Author Topic: More T/C locking problems (Read 1572 times)

dubber123 · « **on:** June 11, 2006, 12:49:20 PM »

I have posted before about my problems keeping my 6 1/2" 50-70 Govt. Contender locked when firing. I ended up shimming the locking lug spring, and thought this cured the problem. It did for about 50 rounds. I shot it again and noticed the weird primer marks again. I changed the shimmed stock spring for a shortened Encore spring, and the problem is gone again. I then finally chronographed my 450 grain loads. I was only looking for 850 fps. These averaged 1012. These loads are actually mild, but the recoil in a 2 1/2 lb. gun is just too sharp for the T/C action. I guess it's back to the loading bench and see if I can tone them down while keeping accuracy up to par.

handirifle · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2006, 04:14:43 AM »

OK, while I'm no expert on handgun loads, or 45-70 loads I've owned, and shot both, so I'll put my $.02 in.

From a 6 1/2" barrel and your getting over 1000 fps with a 450gr bullet, and you're wondering why the frame is stretching? Is this a joke?

I haven't looked at the load manual but I'd bet your life your loads are nowhere near mild, they don't even sound like they are on the charts.

That velocity for a rifle barrel is mild but not for a 6 1/2" barrel. I've pushed 400gr slugs over 2000fps fron a 32" 45-70 barrel but can only imagine your loads have destroyed your gun. There is a HUGE amount of bolt thrust from a high pressure 45-70 case.

dubber123 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2006, 06:13:14 AM »

It's a 50-70, not a 45-70, but the same idea, big case in a small pistol. The 50-70 isn't much different case capacity-wise compared to a 500 Linebaugh Maximum, if anything it's probably bigger (less pressure for a given powder charge). The Maximums/ .500 S&w will throw this weight bullet to these speeds at I would guess around 20-25,000 c.u.p., which isn't considered by me to be "high pressure". The breech thrust is going to be higher based on the large case diameter. The problem is the gun weighs 2 1/2 pounds, and recoil is too sharp for the stock springs. My frame seems to have survived just fine, I can see no wear, and lock-up is as tight as the day I bought it. If it is "ruined" I hope it stays that way! I did tone down my loads, to around the 850 fps. that I wanted, and fully expect no further problems. My .475 Linebaugh does 1350 with 440 grainers out of a 4 3/4" barrel. Now thats some "high" pressure. I hope this helps clear this up for you.

KN · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2006, 12:08:28 PM »

dubber123, I have to agree with handirifle. Where are you getting your load data? Are you trying to cross reference some thing or are you actually using 50/70 data? What little data I have found suggests that you are way over max on your load to begin with. 1000fps in a 6-1/2" barrel with a 450gr 50cal bullet is hot!

dubber123 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2006, 01:36:39 PM »

Where I started was with a fellow loading a foreign cartridge thats very similar in case/bore size. It's close enough that he reloads with 50-70 dies. I started with his loads of Unique, and they didn't produce enough pressure to burn even this fast powder. I know this by the fact the case would be black all the way to the rim, with lots of unburned powder particles stuck between the case and chamber. I figured if it couldn't swell out a thin brass case till it sealed, it couldn,t be too hot. The loads I am currently shooting aren't that far from blackening the cases in this manner. Not that I want anyone to start with it, the 1000+ fps load is 16 grs. of Unique, which is still a long way from filling the case, I don't think it's even halfway. I also carefully chronographed all loads, and too much lower gets big vel. variations and crappy accuracy/dirty brass. I may be wrong, but not being potent enough to seal the case to the chamber is always an indicator of low pressure. I look forward to your response. Thanks.

Racepres · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2006, 03:36:53 PM »

You know what! I've had enough.. I had a 45/70 in the late 70's... Stayed locked no matter what! Still use that frame w/ my Herrett. I have heard of, and studied in person "Hand cannons" since that time. If the thing don't stay closed, someone is doing something wrong! Period. If you want a cannon.... BUY ONE. The poor old contender was designed around a 22rf in the beginning, and took years to evolve to the Mighty 357 Mag.. I personally think that yours is trying to "gently" tell you something! Please ... Please publicly record the s/n of yer frame so that me or my friends don't end up w/ it!!! You sir need an encore!!! they were made for you! Not really flamin' Just askin' for ya to take a hint!! MV

dubber123 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2006, 03:49:57 PM »

Well the fellow who turned me on to the stiffer spring solution had an Encore in 45-70. His was short and light, not as short or light as mine, and his came unlocked even harder than mine. Mine just leaves a funky primer mark. His Encore threw the occasional empty over his shoulder. I read farther back on this forum, (suggest you do also), and there are a lot of reports of them coming unlocked with alot smaller cartridges than this. I wish I could pressure test my loads, but don't have the capability. It's now working just fine, and bet it will continue to do so. There is another fellow with one on here with a longer barrel, and gets alot more power than me, and has done so for years. His gun was built by SSK, you know, one of the sponsors of this forum. I don't consider 450's at 850 or even 1000 a "cannon". If you do fine, there lots of .22 ones out there, and I hear Past makes a good recoil glove. Don,t bash people for trying different things if you are unwilling to do so. SN 268394. Not for sale, so sleep easy.

PaulS · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2006, 07:46:50 PM »

Dubber123,
I am willing to bet that this discussion could be resolved if you list your loads. The books will tell whether you are super-charging or cruising where the loads are concerned.
I had a break-open 410 shotgun that I used to load for that would pop open sometimes - it wasn't a contender but I figured I might be doing something wrong so I ran some factory rounds through it. Apparently it was just old enough that it wouldn't hold the pressure of even factory loads.
We can all assume anything as far as your problem but if you share the data we can stop assuming at least one thing - that you are overloading your gun. If we eliminate that we can go from there to help figure what is actually happening.

dubber123 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2006, 12:12:44 AM »

Actually Paul, I did post the load that broke 1000 fps. in the very post before I got jumped on. I myself have no way of measuring real pressure, so I delayed in printing anything until then. I have exactly 0 load data, and couldn't get any at all except from Hodgden, and that was for Trailboss, which I ordered immediately. If anyone has real data for Unique, which is what I am using, I would love to hear it. I am not sure of SAAMI specs for this cartridge, but I bet it's low. Please remember this is a little more modern gun than what this cartridge is designed for. My point being, if SAAMI says 25000 C.U.P. is max, and mine makes 26000, I don't think that should be past the capabilities of the T/C. With the big case, I don't think my pressures are too high, but who knows? I am doing little things like using Win pistol primers, (SOFT), and looking for even machine marks on them, and have never gotten any. I still believe it's the guns weight/recoil characteristics. My brothers 12" 45-70 makes more power, stays locked. It's longer and heavier.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2006, 01:52:15 AM »

dubber123, A lot of the posts above have good information and advice. Using a powder with no actual load data is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

dubber123 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2006, 02:35:23 AM »

I went back and checked on the data that got me started with Unique. It was in an article from the Cast Bullet Association. The cartridge I referenced is a Swedish cartridge, the 12.7X44R. Case specs are close enough that 50-70 dies are used to load it. The author made mention of an O.H. McKagen,(?) who used the load of 12 grs. of Unique in all of the old black powder straight-wall cartridges. the author used this charge with up to 515 gr bullets, as well as a Lyman that came in at 440 grs. I have been saying I'm using 450 grainers, but they actually cast out at 435, so I'm in the middle of his upper weight range. 12 grs. won't even swell out my brass enough to seal the chamber, so I loaded up till the cases were clean and I got good accuracy. Upon chronographing them at 1000+, I backed them down. Not necessarily because I am convinced the actual pressure is too high, but because 1- it's easier on the gun, and 2-I never wanted anymore than 850 fps. I just don't want people to miss out on a great combo due to speculation. I'm still listening. Thanks.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2006, 06:13:50 AM »

Have you considered using 70 gr. of Goex black powder? You would get the speed you need and you would not have to worry about pressure problems. Just a thought.

dubber123 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2006, 07:21:22 AM »

Redhawk1, I have a friend that nags me constantly about using black powder. Of course he would use it in his 1911 if he could. (I think he may have actually tried it). I have a pistol shoot this weekend, and he mentioned bringing some of the exact loads you mention. I would be curious to chronograph them to see if they would break 800 fps. They would have a long way to go to match the smokeless, accuracy wise. The faster they went, the better they shot. The 1000+ load shot a .558" and a .8" back to back at 50 yds. (3 shot groups). Thats probably how I ended up shooting them this warm. I have to re-chronograph the lighter loads, but I am expecting 850 fps. or so. I tried 2 or 3 groups that ran around 1-1/2" @ 50 yds. Not as good as the hotter ones, but It could have just been my shooting that particular day, and I would be happy with this accuracy anyways. This was supposed to be a big-bore plinker/short range hunting gun anyways. Thanks.

PaulS · « **Reply #13 on:** June 20, 2006, 08:38:37 PM »

dubber123,
Acording to my Lyman manual you are overloading your gun.
If you are using 16 grains of Unique you are over by between 1.2 and 2.2 grains. You may not consider that vey much but it is about 12% too high a charge which would relate to up to 36% increase in pressure. Remember that this is a fast pistol powder and pressure builds fast.The lyman lists two lead bullets with Unique:
422 grain with a maximum charge at 14.8 gr
and a
498 grain with a maximum charge of 13.8 gr.

Lyman recommends a 5/8 inch square wad that is 1/4 inch thick made of polyester fiber with both of these loads. It should weigh .5 grain
There is a warning that these loads should only be used with modern solid brass head cases and only in modern firearms.

Yours is in between these loads and extrapolating a load (never recommended) you would have a maximum load for your 436 grain bullet at 14.4 grains - and since that is a maximum extrapolated load you should reduce it by 1.4 grains to start with. 13.0 grains to start and then work it up slowly - be sure to use the .5 grain wad over the powder - and do not exceed the 14.4 grain load - or if that load pops your gun open then reduce your load by 2% from where it stays closed. That will be your maximum safe load for that gun. Under no conditions should you load higher than the 14.4 load.

There ya go, reduce your charge, use a wad and you problems will be solved. As far as velocity goes you won't find data for any 6 1/2 inch barrels but Lyman says that in their 22 inch Sharps barrel they got 1211 fps with the light bullet and 1114 fps with the heavy bullet. I think you would be lucky to get 700 fps from a barrel that short. My 3 inch 45 colt only gets 550 fps with a factory load that is rated at 860 fps from a 7.5 inch barrel.
Most of these black powder cartridges were only rated at 15 to 17000 CUP for pressure. You may have your own ideas of what a "normal" pressure should be but you can't complain about a gun opening up when you overload it.

dubber123 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2006, 01:11:30 AM »

Pauls, Thanks for the reply, you are the first person to come up with actual load data for me. Even at the 17000c.u.p. that you believe is max, thats probably alot of thrust on a .650" rim. Do you think the wads are necessary? I can only imagine they want one in there to help with gas cutting of the bases? If I am not having that problem, I can do without them right? My loads for the last week or so have been 14 grs., which work fine. I understand your point about overloading, and I'm not being a wiseass, but is it just the case head size that you believe is the reason for my difficulties? The 45-70 rim is smaller, but it's still .608", and even Trapdoor loads run to 28000c.u.p. I would like to know, as I've been not so gently told they always work fine. In fact my brothers longer barreled version does with loads that utilize 500 grainers at my speeds without a hiccup. There is a big span between 17K and 28K, do you think my guns light weight and length might be part of my problems? Thanks for the real data. I look forward to your reply.

EdK · « **Reply #15 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:50:03 AM »

The 50-70 case head represents an increase of approximately 20.4% greater surface area over the 45-70. Therefore maximum acceptable chamber pressure in the 45-70 would have to be reduced approximately 16.9% in the 50-70 to result in the same case head thrust.

Any reason your barrel manufacturer did not supply the proper springs in the first place? Did they have any trouble test firing the barrel? Are you working with them on this?

dubber123 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2006, 04:07:02 AM »

EdK, now we are getting somewhere. Maybe between PaulS and you I can figure this out. First of all is surface area the percentage difference X 2? I only come up with a little over 10% larger in diameter, (45-70 versus 50-70), but notice your figure is just about double, hence the question. Even so, going by your numbers, and reducing the long accepted 28000 c.u.p. # for 45-70. I come up with 23,268, (16.9% reduction). PaulS says about 17000 is about all these old rounds were loaded to, and that my 16 gr. load is 36% too high. Well 17000+36%= 23,120. Well below the Trapdoor level. A couple of other things, my gun has never flown open, popped open or otherwise. I noticed some verticle stringing and saw oblong primer marks and figured it out. The spring that came with the gun felt weak, even compared to my well used .44 one. The shortened Encore spring I now use came from the manufacturer of the barrel, and was provided at no cost. This was said to be a common solution to weak lockup, and works great. Thanks guys!

EdK · « **Reply #17 on:** June 21, 2006, 05:52:17 PM »

First off I'm no ballistics guy or gunsmith but just another T/C hobbyist like 99% of the other GB forum members. Second, I can and do make mistakes - like for example the .515" case head diameter figure for the 45-70 I pulled off of a web source and used earlier today which is wrong: it is .505" (as PaulS said: "be wary of web sources"). With that said I should restate the 50-70 as having 25.2% greater case head area than the 45-70 or alternately that 50-70 chamber pressure would have to be reduced 20.1% (22,369PSI) in order to result in equal back thrust.

Quote from: dubber123

First of all is surface area the percentage difference X 2?

area=Pi*(case head diameter/2)^2

I have seen some use rim diameter, case head diameter (outside) as well as inside case head diameter in calculating thrust. I don't really know for sure what is correct although I have seen numerous sources claim the rim itself does not contribute any significant pressure upon the breech. For what it is worth I used case head O.D however if the case walls were at all similar in thickness the relative calculations using I.D. should also be very similar.

Quote from: dubber123

I only come up with a little over 10% larger in diameter

Yes true, however you must use the area - not the diameter - to figure the breech pressure.

Quote from: dubber123

Even so, going by your numbers, and reducing the long accepted 28000 c.u.p. # for 45-70.

28,000 PSI I think (however I do not have a personal copy of the SAAMI standards).

Quote from: dubber123

Well 17000+36%= 23,120. Well below the Trapdoor level.

Perhaps, however you do not have a Trapdoor in 45-70 but rather a T/C in 50-70.

dubber123: I'm not going to tell you you shouldn't be doing what you're trying to do. I will ask you to proceed a little more carefully and try to do some more homework first. For example: I honestly admitted I do not fully understand case head thrust in the T/C. Why not? Because I've never gone where you're going. I've thought about it such as in this thread however you can bet I would educate myself a little better before I went down that road. Have fun and be safe.

dubber123 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2006, 09:13:13 PM »

EdK, good to hear from you, I wasn't being a wiseass, your # seemed to be about 2X mine, and I couldn't remember the formula for area. My Hodgden # 27 lists 3 different load catagories, #1 (trapdoor mentioned), and says CUP. I have seen PSI in other books, but this is mine. You are correct, I don't have a trapdoor, but most consider the T/C, including the company itself, safe with this load level in 45-70. You are right, this isn't a 45-70, but the numbers I come up with, CUP/breech thrust #'s by the #'s given me put me below trapdoor levels. I just want people to consider that it may be something other than too high pressure causing the issue. My even lighter than 16 gr. loads stand a good chance of making my personal goal of 850 anyways, I just haven't chronoed yet. On a side note, I read elsewhere you wnat to shoot a .375 #1. I have one with a fixed 2.5 Leupold. I am only a little ways away in VT. Thanks for thinking about my problem, not just assuming my frame is stretching or some other hocum, it's not. Thanks again.

PaulS · « **Reply #19 on:** June 22, 2006, 01:18:26 AM »

Quote from: dubber123

Pauls, Thanks for the reply, you are the first person to come up with actual load data for me. Even at the 17000c.u.p. that you believe is max, thats probably alot of thrust on a .650" rim. Do you think the wads are necessary? I can only imagine they want one in there to help with gas cutting of the bases? If I am not having that problem, I can do without them right? My loads for the last week or so have been 14 grs., which work fine. I understand your point about overloading, and I'm not being a wiseass, but is it just the case head size that you believe is the reason for my difficulties? The 45-70 rim is smaller, but it's still .608", and even Trapdoor loads run to 28000c.u.p. I would like to know, as I've been not so gently told they always work fine. In fact my brothers longer barreled version does with loads that utilize 500 grainers at my speeds without a hiccup. There is a big span between 17K and 28K, do you think my guns light weight and length might be part of my problems? Thanks for the real data. I look forward to your reply.

dubber123,
The wads are in place to insure good ignition with a very small charge in a large case - yes, they are necessary. If you don't use them you will likely get soot covering your cases and the inside of your chamber. I don't have access to pressure and thrust force data - all I know is that the book states a maximum load for any one of several reasons. There is no separate load listing for the TC or Ruger guns so I would say that this cartridge has this as a maximum load for reasons of thrust and pressure. I also have no written pressure data on the cartridge - it may be producing considerably more than 17000 CUP - I have no clue. I looked in my listing of SAAMI standards and there is no listing for that caliber in my data. Anything I could say would only be a guess and I would tend to favor pressures similar to 45-70 Gov't models and I can't find data for Unique in that cartridge. I don't think that the weight or barrel length have much to do with your problem. Your barrel has less weight and so would have less reaction to inertial forces of recoil. It might respond to breach face pressures but it would have a tendancy to be pushed back into the breach face by the bullet travelling down the barrel too (to a much greater degree than the heavier barrels) which tend to keep the barrel locked up. It might be that Unique powder has a high enough peak pressure that it is actually very close to overloading the lock-up right from the start and you might get away from the problem by switching to one of the slower burning powders.
In all honesty I think that you can expect the kinds of problems that you were having anytime you exceed maximum loads.

You could try 18 to 24 grains of SR-4759, 22.3 to 28.5 of IMR-4198 or 27.5 to 31.5 of IMR-3031 which are the slower burning powders listed for the 498 grain bullet and would be safe with your lighter bullet. These loads will give you higher velocities than the Unique load and also require the wad.

by the way - you can buy the wad material in most any fabric store as 1/4 inch polyfill for quilting. To set the wad in place you will need to use a wood ram like a 3/8 inch wood dowel. Push the wad into the case (the corners will want to fold up - just let them) and then gently seat the wad with the dowel over the powder with very little pressure. Just tap it into place and then seat your bullet.

dubber123 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 22, 2006, 12:55:02 PM »

PaulS, again thanks for the reply. I think we could probably throw numbers around for all eternity. There just doesn't seem to be enough load/pressure data to give a concrete answer. When I chronographed these loads at 1000+, I was shocked. I was nervous that I wouldn't be able to break 800 when I ordered it. The 1000+ loads do seem suspiciously fast, and I backed them down immediately after. They were very consistant, only 12 fps. variation high to low. I asked about the weight, thinking inertia may affect a gun that recoils this quickly. I rember having an SP-101 marked "125 gr. bullet only". I quickly determined that all normal weights fit in the cylinder, but when the recoil reached a certain point, bullet pull was hard to avoid. This was the only Ruger marked in this way. It was the lightest, and inertia affected it more. I may never find out the real answer, but it's working well now, and I expect it will contiue to do so. Thank you for your patience and professionalism in this matter.

sawfish · « **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2006, 10:09:08 AM »

Some years back, JD Jones warned that extremely high pressures could unexpectedly result from the use of faster burning pistol powders in the larger cases. He was specifically referring to 2400 in the 45/70, but I would think that warning would apply even more so to Unique. My understanding was that it was an uncommon, but documented occurrence. Much like the detonation factor that can result from too light charges of H-110 and W-296.

I never personally experienced this in my 45/70 Contender with 2400, but I do not have to be run over by an 18 wheeler to know that it will hurt. Bowing to JDJ's expertise, I pulled and dumped the 2400 from all of my 45/70 loads, and no longer use that powder in that caliber. Sometimes, humility in reloading can be a good thing, and might keep all of your fingers in place.

Experimentation with new and different calibers can be fun, but it can also be dangerous. I suggest you contact one of the ballisticians at Alliant re: the safety of your loads. Good luck.

dubber123 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2006, 11:16:51 AM »

sawfish, I tried and basically didn't get anywhere with the Alliant guys, I tried Hodgden, and the only load tips they were willing to give was for Trailboss powder, which I had to order, and should be here tomorrow. There is a real lack of data in general for this cartridge, and NONE that could even be considered optimal for this short of a barrel. Given the info graciously supplied by forum members, I was either way over, or still in the upper end of Trapdoor pressures, depending on how you looked at it. The only Unique data I got wasn't pressure tested, so it could have been to full Trapdoor pressure, or just to the safe pressure that particular gun would handle. 1000+ seems suspiciously warm to me, and wasn't what I wanted anyways. With the short tube, I am pretty well stuck with fast powders. I just have to use them in moderation. I believe I am getting near my optimal load now, and plan some more chrono testing this weekend. Then when my new WFN mold comes in, I get to start all over. Thanks.

Dan Chamberlain · « **Reply #23 on:** June 29, 2006, 02:35:41 AM »

I have found 777 to be very accurate in my .45-70 and it shoots and cleans up like smokeless! No need for special lubes. Just use whatever lube you would use for smokeless. No need for wads other than maybe to protect the bullet base from heat. I use a thin fiber wad in my .45-70. I made a measure that would allow me to fill the case to a certain level, I hold the case against my vibrating tumbler for a few seconds to settle the powder and I load the bullet. This gives me about 1/16th inch of compaction. 3" at 100 yards! I haven't chronoed it. Stiff recoil with 395 grainers but not terrible. I do NOT use it with jacketed bullets.

Dan C

sawfish · « **Reply #24 on:** June 29, 2006, 05:49:21 AM »

dubber, My only other suggestions are to contact the Cast Bullet Association. They publish a magazine called the Fouling Shot, and many of the members experiment with offbeat and unusual calibers. You might also contact the ballisticians at Accurate Arms. Sounds like AA-5744 would be a good possibility for your cartridge.

Whatever you do, keep good records and notes on successful/unsuccessful loads. You can then write an article for Handloader, Sixgunner, ec., and maybe encourage a fellow shooter to give your cartridge a try. Good luck, and err on the side of caution.

sawfish · « **Reply #25 on:** June 29, 2006, 06:11:09 AM »

dubber, I have located some 50/70 Contender published loads for you. Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I will forward them to you. Regards.

Sawfish

Sorry about the duplication below. I was having some problems posting this reply, and I did not think that it had made it onto the thread.

HHI-7420 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 29, 2006, 06:32:02 AM »

Dubber, this will be my only post on this subject as I have no knowledge of either of the two cases: 50-70 or your modified one. EdK came close but not quite- what about internal case capacity. Your new case seems to be a rifle case(thicker walls?). Was your 50-70 chamber cut for the actual or new case? The 50-70 is most likely softer and thus will easily expand to fill the chamber, whereas the new case may be stiffer. Anyway measure the case capacity and see. Kind of like the 307 and 308 win. cases. Pat

sawfish · « **Reply #27 on:** June 29, 2006, 08:47:45 AM »

Dubber, I understood from your initial post that you had a 50/70 Contender, and the modified case you referred to in a later post was from a friend's gun that used 50/70 dies for loading. That was where you got the Unique loads. Right?

Nevertheless, I have located some published loads for a 50/70 Contender with SSK barrel. If you will send me a PM with your e-mail address, I will forward them to you. CAVEAT: JDJ generally chambers large calibers with some freebore so you should not use these as starting loads. If your barrel has little, or no feeebore, dangerous pressures could result. Regards.

Sawfish

dubber123 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 29, 2006, 11:14:37 AM »

ALOT of guys to answer! If I miss your question, please try again! Dan I have used 777 in my muzzleloaders and love it. I have not tried it in this cartridge, the smoke might be interesting! HHI-7420 and sawfish, my brass is regular 50-70 headstamped Starline brass. nothing modified. The Unique loads were from the Cast Bullet Assn. and were for a foreign cartridge that is basically identical to the 50-70. Sawfish, my barrel has a TON of freebore. I finally got my order of Trailboss powder, a 15 gr charge is about 1/16" from the base of the bullet, puts my 450's out at 868 fps, and the first string varied by 4 fps. I have never gotten this low of a variation. This load shoots in an inch at 50 yds., and is very clean. I would like to try the 777, and would like to get your loads Sawfish, but I'm embarassed to say I don't know how to do the PM thing. Not very good on the computer thing. Thanks guys, I enjoy interacting on oddball stuff like this!

sawfish · « **Reply #29 on:** June 29, 2006, 11:50:01 AM »

Just click on the tab below that says "PM".