Hard casting......whats the difference?

[kombi1976]

So far my gun locker is made up of high powered rifles and as such I've been using jacketted projectiles but I'm looking at cartridges like 375 Win, 38-55, 40-65, 444 Marlin and 45-70 where the term "hard cast bullets" seems to arise so often.
So here's a few dumb questions from a guy who is a complete beginner to casting:
Is there a different process used for hard casting?
Can you do it yourself?
Is the alloy different?
How much difference does it actually make on game, especially really big game?
Thanks, lads. :wink:

[Dusty Miller]

The phrase "hard-cast bullet" is by-in-large a marketing term.  What constitutes a "hard" bullet is primarily up to the individual.  My #2 allow normally drops a 12 BHN bullet (according to my LBT tester) but if I drop'm into water they come out in the neighborhood of 15 BHN.  I'm not sure if that's considered "hard-cast" by many but with a gas check on the bottom they don't lead my barrel but very little and I've shot some real screamers thru my .44 mag and 454 Casull.  I know some folks use a lot of antimony in their mix and come up with bullets in the 20+ BHN range but my guess is they are pretty brittle, could be wrong (I've been wrong before, as my wife more or less constantly points out!!).

[kombi1976]

Is your wife friends with mine?  :lol:
I have used some cast bullets for Martini Cadet Sporter in 25-20 but it left unburnt powder all over the joint and shot like a dog, and an arthritic old dog at that.
Since it groups an inch at 100yds with jacketted 75gn FPs I figured I'd stop wasting my time and leave the cast bullets alone.
But I bought a Martini Enfield action and a gunsmith her in Australia builds custom switch barrel Martinis so I'm looking for the right big bore to have it chambered to.
I intend to have barrels in 303 Brit, 7x65R and a 12g barrel with a 2 1/2" chamber as well.
But I really need a cal that will take down an Asiatic water buffalo should the opportunity arise for me to shoot up north.
They aren't nearly as mean as a Cape Buffalo but are almost equal in terms of muscle and bone density and you need to make that first shot count, especially using a single shot rifle.
It would also be cool to play with BP loads so good cast bullets are important.

[Lloyd Smale]

I consider any bullet ww or harder as hard cast

[jhalcott]

Kombi, hard cast bullets are USUALLY cast of linotype or heat treated wheel weight alloy to a BHN of over 20. They are supposed to allow you to get high velocity and VERY deep penetration. drop over to http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ and ask this question there. Hard cast can cause worse leading than softer alloys for a variety of reasons.Often the bullet isn't sized for the barrel. When they are correct for the gun/load used ,they perform great.Accuracy ,velocity and penetration are very good to excellent.

[ron haralson]

It's certainly a loose term. I use two alloys for casting - 20 - 1 lead/tin for 45 - 70 and wheelweights + 2% tin for .257, 6.5 x 55 and some of my .30 calibres.

It's been my experience that my 45 - 70 shoots more accurately with the 20 : 1, and that's even at the higher velocity loads. I shoot a rolling block, so don't really push it, but my 30 - 30 achieves higher velocity than anyone gets with 45 - 70 using the soft alloy. Note that 30 - 30 has a 1 : 12" twist compared to the 1 : 22" twist in 45 - 70.

If you want to cast hard bullets, the ww + 2% dropped from the mold into a milk carton of water with a rag on the bottom. After 4 or 5 days, you won't be able to mark one of those bullets with your thumb nail.

Hope this is some help.
                                                             Ron

[iiranger]

   Thru the Am. Civil War, circa 1865, pure lead was o.k. With the coming of cartridges the main additive for hardness was tin. Harvey Donaldson, who competed with black powder false muzzle rifles, said the 30 to 1, lead to tin was very good. Some preferred 20 to 1. More recently, pure lead has become less available cheap and wheel weights for balancing car wheels have become very available. Unfortunately the alloy is not guaranteed at all. Just the weight. At one time they had tin in them. Then tin got expensive and left out. Usually they had antimony in them. While this hardens things, it does not cause an alloy that resists "leading" i.e. deposits in the bore. Lyman has several books on all this. Lymna #2 alloy had all three, lead, tin, and antimony.
   Lyman seems to recommend that 2200  feet per second. be the top velocity expected of a lead bullet. If you are serious about that water buffalo... I would suggest that you look hard at the .405 Winchester. It is the .303 case with a little extra length and came out in the time, circa 1895, when smokeless pressures were adopted. 45K CUP approx. T. Roosevelt used a .405 in a Winchester lever action in Africa and thought well of it. Since this is the same pressure range of current USA .303 loadings, I cannot see any major troubles. .38/56 and .40/65 WCF were also on the .45/70 case. While it is not the strongest case, there are some loads listed for anything stronger than trap door springfields, (US army rifle after Civil War) like today's Marlin 95 that will get heavy bullets up to 2,000 feet per second. The other thing is a shoulder on the bullet. Cuts a clean hole in the flesh and lets in cold air. Makes breathing laborsome and animal expires quickly...
   Frankly, I cannot see both .303 and .7.65 R. Too close to the same for me, but it is your bucks/call. Another thought, go with a 3.5 inch 12 guage and the slugs available for same.There was one 12 load  supposedly plenty for elephants that weren't too mad and after you. Well, maybe a little underpowered. Up north, here, that 2.5 12 gauge is not common and what is said, a very light gun for fast use on small birds. With the bolt set up, no reason you could not have another barrel with alot more beef for the 3.5.
   A Mr. Epps, of Canada, did alot of development with the .303. I think his biggest was a .338/.303 Improved. You might want to explore this. US .30/40 Krag cartridge used about the same rim and base for this sort of thing in US. LUCK

[gphillips6250]

You have brought up a subject that is not easily answered. If you could find yourself a copy of the old "Cast Bullets" book by Col. E.H. Harrison, which is an NRA publication, it really concentrates more
on casting for rifle use than handgun, which sounds like you. For revolver/pistol use the alloy can be
relatively soft. As a matter of fact the great Elmer Keith rarely cast revolver bullet much harder than
1 to 20 tin to lead. For rifles, it's a whold different ball game. For cast bullets in rifles you need the
hardest alloy you can find. Linotype is the king of alloys if you can find it. You can order it but the shipping will kill you. You can experiment with wheel weights but over the years the alloy composition has changed radically. You can order some mighty nice hard cast bullet for rifle shooting
but then that takes all the fun out of casting. If you can come up with a suitable alloy to cast hard
bullets then heat treating will make them even harder. You can either drop them from the mold into
a bucket of cold water or you can reheat your bullets in an oven and drop them in a bucket of cold water.

You asked about the difference between hard casting and I presume you mean casting with softer alloys. For one thing, if the alloy is very hard, you will find the factory sprue cutter to be almost useless. I made my own sprue cutters from 3/16? flat ground tool steel and cut the sprue hole a bit
smaller than the factory hole and the angle of the pouring hole at 82 degrees. This sprue cutter will cut the hardest alloys.

Another tip about shooting cast bullets in rifles is that you almost have to devote a rifle to cast bullets and nothing but cast bullets. If you shoot jacketed bullets in a rifle and then shoot cast bullets in it you will have problems because the fouling from jacketed bullets will interfere with
the relatively softer lead alloy bullets and destroy accuracy. Also, once you shoot jacketed bullets in
a rifle, it is virtually impossible to remove all of the jacket fouling enough to allow you to shoot
cast bullets successfully. I have found this to be true from experience and have read the same in
print. So, if you want to play around with cast bullets in rifles, try to devote one to just cast bullets
if possible.

[kombi1976]

Ok, an update.......
Since my last post I decided against getting the switch bbl made.
It's just so expensive and I could buy 4 rifles for the 4 different bbls I'd like.
So instead it'll be chambered to 45-70.
Now, gphillips6250, you reckon I should stick either to cast bullets or jacketted?
How much difference do gas checks make in terms of fouling?
What about a good bullet lube?
Couldn't I just go to town with Sweets 7.62 I've I ever use jacketted loads in it and shine the bore up before running another cast load through it?
You talk about heat treating.
Is this as good as mucking around with alloys to develop harder ones as I'll be finding as lead where ever I can and doing my best with it that way?
Incidentally, do you have trouble swaging & gas checking bullets if they're fairly hard?

BTW, iiranger, 7x65R is the rimmed version of 7x64, the European equivalent of 280 Rem......not 7.65x53 the Argentinian Mauser round.
7x65R would sit between 280 Rem and 7x57 as it is loaded to lower levels for use in drillings and combo guns.
In a nice strong Martini however it is probably capable of a warmer load.
You are correct though.....7.65 Mauser is almost identical to 303 Brit in performance.
If I did chamber a Martini Henry to 12g it would have to be a 2 1/2" chamber as it won't feed anything longer.
But as the beginning of this post suggests, I won't be chambering it for either of these because of the cost.

[dakotashooter2]

It is hard to give an answer on the fouling question because of all the variables. It really takes some experimentation. Velocity, bullet design, bullet hardness, bullet size, lube and barrel condition all factor in. Hit the right combo and you shouldn't have any problems.