Author Topic: The Truth About 45/70 (Read 9028 times)

totallycustom · « **on:** May 17, 2006, 11:43:48 AM »

Well I am interested in the true potential and facts about full power loads for the 45/70. Such as garrett, cor-bon, hornady leverevolution.

What is its true range?
How effective is it?
How versatile is the round from high to low power?

There seems to be a lot of debate over the actual range for this cartridge some say just short range but many old timers I talk with say it can be an effective 300 yard or more gun.

What do you all think?
What has been your experience?
What kinds of hunting is it effective for? Game animals?

Hope we can get some good discussion about this one.

Thanks -TC-

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2006, 11:50:15 AM »

I've shot one for 35 years, usually a single-shot.

1. I can hit all day at 200-250 yards and my eyes are crap.

2. 20 years ago, I pole-axed a Yukon moose with one shot at 110 yds.

3. You can load it from plinking (using pistol bullets) to dangerous game (using premium or hard cast bullets).

3. I will not be without it.

nasem · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2006, 11:53:22 AM »

check these balistic tables out..... seems like the 45-70 isn't much of a long range gun based on them numbers
http://www.cpcartridge.com/45-70ruger-B.htm

and this was using ruger #1

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2006, 12:16:47 PM »

You know, rifles come with sights.........I don't care about the drop figures.
If you ever hear and see the effect of a 405 impacting at 1200-1400, you'll be impressed.

I'm still not selling it.

totallycustom · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2006, 08:13:35 AM »

Seems to me that people who use them quite a bit and hunt with them say good things and that they will shoot well at distance. Then their are the number crunchers who say short range only. The prior posts seem to support this.

Who are we to believe?

-TC-

victorcharlie · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2006, 08:45:08 AM »

The 45.70 shoots in an arc......the range is there.....if the shooter practices enough.....are there flatter shooting rounds that require less skill and practice? Oh yes.....but if you want to make big holes......then the 45.70 is the ticket.

I enjoy mine, but 150 yards is about the limit of my skill....not the gun or the cartridges fault.......I have other rifles to fill the long range ticket that don't require the same amount of skill and practice......but I do love those big holes........

nasem · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2006, 09:07:48 AM »

Victor is right. 45-70 can make a kill even at 300 yards. Its got the power. Only problem is that you need to be THAT DAMN GOOD with it to make such hit especially if you standard practice ranges are always 100-150 yards.

Making a 300 yard kill with a 30-06 is not that easy, yet alone a 45-70. It mostly depends on how much your going to practice. I do not own a 45-70, I have shot it @ 100 yards tho, pretty accurate round I say. I was getting 2-3Â” groups and that was my first time firing it with my friendÂ’s marlin. He can get much better groups, 1-2Â” is normal for him. His loads werenÂ’t even all that bad, its recoil isnÂ’t a Â“kick in the shoulderÂ” but rather a nice big shove

Lone Star · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2006, 12:23:51 PM »

My furthest shot with a .45-70 (M98) was between 225 and 250 yards with the Hornady 300HP in 1977. Impact velocity was ca. 1200 fps, the bullet entered center of the chest (Kodiak Island blacktail facing directly at me) and was recovered in a ham well-expanded. I had a good rest and knew the drop out to 250 yards. IIRC the drop here was about 8 inches or so, not tough to hold over. I used the duplex reticle in the scope to estimate the range. 300 yards adds a lot more drop and would be tougher, but with modern laser rangefinders it could certainly be done.

darrell8937 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2006, 04:09:52 PM »

This comes up all the time. small bore flat shooters vrs the big bore arch. If you have no paitiance and just want to peer thru a scope and not worry about bullet drop at reasonable ranges, than you need to go with a 30 cal or so.30/06/ 270/ 300 WM etc. But if you wish to really learn the physcis and fun of the big boys, than you need a 45/70 etc. a whole diffrent world. I was in the artillery in the US Army. The true big bore rifles.. these things lob heavy shells over the next hill. No body questions their effectness. A good rifleman with a 45/70 will amaze you. Simple physciss,, A 150 gr bullet will require far less eneryg to drive to 2000 fps than a 406 gr. you can throw a golf ball much further than a bowling ball . but , that bowling ball will sure hurt side your head.

totallycustom · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2006, 06:33:49 AM »

Practice is my middle name. I have an 1895 cowboy coming soon that is going to become my new biggame rifle for the mountains here in Washington State. I think from what I know/hear that it will serve my hunting style well, where i hunt we dont really have shots over 150 yrd anyway so that wont be a problem, but the power that it has will be welcomed for shots on elk, big mule deer, black bears, cougars, and maybe a moose,sheep, or goat.

I have been wondering how many use a 45/70 as their primary hunting rifle?

Thanks, -TC-

victorcharlie · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2006, 07:03:38 AM »

I started the deer season using the Marlin 1895 45.70 scoped with a 1.75 X 6 X 32 Leupold. I changed to my non scoped .35 remington as the deer had moved to an area that 20 to 40 yards was about all I could see and didn't need nor want a scope in that thick stuff.

I haven't done it yet, but the plan is to remove the scope and go back to the williams peep sight and hunt the 45.70 this deer season.

I like the idea of hitting them hard and making big holes as tracking would be tough in this thick stuff......

bud340 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2006, 06:38:49 PM »

This year I hunted with a 45/70 1895cb with a williams peep site. I was able to shoot a 4x4 whitetail at 283 yds. It took 2 shots, the first shot hit dirt and the second killed the deer. 283 yds wasn't difficult, if I had a range finder it wouldn't be hard at all. Oh yes, I use Barnes originals 400 gr. bullets and RL7 powder giving about 2000 fps.

Judson · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2006, 01:12:04 PM »

The 45/70 is a great old cartridge and for all but the biggest or very dangerous North American game it in modern loading great. How ever a Dangerous Game cartridge it is not!!! It could be used but marginally at best and you might get stomped or eaten! Cape Buff for example can and often do take several well placed hits from such cartridges as the .458 Winchester and .416 Rigby both of which far out strip the 45/70.
Even non dangerous planes game of the tough kind, such as Zebras, Wildebeast, Gemsboks, will stand up to a few thumps from such cartridges as the .375 H&H and still go several hundred yards and they will not eat or stomp you.
I am not knocking the old 45/70 but it was never designed for some of the things we ask of it and the bullets designed for the 45/70 will not perform will on the really big stuff and the bullets designed for the big .458s will not expand well even at modern max. loadings and velositys that the 45/70 can deliver at any sane pressure. Do not over look or put down the old war horse that is the 45/70 but do not ask more then it can give you, it is a fine cartridge, just not a Dangerous game caliber.

CyberSniper · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2006, 05:21:11 PM »

And yet, there can be no doubt that the .45-70, along with many
other calibers ( larger and smaller ) wiped out the buffalo herds
when loaded with blackpowder. ( Thus even less speed than nowadays. )
It is also a known fact that very long shots were made in those days,
such as the one Billy Dixon made in north Texas.
Lucky or not, it was done.
http://www.oldwestlibrary.com/OWL/adobewalls.htm

daddywpb · « **Reply #14 on:** May 20, 2006, 10:28:09 PM »

Quote from: victorcharlie

I started the deer season using the Marlin 1895 45.70 scoped with a 1.75 X 6 X 32 Leupold. I changed to my non scoped .35 remington as the deer had moved to an area that 20 to 40 yards was about all I could see and didn't need nor want a scope in that thick stuff.

I haven't done it yet, but the plan is to remove the scope and go back to the williams peep sight and hunt the 45.70 this deer season.

I like the idea of hitting them hard and making big holes as tracking would be tough in this thick stuff......

This is where the big 45/70 shines. My Dad always hunted with one and so did my brother. The 45/70 Marlins have always been referred to as "brush guns", even in Marlin's old catalogs, able to swing fast and hit hard in thick cover. I'm hoping to carry on the tradition starting this coming season with my new Marlin Guide Gun. Haven't hunted with it yet, but it's a shooter. Shots at deer and hogs around here are usually short and quick. I can't bring myself to scope a lever gun, so I was going to put a set of ghost ring sights on it, but after a couple shooting sessions, the factory iron seems to be fine. We'll see. You gotta love getting a new rifle ready to hunt.

AkRvrrat · « **Reply #15 on:** May 26, 2006, 12:17:54 PM »

For intended purposes in the state of Washington it will serve you well. If you continue to listen to these ideas pro or con they will definately sway you into something else. The 45-70 irregardless of public opinion is and has been an effective cartridge and is still with us today.
I have take quite a few Interior Grizzlies aka. Ursus Arctos Horribilis with this round shooting 425 grn. hardcast and h322. These bears get pretty damn good size and are very tough apart from public opinion. These animals are about as dangerous as they come.
The range of effectiveness is based on what you are shooting at and with what bullet. I continually stay within 150 yds albeit moose or bears.
I either use the foward mounted scope system or the WWG peep sighting system offered up by WildWestGuns-works very well. Personal opinion of course.
I have loaded up in the past and have shot 405gr. Kodiaks and they work well indeed. I stick to hardcast for penetration of bone and muscle. I have used other "inferior" bullets from other makes and found them to kill just the same but with out good penetration or good bullet weight retention after impact. The argument can be created on anyones use of there past history in regards to bullet selection and animals shot at, but for all practical use the BTB 425 grn. is hard to beat here in Alaska.
You will surely have high regards for such a rifle after you have used and carried it for awhile-it won't let you down.

regards,

glshop20 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 10, 2006, 02:43:33 PM »

Ihave a Marlin lever and a Ruger No.1 in 45/70. Both shoot very well. I have used both for deer and even with pleasant to shoot lower velocity/lighter bullet loads it does quite a fine job of drpping them. The Marlin doubles as a Cowboy lever sillohuette gun for metallic sillohuette contest out to 200yds. My understanding is that the Ruger No.1 is among the strongest actions. I have loaded some pretty hot 405gr. bullets and they shoot accurately. It is definitely not an all day activity if you are shooting off a bag. I have seen data in manuals that show the 45/70 with 500gr bullets and it does not match a .458 but it is not that far behind. I imagine a 500gr. hot load out of a relatively light weight Ruger N0. 1 may set your eyes further back in your skull. Anyone have any experience.

dodd3 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2006, 01:17:50 AM »

i shoot a h@r buf classic .45/70 with a Smith buckhorn lader sight with peep hole slider and a lyman front globe.i shoot the lee 500r cast bullet bc of .443 to wich i fit a gascheck to. with my load of adi 2207 i get 1690 fps ,it pole axes camel's at 200 meters and does the same to aisan water buffalo.i use a 20 to 1 lead tin mix never had a bullet exit they all expand to duble there size and totaly wrecks the vitles. i did a penertration test with this bullet shooting a young gum tree it split the trunk nearley in two.recoverd bullet it had onley lost 5 grn's weight.heres a pic of the bullet.the one on the right has the gascheck.
bernie

kombi1976 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 18, 2006, 06:24:52 PM »

A friend here in Australia is a professional roo shooter who also culls feral goats, donkeys, camel, wild dogs and, for a significant period, culled Asiatic water buffalo in the Northern Territory.
He has used 303 FMJ loads, a 375 H&H and a 416 Rigby for buffs but his gun of choice is the 45-70.
The combination of a big hole, a fast cycling action(1895 Marlin) and a heavy hit made it his preference.
Further, he never worried about shoulder shots to preserve the skin for a mount.
All of his safest shots were neck shots and the old 45-70 completely blitzed them.
He also enjoys messing around with cast loads.
Suffice to say, 45-70, with correct bullet placement and correct bullet choice, is up to almost all game.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2006, 06:29:35 PM »

Quote from: dodd3

i shoot a h@r buf classic .45/70 with a williams buckhorn lader sight with peep hole slider and a lyman front globe.i shoot the lee 500r cast bullet bc of .443 to wich i fit a gascheck to. with my load of adi 2207 i get 1690 fps ,it pole axes camel's at 200 meters and does the same to aisan water buffalo.i use a 20 to 1 lead tin mix never had a bullet exit they all expand to duble there size and totaly wrecks the vitles. i did a penertration test with this bullet shooting a young gum tree it split the trunk nearley in two.recoverd bullet it had onley lost 5 grn's weight

Bernie, do you temper or harden your cast bullets in any way or do you fin it unnecessary?

dscp · « **Reply #20 on:** July 27, 2006, 05:27:54 PM »

HOWDY ! I CANNOT SPEEK FROM TOO MANY YEARS EXPERIENCE ,EVEN THOUGH I HAVE 1 BOLT, 1 LEVER AND 2 SINGLES . I READ YOUR REPLY'S WITH DELIGHT. WHERE THE FELLOW GIVES YOU A WEB PAGE TO GANDER AT THE BALISTICS......
CONCIDER THIS...AT 500 YARDS THE SPEED AND ENERGY NEXT TO A 45(ANY) OR A 44 MAG...AT THE MUZZLE. NOT AT FIVE FOOTBALL FIELDS DISTANCE.
IN THE DAYS WHERE HORSEPOWER MENT THE NUMBER OF HORSES IN A CORAL, LOOK AT THE HIGH POWER STUFF 50/100 AND MORE , BUT THEY DIDNOT HAVE THE POWDERS, ETC YOU HAVE. YOU CAN AND WILL OUT DO ANYTHING THEY HAD...IMPRESSIVE ENOUGH FOR ME.
dscp
keep your powder dry!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2006, 12:06:56 AM »

Quote from: totallycustom on May 17, 2006, 11:43:48 AM

Well I am interested in the true potential and facts about full power loads for the 45/70. Such as garrett, cor-bon, hornady leverevolution.

What is its true range?
How effective is it?
How versatile is the round from high to low power?

There seems to be a lot of debate over the actual range for this cartridge some say just short range but many old timers I talk with say it can be an effective 300 yard or more gun.

What do you all think?
What has been your experience?
What kinds of hunting is it effective for? Game animals?

Hope we can get some good discussion about this one.

Thanks -TC-

Just remember in the old buffalo hunter days with black powder cartridges they were making 300 to 500 yards shots. There is a real arc to long distance shooting with them heavy 458 bullets.

With today's powders and the ability to load them well over trapdoor velocities 300 yards is very doable. I have done a lot of 200 yards shooting with various guns chambered in 45-70, from Ruger #1 and Marlins to my black powder cartridge Shiloh Sharps.

Any game in the North America will fall to a 45-70 with the proper bullet and shot placement.

Questor · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2006, 01:55:25 AM »

My own approach to rifle selection is that I pick a gun that's either a 100 yard gun, a 200 yard gun, or a 300 yard gun. The decision is based on how far it can shoot with point blank trajectory. If I want a tool that fits those parameters, then I just pick from the many rifles that deliver the flat trajectory I want.

The 45-70 is a bit special, as are handgun cartridges. At least in my mind they are. There is a higher level of skill required to use them at longer ranges and plenty of practice is required. I have found it very satisfying to know the trajectory of my gun well enough to be able to take shots at game confidently at distances well beyond the point blank trajectory of the cartridge.

I guess the answer to the original question is that the 45-70 with heavy bullets will deliver enough momentum to penetrate game to very long distances, but it does so with perhaps a 150 yard point blank trajectory, with wind deflection also being a very significant factor. It's really up to the shooter to be expert enough to work with the 45-70 as a tool. It's one of the reasons I have always had a fondness for the cartridge.

handirifle · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2006, 07:17:23 PM »

Anything you'd shoot to kill at 50yds with a 240gr 44 mag load, the 45-70 will do at 500yds. Seriously. Compare the ballistics on remintons web site.

S.S. · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2006, 12:00:49 PM »

I sold one of mine to my brother last year, (A Marlin 1895)
and loaded him up some 300 grainers to max pressure.
He set his scope in at 100 yards and grouped well
we moved back to 200 yards and he actually grouped 2 inches high.
3 different groups same place. We then fired some 405 grain
hard casts, still Max Pressure loads, and he hit 4-6 inches low
at 200 yards. That is not really a rainbow trajectory to me.
My own .45-70, I can not really count because I load it with Blackpowder
and it is substantially different. One thing I can tell you for sure from my hunting
experience with it...Most things shot with a .45-70 simply fall down,
No tracking necessary here! I have some 520 grain medium hard casts loaded with blackpowder
that are truely not for the weak or young. They kick as hard as I care to be smacked when firing a
rifle. I will introduce them to some South Georgia Hogs this fall.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #25 on:** August 03, 2006, 12:18:37 PM »

S. Summer that's good information.......honestly, I haven't shot my 45.70 at 200 yards.........I shoot 200 yards with most every thing else....(haven't tried the .35 remington at 200).........

I'm shooting factory 300 grain remington corelocts.......no where near max loads........I'll give it a try as soon as the hot weather breaks.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 03, 2006, 01:53:26 PM »

Quote from: S.Sumner on August 03, 2006, 12:00:49 PM

I sold one of mine to my brother last year, (A Marlin 1895)
and loaded him up some 300 grainers to max pressure.
He set his scope in at 100 yards and grouped well
we moved back to 200 yards and he actually grouped 2 inches high.
3 different groups same place. We then fired some 405 grain
hard casts, still Max Pressure loads, and he hit 4-6 inches low
at 200 yards. That is not really a rainbow trajectory to me.
My own .45-70, I can not really count because I load it with Blackpowder
and it is substantially different. One thing I can tell you for sure from my hunting
experience with it...Most things shot with a .45-70 simply fall down,
No tracking necessary here! I have some 520 grain medium hard casts loaded with blackpowder
that are truely not for the weak or young. They kick as hard as I care to be smacked when firing a
rifle. I will introduce them to some South Georgia Hogs this fall.

S.Sumner, I have to agree with you about the lack of rainbow trajectory on max loaded 45-70's with smokeless. They are fairly flat shooting. I also shoot my Shiloh Sharps with black powder, now there is a rainbow trajectory. It is fun shooting at 200 yards, because you shoot and then listen for the clink of the steel target. Big difference between smokeless and black powder cartridges.

S.S. · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2006, 07:05:59 AM »

I love that old black powder stuff !
I once came across a large batch of
.22 long rifle cases that had been primed but not loaded
(Don't ask, can't tell) Anyway, I filled them with blackpwder
and thumb-pressed a lead roundball into the case.
I terrorized the local squirrel and rabbit population with those
until my supply ran out! it was a blast, and it was surprising
how effective they were. I really wish I had more.

rebAL · « **Reply #28 on:** September 25, 2006, 07:40:42 AM »

I only recently have shot a 45/70 and to date have not hunted with it. I have, however read all I could get my hands on from noted "Experts". From what I've learned, the 45/70 traditional bullets kill by penetration and they typically don't expand. (The new Hornady's are likely an exception) . Since they kill by penetration by staying togeather, most people who use them on dangerous game or very large game will aim for the skeletal structure to put the animal down (Shoulder/high shoulder/spnal column." The relatively slow speed of the bullet is also designed to plow through bone & tissue. This is a different concept than a fast expanding smaller bore bullet that kills by destroying tissue as it expands & loses momentum.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** September 25, 2006, 08:12:14 AM »

Quote from: rebAL on September 25, 2006, 07:40:42 AM

I only recently have shot a 45/70 and to date have not hunted with it. I have, however read all I could get my hands on from noted "Experts". From what I've learned, the 45/70 traditional bullets kill by penetration and they typically don't expand. (The new Hornady's are likely an exception) . Since they kill by penetration by staying togeather, most people who use them on dangerous game or very large game will aim for the skeletal structure to put the animal down (Shoulder/high shoulder/spnal column." The relatively slow speed of the bullet is also designed to plow through bone & tissue. This is a different concept than a fast expanding smaller bore bullet that kills by destroying tissue as it expands & loses momentum.

While not a true traditional bullet...ie 405 grain and up...The 300 grain Nosler will certainly change your mind when it comes to the ole 45-70 expanding and still penatrating...I dropped a nice 10 pointer 2 years ago with my 1895GS..he was dead on his feet and only went a few yards...it gave complete penatration..and a massive wound channel thru him...Started at 2300 fps...they make the 45-70 a good 200 yard plus capable gun...and with the Noslers opening up all the way down to 700fps...well...this is my choice right now for the jacketed 300 grain bullets...

Mac