Author Topic: Thought I new it all about crimps, guess not... (Read 1437 times)

Bullseye · « **on:** May 30, 2006, 06:58:54 AM »

For years I have been reloading for revolvers, lever actions and Contenders and Encores. All pistol calibers and lever action rounds I crimp to keep the bullets from backing out in the cylinder or tube. Contender and Encore rifle rounds I never crimp except for the 375 Winchester and 45-70 to get rid of the belling of the case mouth from the second die.

Now I bought a Remington 7600 pump gun in 30-06. I assumed you would crimp these to keep the bullets from walking out of the case in the magazine, but most of the bullets do not have a crimp groove.

Do these need crimped or not to prevent jams in the magazine? This gun may be too high tech for me, I should have stuck with my lever actions and single shots! :grin:

jack19512 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2006, 10:12:58 AM »

I reload for rifles only and use Lee dies and if I am not mistaken they will still crimp even if the bullet doesn't have a crimp groove.

PaulS · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2006, 11:30:55 AM »

Lee and some of the other reloading people including Speer warn against crimping any bullet that does not have a cannelure. You should either switch bullets to some with a cannelure or bet that they will be pushed down into the case by the recoil and magazine spring.
The reason you don't crimp bullets without cannelures is that the cartridge brass will spring back and so will the bullet jacket but the lead in the bullet won't. leaving you with loose bullets in the jackets - bullets that can separate from their jackets in the bore - leaving the jacket for the next bullet to run into and blow the rifle barrel.

You can try a taper crimp but they do not hold very well and you may get bullets pushed into the case anyway. The safe thing to do is get bullets with cannelures.

steve4102 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2006, 11:52:40 AM »

LEE recommends crimping bullets with No cannelures using their Lee Factory Crimp Die.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1149025526.2292=/html/catalog/dies-crimp.html

I use the LFCD for my autoloaders and none of my bullets have cannelures. In my case accuracy is increased with the use of the LFCD.

Over at the Accurate Reloading site under FAQ there is some interesting reading on the use of the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

sui generis · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2006, 01:33:36 PM »

"Lee and some of the other reloading people including Speer warn against crimping any bullet that does not have a cannelure."

Actually, Lee recommends it. It was Speer that got their knickers in a twist. Some years back, there was quite a little fire-fight in the gun rag ads.

However: crimping should never be expected to correct case-sizing deficiencies.

trotterlg · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2006, 03:19:52 AM »

Lee recommends crimping all bullets except Speer with the factory crimp die, Speer says do not crimp their bullets, so lee says not to crimp Speer bullets because Speer says not to. I have used the Lee factory crimp die for my 22-250 and it works great, puts a neet little cannular right in a bullet if you want. Still nice and accurate, so go ahead and crimp. Larry

PaulS · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2006, 07:00:52 PM »

Yep! and you can size jacketed bullets from .358 down to .338 in a lubrisizer too.
Don't do it! the core and jacket will almost alway separate because of the resiliency of the jacket and lack of reilience of the lead core.

BTW, If you go to the Speer sight you will find out that they are quite happy for all the customers that Lee sends them with the "no crimp" story. You can also find out why you don't deform jacketed bullets and then load them into live ammo.

trotterlg · « **Reply #7 on:** June 02, 2006, 01:09:40 PM »

A bullet with a cannular in it has it formed after the bullet is made, not before the lead is put in, same way you put a crimp in a bullet with a Lee factory crimper. If you haven't tried it don't knock it, they work great and make for some extremely consistant velocities. Some rifles have to use a crimped round to be safe to shoot. Larry

jack19512 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2006, 05:23:21 PM »

All I know is that I have used the Lee dies since I started reloading and I crimp all of my rifle rounds whether they have a cannular or not and I think I have reloaded some really good ammo in my opinion with 0 problems of any kind.

steve4102 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2006, 04:16:58 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg

A bullet with a cannular in it has it formed after the bullet is made, not before the lead is put in, same way you put a crimp in a bullet with a Lee factory crimper. Larry

That is a very good point! I will have to remember that one.

Thanks

PaulS · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2006, 05:07:43 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg

A bullet with a cannular in it has it formed after the bullet is made, not before the lead is put in, same way you put a crimp in a bullet with a Lee factory crimper. If you haven't tried it don't knock it, they work great and make for some extremely consistant velocities. Some rifles have to use a crimped round to be safe to shoot. Larry

Yes, the cannelure is rolled into the bullet but there isn't a cartridge around it when they roll in the cannelure. Two other things that have not yet been brought up.
what happens to the ballistic coefficient of that bullet after you press a crimp in it?
How is accuracy after you swage a crimp through the caseinto the bullet jacket and the lead core?

The reason the cannelure is rolled in is to keep the center of gravity in line with the core and jacket - swaging doesn't do that. Your crimp doesn't look anything like a factory cannelure.

The ballistic coefficient is gone! It is nothing like what it was.

Speer, Sierra and an independent Gun writer all found that accuracy was degraded by 40% when crimped in the Lee factory crimp die when the bullets did not have a cannelure to begin with. I guess if you can live with a 40% increase in your group size its ok to ignore the advice of the bullet manufacturer. I like my sub-MOA groups.

hunt127588 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2006, 05:32:55 PM »

Sounds like we need a shoot-off b/t crimped and non-crimped with no cannelure.

Bullseye · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2006, 05:56:53 PM »

All this debate about the Lee Dies and crimp grooves is great.

But what I would really still like to know is whether I NEED to crimp a
30-06 in a Remington 7600 with a Box Magazine to keep the bullets from moving in the case during recoil.

sgtt · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2006, 08:14:40 PM »

I don't see why they would "walk" in a 7600 magazine anymore than they would in a bolt gun. So, I would say no.

daddywpb · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2006, 10:02:28 PM »

The Lee Factory Crimp Dies are great. I use one for every rifle caliber I load for and most of the handguns. They give you a good solid crimp, and you don't have to be on a cannelure to do it. You'll never buckle a bottle nose case again if you use one.

jack19512 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2006, 10:31:43 PM »

Posted by PaulS

"Speer, Sierra and an independent Gun writer all found that accuracy was degraded by 40% when crimped in the Lee factory crimp die when the bullets did not have a cannelure to begin with. I guess if you can live with a 40% increase in your group size its ok to ignore the advice of the bullet manufacturer. I like my sub-MOA groups."

I am no expert at reloading but I sure have to disagree with the above statement. I checked and found that I only had a couple bullets that I reload for that does not have a cannelure.

The .223 bullets that I reload for my .223 Ultra and the 165gr. Hornady Interbond bullets that I reload for my K31.

I do not know if any of the .223 bullets have a cannelure or not but the couple brands I have didn't. A couple days ago, and this may have been just luck but I tried a different load for my .223 Ultra and I put 3 shots into one ragged hole from 100 yards using my reloads that had been crimped with the Lee die. My son-in-law was with me and witnessed this.

Here is a pic of the best group I have shot so far with my K31. It was with my reloads using the 165gr. Hornady Interbond bullets and crimped with the lee die. If I could decrease this group size by 40% I would be one happy camper. :grin:

jack19512 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2006, 10:55:47 PM »

Posted by Bullseye

"But what I would really still like to know is whether I NEED to crimp a
30-06 in a Remington 7600 with a Box Magazine to keep the bullets from moving in the case during recoil."

Myself, I would say yes. But my reason for crimping is because when I first started reloading I neck sized only with no crimp on my rifle bullets and I had a couple rounds that I had some bullet set back on.

Now this may have been entirely my fault but since I started crimping all my rounds I haven't had any problems and my best groups so far have been with rounds that I have crimped.

I should say this also. It is my understanding that any ammo that will be used for hunting purposes should be crimped. Since all of my rifles may at some point be used for hunting and all the ammo I reload for them would be used for this purpose also I feel better knowing the ammo has a crimp.

I do realize that if you are using this rifle and ammo for target shooting your situation may be different from mine. :grin:

steve4102 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 04, 2006, 03:50:02 AM »

This is one of my targets shooting a 7.62x39 (five shot group 100 yards) using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

This is one of my 100 yard targets shooting my Browning BAR 300WSM using the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

I talked with Speer and they told me that using the Lee Factory Crimp Die on their bullets will decrease accuracy by 40% even if the bullet has a cannelure. JMHO, but I think they are taking this pissing contest with Lee overboard.
I have also talked with Sierra and the use of the LFCD was never approved of or disapproved of. I just know it works.

PaulS · « **Reply #18 on:** June 04, 2006, 06:05:32 AM »

Quote from: Bullseye

All this debate about the Lee Dies and crimp grooves is great.

But what I would really still like to know is whether I NEED to crimp a
30-06 in a Remington 7600 with a Box Magazine to keep the bullets from moving in the case during recoil.

Bullseye,

Sorry about the "hijacking" of the thread. In my 30 plus years of shooting my 30-06 (box magazine) I have never crimped a single round and never experienced any problems with bullets jumping or being pushed into the cases. I neck size only and have for most of the time reloading for the 30-06. My answer would be no, it is not necessary to crimp for any stacked type of magazine for rounds up to and including the 358 Winchester and 30-06. In rifles with tubular magazines you may need to crimp (I suppose that is why the bullets are made with a cannelure on them)

Bullseye · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2006, 06:54:19 AM »

Thanks for getting back on topic. I assumed you did not need to crimp since I did not think you crimped for a bolt action (but then again I have never owned a bolt action). I also figured you did not since most 30 caliber bullets do not have a crimp groove unless they are intended for something like a 30-30 lever gun, but I was just not sure.

I understand the purpose of the Lee Die, but quite honestly unless I need to crimp for reasons of holding the bullet in place or to help with ignition to improve accuracy, I do not want to crimp at all.

I guess none of this really matters at the present time though. Even though word on the street has it that Remingtons quality is going down hill, I bought this brand new 7600 anyway. I reloaded some rounds the other night and they will not chamber. The bolt comes within about an inch of closing. I tried some factory ammo with the same result. I am getting ready to fool with it some more now. I thought they fired a gun at the factory before they shipped it? 4 of the 8 new guns I have puchased in the last two years have had some kind of problem. The bad thing is that 3 of the 4 good ones were made Italy and Turkey. 3 of the 4 bad ones were made in the USA by longtime gun manufactures.

PaulS · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2006, 07:37:23 AM »

Bullseye,

Is the rifle marked 30-06?
An inch short of chambering with factory rounds is suspect. If it stamped as 30-06 and not 300 savage or 308 then I would take it back where you bought it and get it checked.
When loading for this gun you may have to use small base dies to get the case back to factory dimensions in order to chamber but a factory round should always chamber in a commercial barrel.
There is something drastically wrong if a factory round is only getting to within one inch of closing. Check it over and let us know what you find, OK?

jack19512 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 04, 2006, 12:39:59 PM »

So PaulS, are you saying that if Bullseye plans on using his 30-06 for hunting he still doesn't need to crimp and what I have been told is untrue about the need to crimp rounds if their intended use is for hunting? Which I assume is for safety reasons mainly. :grin:

Swamp Yankee · « **Reply #22 on:** June 04, 2006, 01:54:05 PM »

Goodevening all,
I am not sure if Lee Reloading is a site sponser, but I have been thinking that if they are maybe they should be contacted and have this question put to rest once and for all. I have seen it come up before and have many different numbers put out there with no reliable sorceses. I guess it is not my place to ask but maybe Graybeard or one of our Mods like Paul would do us the honors, I'm sure we would all appreciate it. I use The Lee crimpings die for my 357 revolver and for my30/30 lever gun for obvious reasons. Come to think of it I have five sets of dies and they are all Lee. The rest of my equipment is a mixture of everything from Forsters to Redding and then some.... Sorry I got off track So can you help us out guys?.....Jim

sgtt · « **Reply #23 on:** June 04, 2006, 05:45:28 PM »

Jack19512 -

Who told you, you had to crimp "hunting" rounds. Interestingly enough I do it just the opposite. I never neck size hunting rounds and crimp only if the round is being used in a tubular magazine or a violent action. ie AR15 etc It sounds to me your neck expander may have been a tad too large.

jack19512 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 05, 2006, 07:15:06 AM »

sgtt

I have been trying to remember where I picked up the "crimp all hunting rounds thing". I am sure it is just a saftey precaution because hunting ammo is probably more apt to be handled differently than target ammo.

I am sure that the rounds I had trouble with were my fault and not the ammo or equipment. This mourning I loaded six rounds for my K31. Three were crimped and three were not.

I tried to insure everything else was as equal as possible so that the crimp would be the only difference in the rounds. I will shoot them and post the results.

I sure don't buy this 40% deal though because I have had the best accuracy from the rounds that I have crimped, not the opposite.

jack19512 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 05, 2006, 08:42:53 AM »

Heres the pics. Like I said I did everything I know to make this a fair test. Heres without a crimp.

Heres with a crimp.

And heres a 5 shot group of my .223 Ultra. Crimp of course. :grin:

It looks like it was close between the crimp and no crimp but I give the crimp the edge. Of course it could have been my shooting too, I don't know. Me, I'll stay with a crimp. I forgot to add all shots were from 100 yards.

sharps4590 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 05, 2006, 11:31:24 AM »

I loaded my first smokeless, bottleneck cartridge case back in the late 60's for a Mod. 70 Win. in 270 Win.. I know lots of you guys have been loading that long and some of you a lot longer than that!!!! I didn't crimp that cartridge and haven't crimped any for a bolt action or the semi-auto's or any Savage 1899 or 99. As I learned more I started neck sizing only. I've never experienced the first problem with any hunting loads. That isn't to say that problems can't crop up but I don't believe they would be caused by the crimp unless using old, tired, much fired brass. I've always found neck tension to be more than adequate.

I have to say I've never loaded for any Weatherby magnums or the AR-15/M-16 or the M-1A so I have no experience with any military action. They may be of violent enough action to require crimping. I don't know. I just know that no bolt action I ever reloaded for required a crimp for accuracy or dependable ignition, not even my 375 H&H......and I never argue with sub-MOA groups.

Vic

Bullseye · « **Reply #27 on:** June 05, 2006, 02:23:36 PM »

Well I think I got the 7600 working. Looking at it again yesterday, I could see nothing wrong so I finally pushed the forearm forward with some authority and the round chambered. Did it a few more times and it got better. I took it to the gunstore I bought it at tonight and we chambered some factory rounds and it just kept getting better. The concensus was that that gun has an extractor made of spring steel and it is either real tight or had a small burr. We decided it would probably get better after a little use as much as it has already improved, so it is time to go shooting!

As much as it has improved with a little cycling, I might have to take back my negative comments about Big Green.

jack19512 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 05, 2006, 03:30:04 PM »

Posted by sharps4590

"and I never argue with sub-MOA groups."

I feel the same way. I haven't been reloading for very long but feel that I am turning out some real good ammo, most very accurate as well.

I crimp all of my ammo now, not sure what the difference is between the crimp and no crimp way of thinking but as long as whatever way you choose works for you that is all that matters.

I am quite happy with the load that I have for my K98. Even though it does have a crimp. :-D

jack19512 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 06, 2006, 04:58:28 AM »

sgtt

Finally found one of the sources where they recommend crimping all hunting rounds. When I first got into reloading I started with the Lee Anniversary kit.

On page 56 of my Modern Reloading second edition manual that came with the kit it says Quote: "Ammunition loaded for hunting should always have the bullets crimped in place".

Now of course as seen here there are those that disagree just as with any other subject up for debate. Who is right and who is wrong I sure don't know.