animals killing your pets or livestock all it takes is a phone call to your local game warden to get a permit that allows you to legally terminate the problem animals.

[S.S.]

I have never seen an alligator snapper Sunning itself on logs.
They are normally too large. A common snapper yes, I see them all the time. Sliders and painter turtles too.  An Alligator snapper has three ridges in it's shell running front to back. and also has 2 ridges of "spikes" running down it's tail. And to answer some of the questions above,
Yes I am a land-owner with a spring fed swamp and 2 creeks on my property, Snappers, cottonmouths, no Gar, But we have grendles which are even nastier.
This area is left pristine, Just as it was when my family bought it.
I think that having an untouched piece of property that has been this way
for hundreds of years is an incredible thing! The residents of that swamp are what makes it fastinating and rare! It, in my opinion, is only good stewardship of my property to not Kill the unusual residents there.
It is not just everyone who can say Yes, I own Alligator snappers,
Grendles, Slider and painted turtles, beavers, muskrats, Grass Pickeral,
Yellow perch, Blue catfish, freshwater shrimp, One thing I honestly have not identified what it is yet and five of the rarest plants in the United States ! But I can say that because they all live in my swamp! It is going to stay that way too. But, You do as you wish with yours.

[victorcharlie]

VC, you are without a doubt a poacher. if you have problems with wild animals killing your pets or livestock all it takes is a phone call to your local game warden to get a permit that allows you to legally terminate the problem animals.

So was Robin Hood........

Your handle says it all.........

Now...go watch the animal planet some more.......

I'm done with this thread.....so go insult someone else.........

.....I know what you are, but I won't resort to name calling....no sir....I just won't do it........

[lefty o]

i did not call you a name, i put into 1 word what you have openly admitted you are. oh by the way if your shooting turtles off of logs, they are not snapping turtles.

[Graybeard]

Some of you seem to wish to apply YOUR PERSONAL values and ethics to the world, kinda like the anti's do. Get over it. Not everyone feels that everything you shoot has to be eaten.

Do you eat the flies, mosquitoes, rats and other vermin you kill? If not why not?

Just because you're personal ethics and values say eat what you shoot gives you NO RIGHT to try to inflict your values on the rest. So get over it if what some do fails to mean your super high standards.

[lefty o]

yeah, your right. im sorry that i have issues with people breaking the law and openly admitting on a forum. like i mentioned, i dont have a problem with people eliminating pests- but there are proper, ethical, and legal ways about going about it. if a bald eagle takes his cat, i assume its okay for him to shoot the eagle too.

[S.S.]

G.B. Didn't mean for this to get Ugly.
I don't try to be one of those "Holy-er than Thou"
kind of folks, And I sure would not be one to cast
the first stone at someone doing something That I think
is not right. Because God knows I have done thing that
others don't like as well. My first post on this was not trying to tell someone that they were WRONG for shooting Those turtles,
I was simply stating why I didn't do it. My opinion is that there are
things that are simply too cool to kill, Alligator snappers being one of those things. I do not hunt Doves for the same reason. To me they are more enjoyable alive than on my table. I do have one concern over posts like these though, That being fuel for the anti gun fire. I personally have
shot Crows with the same pleasure that it seems to give these fella's
shooting gar and Snappers, But I try not to make it sound like sadistic slaughter when I talk about it. As one of the other post said 'Killing for the sake of Killing". I will be Honest, Reading some of this stuff, It would be easy to picture some guy named TEENER in a mustard stained, moth-eaten T-Shirt with a beer in one hand and a 22 rifle in the other shooting from the window of his rusty truck... This is the image a lot of folks have of shooters and hunters anyway and we really do not need to make it any worse. But, fussing amongst ourselves is not very profitable either.
And yes, I have a .22 and a rusty truck but my wife throws away
my old shirts :wink:

[Keith L]

And yes, I have a .22 and a rusty truck but my wife throws away
my old shirts

.22s and rusty trucks are some of the best things in life...

[S.S.]

SO TRUE..... :grin:

[DirtyDan]

I am with VC on this one. Way too much PC crap in the world. When Lefty starts sending along a check for my taxes, I might consider letting him vote on what to do with my property, but I would, of course, retain 51%. I think it is more of a regional cultural thing than an ethical one. D@#* yankees just weren't brought up right.

[Keith L]

So am I to understand that down south game and conservation laws don't apply to a land owner on their own property?  Or are you saying that it is understood that you can just ignore them if you want?  Up here if there are wild critters that are doing damage you can deal with them but you have to get the proper permits first.

[victorcharlie]

Ok....guess I'm a sap for getting sucked back in .....fell for the bait I guess....

LeftyO, this isn't about turtles......not really.....the question is about which way we're going to let our government go....

You say that if a fellow has a problem with a squirrel eating his tomatoes he should go to the state, fill out a form, pay a fee and then be able to take care of his problem?  Or is it the fact that a fellow takes sport of it that bothers you?  I hope that I've got your possition correct.....

What does this really do?......It creates more growth in the government.....so if I pay then it's ok?  Isn't this another form of taxation?  Is there any power the local, state, or federal government is not willing to assume, and why are you so willing to give those rights away to people who have a different opinion on how to live there life?

If a man breaks into your house and steals your TV do you have the right to protect your property?  Isn't it about the same with a wolf eating a cow?  Isn't that wolf causing you a loss?

You see, there is a cultural difference.....in some states a man has a right to use deadly force to protect his property.....in others they don't.

There are various farm laws that  come into play as well that gives the land owner specific rights as to protecting his livestock.

From reading your post, I assume your a lawyer, licensed to practice in every state in the union and an expert in not only game laws but criminal law and the specific laws regarding farming?  Your a really smart fellow to be able to keep track of all the different laws from state to state.......

How do you know I don't have the right to shoot a turtle on my private property?  How do you know this is against the law in my state?  Doesn't a fellow have to be arrested and convicted to be labeled a poacher? Isn't this best left to a court of law, and do you understand why I find being called this offensive and insulting?   Do you understand the difference between being arrested and convicted?

You never drive over the speed limit?  Are you a perfect man living in an imperfect world?

You see, in todays society it is impossible not to break the law....That's by design......so that if one of us becomes to big a pain in the rear there is always a reason slap us back down......Look at Randy Weaver......or David Koresh.......then look at Janet Reno........

There are those of us who want less government in our day to day lives.....not more......those of us who respect the rights of man above any animal...........who believe to be endowed by the creator with these rights......there are those of us who believe in the constitution, not the adulterated document it has evolved into but who credit the spirit and the intent that our ancestors had of the constitution when they drafted it........There are those of us who believe the govermnent should fear the people, and not be a government that the people fear.......There are those of us who choose freedom over tyranny.......

I don't like labels, but to me, from what little I can tell, your about socialism and facsism.......not liberty and freedom.....

Ever heard the term Sheeple?

So, to you I'm a poacher.......to me I'm just another guy who just wants the government to stay out of his business and leave me the hell alone.  

To you a poacher.......maybe to others a patriot.......I guess it depends on which side of the fence your on........

Your on the different end of the spectrum from me.......that much is apparent.......

[S.S.]

This Has Gone in a strange Direction,
This has nothing to do with location.
I am not sure if this actually falls under poaching in most states
but it may in some. I really am lost as to how politics have gotten involved. I live in the South,  matter of fact you don't have to go too far to reach Florida and start heading North again (or it seems that way to me). I obey the hunting regulations, I do not take animal out of season
and I will CERTAINLY report those who do... Period! no questions asked,
no remorse felt.. There are reasons for the hunting seasons and regulations that goes far beyond big brother controlling our lives.  
That Said, I'm outta this one, It has now stretched beyond what
I am going to get involved in.
  Ya'll Have a Nice Day.