The Truth About 45/70

[rebAL]

While not a true traditional bullet...ie 405 grain and up...The 300 grain Nosler will certainly change your mind when it comes to the ole 45-70 expanding and still penatrating...I dropped a nice 10 pointer 2 years ago with my 1895GS..he was dead on his feet and only went a few yards...it gave complete penatration..and a massive wound channel thru him...Started at 2300 fps...they make the 45-70 a good 200 yard plus capable gun...and with the Noslers opening up all the way down to 700fps...well...this is my choice right now for the jacketed 300 grain bullets...

Mac

  That's good information Mac;  I hope the new 325 gr.  Hornady Leverevolution will  perform in the same manner as I will be using it on black bear & whitetail. 

[Coyote Hunter]

My Marlin .45-70 load is a 350g North Fork at 2183fps.  The rifle sports a Leupold VX-II 2-7x33 and is zeroed for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6” diameter target, meaning the bullet is never more than 3” above or below line of sight out to MPBR – which is 206 yards.  At 250 yards the bullet is down about 9-1/2 inches and still carries about 1750fpe.  At 300 the bullet is down 21-22” and carries about 1500fpe.

I was able to take a forkhorn buck and a 6x6 bull elk a couple years ago with this rifle.  The buck lasered at 197 yards and the bull at 213.  The shots were extremely effective and made me a believer in the Big Fat Bullet concept.  The buck did a tight 360 circle then tried to run uphill.  Didn’t make it more than a 5-10 yards before collapsing.  It looked like someone had taken a bucket of blood and sloshed it out onto the new snow.  The bull never took a step – it just stood there as if I had missed.  As I was getting ready to take a second shot it tipped over.

Would I trust this rifle to a 300 yard shot?  If all conditions were right (as they have to be before I would use ANY rifle), absolutely.

[Coyote Hunter]

totallycustom –

One thing I didn’t respond to was your question “How versatile is the round from high to low power?”

My loads run from plinking loads to elk hunting loads to what I call “Rhino Blaster” loads.  Here’s a sample

300g hardcast @ 1167fps using 13.5g HS-6.  Half the recoil of a .30-30 factory load, near one-hole accuracy, very effective out to 50 yards, penetrates 11 gallon-sized water jugs and keeps going.  My girls LOVE these loads, as do I.  Cost is around $2.60 per box of 20.

300g hardcast @ 1566fps using Varget.  One-hole accuracy at 50 yards.

300g Speer UCHP @ 2247fps using H4198.  Very accurate.  Penetrates 6 water jugs.  I shoot these out to 300 yards.  They are a primary practice round.

350g Speer JSP @ 2147fps using H4198.  This is an excellent load and will take anything in North America.  Penetrates 8 water jugs.  This is my backup hunting load.

350g North Fork (bonded) @ 2183fps.  This is my elk and deer hunting round.  Very accurate, also good for anything in North America.  Penetrates 6 water jugs.  (Expands more than the Speer 350, which was designed for .458 Win Mag velocities.)

405g Remington JSP at 1732fps with Varget to 1952fps using H4198.  Reasonable recoil at the low speed and will kill most anything.  At the high end this load is a thumper on both ends.

460g Hardcast @ 1812fps.  Near one-hole accuracy at 50 yards with iron sights.  This is my “Rhino Blaster” load.  Penetrates 9 water jugs.  If this load won’t stop it, pray!

500g Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid @ 1554fps.  Surprisingly mild recoil.  Penetrates 9 water jugs and keeps going.  This load must not be loaded in the tube magazine due to the bullet design. 

These are but a sample – I’ve developed 18-19 different loads for the .45-70.  As they say, the .45-70 goes “from mild to wild”.

[totallycustom]

Well I am glad this thread is still going, my 45/70 is not, I had it on order in the spring about when this thread was started but they couldnt really find one and didnt tell me.  I have called all over the state of washington looking for a marlin cowboy in 45/70 no luck no distributors have one either.  So I am kinda on hold, which is a shame becuase I was going to use it for deer this year and have a long range silhouette shoot with my buds for my bachelor party in three weeks. I am still looking I am also thinking about getting maybe a ruger no.1, time will tell.

Thanks for all the great responses.

-TC-

[CallaoJoe]

Here's a couple on Gunsamerica...  Sposed to be NIB for $750 & $629......

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976727228.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976709754.htm

[CallaoJoe]

Just another one, with good pics....  $649

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976710331.htm

This one's $545..

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976787403.htm

[Ramrod]

I see alot of posts here about the .45-70, it's sure been arond for a while. I guess I will just throw my two cents in here and then just duck when all the "it must be better because it's American" types respond. Sorry, but the .45-70 is a nice close range deer-elk gun. Yes, it can be loaded near to a .458 Win Mag, but in the light rifles the round is usually chambered in it will kick the living snot out of you for absolutly no real benifit. It won't kill any better than a .375 H&H, nor will it penetrate as well. You will never shoot it as well offhand as you can shoot a bolt action real big game gun. Paper ballistics and bench rest tests mean absolutly nothing in the real hunting world. A good reliable .375 H&H in a decent rifle like a Winchester Safari is not only proven life insurance in coastal Alaska, it also shoots flat enough to make 300 yard shots pretty damn easy.

[kombi1976]

Ramrod, I appreciate your feelings on the 45-70 but for a moment let's consider the origins behind each cartridge.
The 375 H&H was specifically designed for plains game & dangerous game hunting in Africa which requires long range hard hitting power and it benefitted from a strong action and smokeless powder from the beginning.
The 45-70 has under gone a series of evolutionary changes as it changed from a BP military cartridge and a buffalo hunter's choice, then to a lever action cartridge with smokeless loads and finally as a modern single shot or bolt action cartridge capable of handling pressures of 50k+ psi.
At no point was it designed as a FLAT 300yd cartridge.
But it can shoot very accurately over very long distances, as proved in it's buffalo and target days, providing the sights used are suitable.
The 458 Win is not a flat shooter at 300yds either both have a PBR around 200yds with full house loads.
Essentially, it's apples and oranges.
So, yes, the 375 H&H is possibly the most flexible big game cartridge in the world but it also has drawbacks.
It's magnum length, making rifles pricey.
The recoil of the 375 is also considerable.
And the case taper that makes it fast cycling also means cases stretch a fair bit.
Plus at the end of the day a 45-70 lever still cycles faster.
I have a Martini Henry action that will be chambered either to 45-70 or 45-90 and it's single shot nature will enable me to use the bullets designed for the 458 Win and be good for water buff.
And with 300gn jacketted pills it should shoot fairly flat too, if not to 300yds.
Everything you said about the 375 is right, but I might hazard a guess that 45-70 has more often been life insurance for people hunting in Alaska than 375 H&H.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
BTW, in my experience there is nothing about 300yd shots that is pretty damn easy, especially when using a gun with the not-inconsiderable recoil of the 375 H&H.

[CallaoJoe]

I shoot the 45-70 for Nostalgia as much as anything else.  Plus, it's a fun cartridge to reload.

There are definitely better cartridges for killing game at distances outside of 100 yds....  If that was the only reason to buy a rifle, we'd all be shooting 7mags, or 270 wthby, or any number of other high performance cartidges.  But there are many places where you'll never have more than an 80 - 100 shot on deer.  I've only killed 5 or 6 that were more than 150 yds out.

So, for me that's part of why I like the 45-70, plus my 45-70 rifle is a real eye catcher....

[ggeilman]

I remember reading on one of the boards how the 45/70 was not capable of downing really big game. Well, I can't speak from experience but while I was searching for ammo I came accross this: GARRETT'S 45-70 +P EXITER AMMO
500-GRAIN SPEER TUNGSTEN SOLID AT 1530-FPS
FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, AND MARLIN REPEATING RIFLES

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp

Made for elephants, rhino and hippo! And oh yeah, they don't recommend using it with single shot rifles!

[quickdtoo]

I wouldn't hesitate to use a 525gr BTB Piledriver at 1800+fps on anything that walks this earth.

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

[Golsovia]

Ruger #1 - 45-70

350 North Fork

246 yards

Bam-Flop!

This time I didn't find I had been subsidizing IMR and Hodgdons in vain! (I had some luck! )

[nomosendero]

Ruger #1 - 45-70

350 North Fork

246 yards

Bam-Flop!

This time I didn't find I had been subsidizing IMR and Hodgdons in vain! (I had some luck! )

Very impressive bang flop!!! 

No doubt the bullet did exactly what it was supposed to, but did you get to see the wound channel & please tell us about the bullet
path/penetration. Most impressive!

[Golsovia]

It was a simple, clean shot through the "boiler room" entering the last major rib on one side churning through the lungs, past the heart and out through the shoulder blade on the opposite side. It looked as if someone had driven a 3/4"pipe through the animal, pausing to stir a bit in the lungs. It was a straight path through without the usual drama one finds when bullets are supersonic x2. The bullet exitted.

[nomosendero]

Thanks for the info & congrats!!

[ggeilman]

I wouldn't hesitate to use a 525gr BTB Piledriver at 1800+fps on anything that walks this earth.

Tim

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv

So what would the velocity increase to with an 1895CB with a 26" octagonal?

[quickdtoo]

So what would the velocity increase to with an 1895CB with a 26" octagonal?

I don't know, I haven't shot it in my .45-70 Buffalo Classic with its 32" barrel. I just throated it so I could shoot the bigger bullets, their short throats prevented loading full length with big slugs. I've shot the BTB Piledriver in my .45-120 BC, 1800fps is easy with healthy loads of H4895, so that would be my powder of choice for the 1895CB, the velocity increase may be worth the recoil!!

Tim

[Coyote Hunter]

...From what I've learned, the 45/70 traditional bullets kill by penetration and they typically don't expand.  (The new Hornady's are likely an exception) .  ...

Its true the hardcast bullets don't expand much, although they will to a small degree.  They can also penetrate like there is no tomorrow.  A 300g hardcast leaving the barrel at 1167fps will penetrate 11 water-filled "Family Size" orange juice jugs and bury itself in a dirt berm behind the jugs.  The only other bullet/load I have that comes close is a 500g Speer African Grand Slam Tungsten Solid at 1554fps - that load will do 9 jugs and more, but my one test exited the side of the ninth jug leaving the subject of how many more in question.  A 460g hardcast doing 1812fps stopped in the 9th jug.

Expanding bullets will expand, however.  My favorites are the North Fork 350g bonded which expand well out to at least 213 yards.  (I have a 6x6 bull to prove it.)  The Speer 350g is another favorite of mine and it expands well in water jug tests.  Haven't tried the Swift 350g A-Frame ut would expect similar performance to the North Fork - excellent.

[Demonical]

I see alot of posts here about the .45-70, it's sure been arond for a while. I guess I will just throw my two cents in here and then just duck when all the "it must be better because it's American" types respond. Sorry, but the .45-70 is a nice close range deer-elk gun. Yes, it can be loaded near to a .458 Win Mag, but in the light rifles the round is usually chambered in it will kick the living snot out of you for absolutly no real benifit. It won't kill any better than a .375 H&H, nor will it penetrate as well. You will never shoot it as well offhand as you can shoot a bolt action real big game gun. Paper ballistics and bench rest tests mean absolutly nothing in the real hunting world. A good reliable .375 H&H in a decent rifle like a Winchester Safari is not only proven life insurance in coastal Alaska, it also shoots flat enough to make 300 yard shots pretty damn easy.

That is simply not true. The .458WM can fire a 500gr bullet at 2150 fps and the .45-70 only does 1700 fps with a 400gr bullet, and I know guys will claim they load their 400gr bullets to 1800 fps or something...
But really it's not even close.

[Golsovia]

I see alot of posts here about the .45-70, it's sure been arond for a while. I guess I will just throw my two cents in here and then just duck when all the "it must be better because it's American" types respond. Sorry, but the .45-70 is a nice close range deer-elk gun. Yes, it can be loaded near to a .458 Win Mag, but in the light rifles the round is usually chambered in it will kick the living snot out of you for absolutly no real benifit. It won't kill any better than a .375 H&H, nor will it penetrate as well. You will never shoot it as well offhand as you can shoot a bolt action real big game gun. Paper ballistics and bench rest tests mean absolutly nothing in the real hunting world. A good reliable .375 H&H in a decent rifle like a Winchester Safari is not only proven life insurance in coastal Alaska, it also shoots flat enough to make 300 yard shots pretty damn easy.

That is simply not true. The .458WM can fire a 500gr bullet at 2150 fps and the .45-70 only does 1700 fps with a 400gr bullet, and I know guys will claim they load their 400gr bullets to 1800 fps or something...
But really it's not even close.

They are so "apples and oranges" that saying one's close to the other or not isn't really even the question. Sure they overlap, but they really fill two different niches. And yes, the 375 would probably be a better all around cartridge than the 45-70; so would the 30-06. Even so, the 45-70 is one heck of a lot of fun to hunt with.

Some "facts": the 45-70 with 300 grain expanding premiums can out-penetrate the 375 with 300 grain expanding premiums. (That's easily doubted, but try it.)

The 45-70, in a properly strong gun like a Ruger #1 can exceed 1700 fps with 500 grain SPs. It will also easily reach 2000 fps with 400 SPs. (Yes, they recoil like all get out in light rifles. No, they don't match the 458 Win Mag.) 500 grain expanders are not likely going to expand reliably at 45-70 velocities; 500 grain cast will penetrate very, very well in the 45-70 though and probably right6 along with the same bullet going faster in the 458.

What would I prefer when guiding? The 375 does more things including making those 300 yard shots when necessary. If everything was tight alder patch situations, I would very likely rather have a good lever 45-70 though.

They're both good and neither kills better than the other. They both work if the operator does the job.

[jrlinz]

I load a 405 gr. Idaho Territory lead bullet to 2000 fps, in a Marlin 1895CB, and I rarely get a shot over 150 yds. here in Big Thicket country (East Texas).  But, I do not normally have to trail any deer or hogs I do shoot.  It seems to anchor them pretty good, after they stop rolling.

[opatriot]

 Great thread.....Yall have answered just about all my questions ....I just loaded up some 405gr. lasercast bullets and was wondering what kind of performance i could expect ........thanx ...davey

[EsoxLucius]

I just loaded up some 405gr. lasercast bullets and was wondering what kind of performance i could expect ........thanx ...davey

Shoot something and it will likely die.

[Scott T]

The .45-70 was designed as a military cartridge when men rode horses.  It proved itself on the buffalo range.

I still use it for everything today.  Here are a couple of very dead critters who dropped right where they stood in November 2006.




I shoot black powder and can take deer out to 300 with this rifle.  BUT, I shoot it all year round.  Her name is Big Nose Kate and we get along fine!

[Redhawk1]

The .45-70 was designed as a military cartridge when men rode horses.  It proved itself on the buffalo range.

I still use it for everything today.  Here are a couple of very dead critters who dropped right where they stood in November 2006.
I shoot black powder and can take deer out to 300 with this rifle.  BUT, I shoot it all year round.

Very nice animals you got there Scott T. Nice Sharps rifle you got there.  I have a Shiloh Sharps rifle in 45-70 that I only shoot black powder in. Great rifle and round. 

[jrlinz]

I bought my 45/70 for popping pigs in heavy brush.  It is often argued that a big is no harder to bring down than a deer.  I disagree.  There are certain anatomical concerns when shooting a pig, related to penetration.  The angle used to access the boiler room becomes more critical with a light-weight bullet.  My personal feeling (based on real life experiences) is that the fast, big, hard, flat-nosed  bullet handles brush much better than a hyper-speed lighter, pointed projectile.  It is faster-handling in brush, and faster to rechamber a round than any bolt-action I have used.  And it has knockdown power that is (again IMO) far above those smaller, lighter, faster bullets.  My imagination can come up with several outcomes to a blotched shot at a charging boar that would be infinitely more unappealing than anything I can think of as a result of a poorly placed shot at a deer.  If I am close, but not right on the vitals, I want it to hurt! I do not want it to just piss him off. 

I now use the 45/70 for deer too, as I don't like a wounded buck after dark if I can help it.

The 45/70 Gov't is powerful medicine for wild boar.  When "Ol' Beulah" (45/70 Marlin 1895CB) speaks, pigs lay down.  If they ever don't, but come lookin' for trouble, "Nellie" (45 LC Ruger Vaquero) is always by my side, ready and willing to have her say, even if I drop Beulah.

[Mac11700]

I see alot of posts here about the .45-70, it's sure been arond for a while. I guess I will just throw my two cents in here and then just duck when all the "it must be better because it's American" types respond. Sorry, but the .45-70 is a nice close range deer-elk gun. Yes, it can be loaded near to a .458 Win Mag, but in the light rifles the round is usually chambered in it will kick the living snot out of you for absolutly no real benifit. It won't kill any better than a .375 H&H, nor will it penetrate as well. You will never shoot it as well offhand as you can shoot a bolt action real big game gun. Paper ballistics and bench rest tests mean absolutly nothing in the real hunting world. A good reliable .375 H&H in a decent rifle like a Winchester Safari is not only proven life insurance in coastal Alaska, it also shoots flat enough to make 300 yard shots pretty damn easy.

I wonder just how may big game animals will have to fall before folks like this fully understand the capabilities of the 45-70???It never ceases to amaze me that folks still believe this kinda crap...I guess they are just stuck in the 60's...I guess they still think Lever Guns are still 4" shooters too..... ....Sure...there will always be flatter shooting cartridges...but none with the nostolga the 45-70 brings to the table...Do they kick hard in light weight rifles?...DUHHHHHHH....EITHER ONE WILL....I'll take my 1895 XLR loaded to the max over any 375 H&H bolt gun I've shot as far as recoil...and yea...I can hunt out to 300 yards with mine...even further if I want...

Mac

[Scott T]

Trajectory of even the black powder loads that I shoot is not that big a deal.  You simply must burn some powder to figure out where it will hit.  A 200yd shot on a standing deer is duck soup with my Shiloh.  But, I do burn a lot of powder through the year.