Tactical Shooting in Silhouette Cheats??

[Dobermann]

I am pretty new to silhouette shooting and several shooters have mentioned tactical shooting ie shooting below your ability so that at competitions you can win your class. Is it allowed or are their rules against it?? How can it be stopped as I think it's very unfair.

Regards

Dobermann

[Bulletman]

It's called SANDBAGGING by most of us and no it's not allowed nor condoned by most of us. I've seen it once personally (during my second ever match).

Bulletman

[RamSlammer]

G'Day All
             Sandbaggers are the lowest form of life(they can't be called a competitor) in existence. They will take prizes away from shooters who are trying their best and who deserve the win. I've seen some cases that were so obvious but one thing you can't do is call someone a cheat. One case was a Sandbagger shooting one point below grade break two matches in a row at a big shoot so he had enough for a win but not be upgraded. They are also cheating themselves each time and I for one wouldn't want a undeserved trophy on my shelf.
Juddy

[maver]

 

[chunter]

Who really cares about sand baggers?

If a person feels they need to cheat to win then let them, and if the fellow shooters let it eat them up inside then that is their problem.

If a shooter is at the point where they are worried about what Joe Bloe in the corner is doing, then they have lost the point of what makes this sport fun. Then the whining starts.

Besides you can't really prove someone is sandbagging.  Look at the scores from some of the big matches. A master shooter can shoot a 22/40 and a A shooter can shoot a 34/40. Does that mean the A shooter was sandbagging?  Maybe, but then again maybe they had a really good day.

Do the awards really mean anything?  Are we only going to the match to win? I thought we were there for some fun and self progression.

What about shooters who lean against the bench when shooting or tuck their elbows into their belts. How about these wonderful shooting vests that zip up so tight that the shooter can't bend over, let alone get a three inch pipe through it.  

Don't get me wrong,  I think that healthy competition is awesome. It can help drive a shooter to shoot better and learn the game better, but when people want to whine about silly things it doesn't do anyone any good.  If a person is caught cheating (really cheating) then have the match director take care of it.

In the end, it is up to the shooter to ensure that the 'spirit of the law' is met. The last thing we need is a self-appointed lynch mob roaming the line trying to find 'tatical shooters'.   Besides isn't that what the tech officer is for? Right Ernie

[nomad]

Casey,

Much of what you say is valid but I can't agree with all of it:

1. The tech officer really has nothing to do with either sandbaggers or 'line' calls like tight vests. Those fall to the Stat office and the line officials, respectively. (For that matter, although I firmly believe that good match officers SHOULD rigorously enforce the rules, IMO unless competitors are prepared to step up and call a spade a spade when they see cheating, then they mostly deserve the match that they get!)

2. Sandbagging IS a problem that DOES need addressing at larger matches where National/Regional/State titles are on the line...or where valuable prizes are at stake.

That said, in my experience, the actual number of sandbaggers is pretty small and, if the match director is prepared to be hard-nosed when necessary, the practice drops off pretty dramatically. (Of course, ANYWHERE the match officials show right up front that they will firmly enforce the rules -- no matter who's toes get stepped on -- then the match always runs to the benefit of all the decent sportsmen and women on the line!)

At Winnsboro, where there are significant monetary prizes awarded, good record keeping has ferretted out a number of sandbagging attempts and those people have been stripped of awards and DQ'd. David runs a match where honesty is expected.

Now that PeEll records are computerized, I'd expect the same to happen there. (In the past, the 'Nice-Guy' attitude at that match was exploited.)

In the long run, although I agree that we don't want a 'lynch-mob', a healthy dose of peer pressure is NOT a bad thing... (Silhouette is a fairly open game where cheating is pretty visible. When anyone 'gets away with' something, it's generally known -- just not followed up on. We need to leave the door open for honest errors and occasional rule disagreements or misinterpretations but we don't want that door so open that cheaters can use it to their advantage!)

I DO care about sandbaggers (and any other cheaters) because they cheapen the quality of the game and because I dislike thieves.  A cheater is really just another kind of thief...

[CB]

I like Hunter's thinking on the matter. Don't let others distract you from playing your game. Personnaly when I twist back and over and feel my hips touch the bench I find it a distraction as I know I've not set up far enough back and I'll have to reset before the next shot, NPA is to be refound, mind is off it's focus, etc. etc.
 As far as tight jackets! Once saw a fellow in heavy leather, zipped up tight with sweat shirt underneath at Phoenix, 110*!!! My thoughts,,,go for it dude!!
 I think in any endeaver there will be some who think they can shortcut the process by "outsmarting" the competition, they seldom get very high or far and make beating them all the more fun.
Carroll

[Graybeard]

Sandbagging is the correct name but I don't think it's technically against the written rules of the game. Still most all shooters frown on it. The most blatant case of it I ever saw was in skeet shooting. A local who was a really fine skeet shooter got classed in "C" class shooting small local matches. He then refused pretty much to shoot again in competition until the World Championship. He didn't wanna miss intentionally so just didn't shoot much in competition but did in a few and did on those occasions miss intentionally. Most tho he just practiced and practiced hard and regularly. We all knew his ability level and it was easily Double A.

At the World Championship he found that C Class was home to LOTs of sandbaggers. He brought home no medals that year in that class. I think it took higher scores and longer strings in the shootoffs to win it than to win AA. He got his just deserts and as far as I know never shot competition again. Some times what goes around comes around.

I also watched it and was personally affected by it in metallic silhouette competition when my cousin's son who was a bit older and at the time a bit better shot than my middle son did it. He'd always wait for my son to shoot and then beat him by one target to stay in same class. Sure made me mad but there was little I could do about it other than complain to no avail.

In the end he proved to be dishonest in far more ways than that. He got into drugs deeply and has stolen from his dad so many times it's beyond count. He has proved to be a major disappointment to his father. I feel that teaching him to cheat early in life sure didn't help him grow up to be the man his dad would have liked.

[Dobermann]

I agree that we should not let sandbaggers effect us but twice I have lost out on a team place in my class due to a tactical shooter who has admitted tactical shooting but says that their is no rule against it (or it can't be proven) so it's not cheating it's "tactical".
I will just train harder and eventually I hope will win but for some people starting out in our sport when they see it happening to them they give up.
Sorry to be a whinge but if it's just ignored they get away with it!

Regard

Dobermann

[ajj]

Firing extra shots, altering records, leaning against the bench...these are all things that can be spotted and punished, but they're not "sandbagging." There's nothing to be done about the guy who intentionally misses a shot so we might as well forget about him, except to say that it's just about the most pathetic behaviour anyone could imagine. How could you look in the mirror?

[eroyd]

Some sandbaggers are blatantly obvious. I don't get the mentallity, really the only award that matters is the possibly unobtainable overall match winner, otherwise for me the only goal is to improve on my previous best score, during a big match. How can "sandbaggers" ever hope to get better?

[IMshooter]

As a person who has been accused of sandbagging, I wish to share my experience.  For many years I have been in smallbore metalic silhouette AA class.  And often my score would be at the top of AA class and I would win it.  I've never missed a shot on purpose.  Maybe if I had put more money into my equipment (most of it humble and inexpensive) and had the time and a place to practice I could have advanced. 

But last year a match director decided I was a sandbagger and he DQ'ed me for using .22 hollow points (Winchester Power Points).  My fellow competitors, to their credit, pointed out to him that the rule book does not forbid the use of hollow points.  So then the match director tried to DQ me for using high velocity ammunition.  Again my fellow competitors stood up for me and told him the rule book only forbid the use of hyper velocity ammo such as stingers.  The match director then stood behind me everytime I was firing for score and threatened to DQ me if any of the targets broke.  I barely shot my class.

That was a year ago and I still have not cleaned my rifle.  Shooting metallic silhouette just doesn't interest me anymore.

[GeoNLR]

As a person who has been accused of sandbagging, I wish to share my experience.  For many years I have been in smallbore metalic silhouette AA class.  And often my score would be at the top of AA class and I would win it.  I've never missed a shot on purpose.  Maybe if I had put more money into my equipment (most of it humble and inexpensive) and had the time and a place to practice I could have advanced. 

But last year a match director decided I was a sandbagger and he DQ'ed me for using .22 hollow points (Winchester Power Points).  My fellow competitors, to their credit, pointed out to him that the rule book does not forbid the use of hollow points.  So then the match director tried to DQ me for using high velocity ammunition.  Again my fellow competitors stood up for me and told him the rule book only forbid the use of hyper velocity ammo such as stingers.  The match director then stood behind me everytime I was firing for score and threatened to DQ me if any of the targets broke.  I barely shot my class.

That was a year ago and I still have not cleaned my rifle.  Shooting metallic silhouette just doesn't interest me anymore.

Mark,

I'm sorry to hear about that... BUT, the rules also mention target damage. At our local range we do not allow folks to shoot the high velocity rounds (granted we would NEVER turn away a youth or new shooters), we would gladly offer you to shoot with us though. I would think a person shooting in the top of AA would have seen target damage, no matter the price of the rifle. Heck, we break enoungh Chickens and rams horns with standard velocity....LOL

Schafer recently just strengthened his target design to incorporate "braces" on the back of the animals. I don't think he would have changed if he was not having to replace too many of the targets he warrany for life.

High velocity ammo does damage the targets more than standard velocity. It sounds like your match director knew this but didn't quite relay it in a manner consistant with the rest of the Silhouette community. Think about joining the rest of us again.

Chicken

[nanaimoman]

G'Day All
             Sandbaggers are the lowest form of life

Wow I thought this was a fun sport, time maybe to relax and just concentrate on your own shooting.

[Gunpacker]

  I agree that sandbaggers are pathetic. Trophies and awards we win are for our own memories only unless they are from the highest class possible. Highest class possible trophies  mean "the best". Lower class trophies can only mean "the best we could do" and be meaningful. Would I be proud of a sharpshooter trophy when I shot my best ever match? You bet I would. Would I be proud of a sharpshooter match if I only tried to win by one point to keep average low and steal the trophy?. Not me.
I might see someone sandbagging if lots of money were involved. That would at least make some sense, although it would be dishonest.
Heck, to me shooting is only fun when we do our best, and that is the only way we can advance in class. If a man told me that he was really able to shoot High Master class but shot lower for trophies, I would call him a liar. The only way to shoot the best class is to earn it by doing it, and that is easier said than done. It is difficult for many to shoot top class scores even when they have truly earned the class. Only the very top can shoot the higest class easily, and they are not satisfied with that, wanting to shoot a perfect score.
That's what competiition is about. Anything else is not competition.
Most of us think of attaining a higher class as the ultimate accomplishment in whatever class we are in.