Author Topic: Would we be better off?  (Read 2040 times)

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Offline BeanMan

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Would we be better off?
« on: June 15, 2006, 06:43:13 PM »
I haven't ventured into this forum much and I've grown up in Colorado so I don't  really call myself a Yankee.   We don't have much of the  North vs. South stuff here so I have a question.   Would we (we being America or the United States) be better off as two nations or as the one that exists now if the confederacy had succeded?

Thanks,

BeanMan

Offline southernpride

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2006, 04:02:44 PM »
In my opinion we would be better off as two.  A nation started out to escape an injustice system, was beaten into submission.  "Reconstructed" and then we were kind of duct taped together.  I still major differences in culture.  In Arkansas, a former Confederate state, a Confederate flag is a sign of their culture.  In Kansas it is frowned upon.

Offline wncchester

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2006, 03:58:08 PM »
It is entirely possible that both the North and the South would be much better off if the war of 1861-65 had not been pursued.  Few historians even mention, much less really examine, the cost in human lives that war cost both sides.  And that leaves out the total costs of the almost total destruction of the South's economy, a destruction that took at least 100 years for the South to recover. 

For sure the South would have been a far stronger nation, and that would have been soon free of slavery too.  Slaves in large numbers were needed because of the labor intensive operations of large plantations, the source of income for that agreculteral South.  Slaves were expensive to own and maintain, a barely cost effective work force at best but there simply were no excess "laborers" in the South to be hired at the pay the land owners could afford to pay.  But, when effective farm machinery from the Industrial Revolution became available the need, and therefore the use, of slaves would have rapidly vanished.  Then slaves would have been freed by economic neccessity.  Freed slaves would then not have been cast aside as worthless humanity in a destroyed region, as was the case at the end of the great conflict.  Thus, the slaves themselves would have benefited greatly by a staged freedom into a sound economy that could have absorbed them.

For whatever reason, the thrist for personal freedom that was first seen in Mass. has long vanished from the northeast.  Northerners of today seek cradle to grave security and physical comfort and are willing to surrrender great chunks of personal freedom to attain it. 

Witness, the North is the strong hold of group-think political liberalism.  They  show a desire for massive government regulation and control of personal actions, like gun control and control of private property,  They support ever increasing governmental services to reduce the need for personal responsiblity.  They have been shown themselves to be willing to pay high taxes for the subjugation big government brings.  The Northern economy has long been the home of large corporations, large unions and eletist, powerful political families.  They oppose "right to work" laws for the protection of big unions.  They have a minimal concern for small businesses and personal responsibility.  They support large government payouts for charitable causes but have the lowest percentage of such personal contributions in the nation.    They vote for the greatest amount of personal property restrictions by city zoning laws and home-owner associations.  Etc.

Southerners have, at last, developed a diverse industrial base that is strong an growing while many of those in the North are closed or declining.  This has led many Northerners to migrate to the South in the recent past.  Here, they seem determined to force on us the blessings they used to destroy the quality of life their home states.  In much of the South northern accents now greatly outnumber  southern drawls.  Previous generations of southern politicians have been replaced with liberal minded northern types, so expanding taxes and regulation and failing schools - all for the good of the people of course - are growing here by leaps and bounds.

So, for sure, at least the South would be much better off without the damage of that war.  And if we were allowed to regulate our borders today the invaders from both north and south could be limited.  But, as everyone who has met a loud-mouthed liberal northerner (is that a redundant term?) can confirm, masses of Yankees can't be controlled and they also forbid us to seriously work to control our borders further south. 

Such is war.  In my humble opinion.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline 22rimfan

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 07:18:00 PM »
I don't believe that we would have been better off as two nations.  If the South had won, we would have still been under a financial strain from paying for the war, recovering our losses in manpower, and restoring the land after the devastation of war.  Also the agrarian South would have relied upon the industrial North or Foreign Trade to supply us/them with machines to work the land, more than likely at high prices.  Also the economy was so scattered with each bank printing its own money, which would have also driven the economy down.  If the South could have built an industrial base to supply itself with farming machines and consolidated its money system it might have survived and even flourished, but first it would have had to undergo its own form of Reconstruction.  I believe that the South at some point after gaining independence would have freed the slaves as a cost-effective measure.  Even if it the South did win, I believe that it would have rejoined the Union at some point or another due to economic necessity.  But this is just my idea.  True I would love it if the South would have won, but there would still be the cultural division that lingers to this day.  Also I believe that if the South had won, the government would not be as consolidated and strong as it is today.  But this is just my own thoughts and observations...
Aaron
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Offline nabob

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2006, 10:28:30 AM »
Most people can't get past their own animosities to give a reasonably objective answer.

Besides, for every rosy picture painted by a Reb who still fighting for "the cause" and therefore thinks Yankees are big-mouthed liberals who forced the South to suffer an injustice, there is a rosy picture to be painted by a Yankee who still views the South as populated by bigoted, racist, inbred rednecks.

Do you think an answer by someone going by the name "southernpride" is going to be unbiased? Or that wncchester, who thinks that Northerners are all a bunch of group-thinking stingy socialist elitists? Do you expect anything he is able to put aside his animosity and give an answer based on an attempt at objectively considering the question?

It isn't going to happen. What you are going to get is yet one more thread where people can vent their rage about a conflict that ended long ago but is kept living in the hearts of those who have nothing but their own hate to keep them going. Pretty soon someone will post a "danged right I'm mad and this is why!" and others will chime in on a similar note. The chest-thumping about how much Southerners love freedom, apple pie and motherhood will start along some requisite character assassination of Northerners. Heck, wncchester has already given us the pitch. All that follows now is to sing the same old tune.

Offline wncchester

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2006, 04:55:13 PM »
Nabob, once again I'm puzzled by your almost bitter  response to some personal views. 

I stated my opinions and gave reasons for them.  I know that blanket statements cannot be true for all people but the essential truth of blanket statements can be basically true.  I believe my words are basically true.  For instance, I understand from my Boston friends that perhaps a third of Mass. residents tend to be conservatives but that leaves them  voted down by two to one so that once great state continues to elect both Kerry and Kennedy because the conservatives are politically powerless as a group  (This is a supporting reason for my previous statements; that’s the way it’s done.).  Okay, so that's democracy but it was the majority northern view I addressed, it was not given to apply to 100% of all northerners for all time and space.

Thus, I said what I believe and southernpride also gave his personal opinion, both written without personal animosity or anger.  But you respond by putting your words in our mouths and that ain’t sanitary.  My beliefs are based on what I see and read.  I  live in the company of your compatriots each day; some are nice people but many more are not.  Is it your position that I don't see that or do you just object that I should express such (northern) politically incorrect ideas and wish I would try harder to live quietly as a yankee plantation slave? 

At this point, it appears your method of  "debate" is to personally attack dissidents from your elitist view without bothering to say, objectively, where or how we have factually erred.  Or do you consider that venting personal animosity IS an intellectually sufficient response without need for factual, or even opinionated, rebuttal of specific statements?  If so, that’s an example of why I hold some of the beliefs  I stated above.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline nabob

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2006, 10:03:02 AM »
You make unsubstantiated generalizations about Northerners and object when I call you on them? OK, how's this: show some evidence that what you say is factually correct. Let's see some objective evidence that supports your assertion that Northerners are 1) elitist 2) loud-mouthed 3) liberal 4) seek cradle to grave security 5) are willing to give up personal freedoms to do so 6) engage in group think liberalism 7) support big government 8) in order to decrease personal responsibility 9) oppose right to work laws 10) in order to protect unions 11) have lower personal charitable giving rates 12) are responsible for rising taxes in the South as well as 13) failing schools.

You've stated all this as fact, right? Prove it. Let's see some objective factual analysis that shows that Northerners are elitists, for example. If you are going to assert this as fact, then let's see your evidence. Otherwise, you are just dressing up yet another screed by a Southerner against Northerners on this forum as being "factual" when all it is, is exactly what you are accusing me of: venting personal animosity. Pot, thou art as black as the kettle you describe.

Offline nabob

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2006, 10:16:35 AM »
Here is the underlying basis of my objection to posts such as yours:

They are nothing but regional hatreds being vented in public.

Have a look at the post by El Confederado at the top of this forum. In it, he says this:

From this day forth, topics will be about the war or connected to the war. Topics will be of atleast a semi civil nature and not allowed to drag into name calling or any of this " you should feel guilty for what your ancestors did " garbage. I hope y'all understand why and for who I am forced to do these things and in the end I feel it will make things better for all.

Your post, wncchester, is not about the war, it is about how much you don't like Northerners. Sure, you can make some sort of a fig leaf argument about how it is really about the war but we both know that you've used this question to vent your own personal animosity about Northerners. "Northerners are this, Northerners are that" - that isn't about the war, that's about Northerners.

I lived in the South as a child in the early 60's. Saw a lot of hatred about Northerners, people still licking wounds they personally never suffered but were of the nature of wounded gigantic pride. I moved North and found a lot of hatred about Southerners, about how they are inbred racist Neanderthals, yadda yadda yadda. Same tune, different part of the country. I went to school up North and as the lone conservative at an Ivy League school, saw so much condescension and animosity towards people (like me) from the right end of the political spectrum. I come here and I hear the same thing about people who inhabit the left side of the political spectrum.

Everyone seems to really enjoy thinking ugly things about other people. So when I see it in a post here, such as how we love to despise Muslims or Northerners, I say something. In each of the places I mentioned, people who thought the same way tended to stick together and mutually reinforced their own prejudices. The same thing happens here on this forum and on this board. To my own shame, I kept silent when people disparaged other groups with the sort of blanket condemnations you posted. I don't do that anymore.

Offline Powell

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2006, 02:03:05 PM »
I think it is time to "get over it."  We are one nation with a lot of problems.  They are ours and they are now.  We need to work on them and pull together.  Put the old aside and look to see who our real enemies are.

Offline wncchester

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 01:17:45 PM »
Some how I get the feeling that it would be pointless to illustrate things further.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline nabob

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 01:59:31 PM »
Actually, your first post was a wonderful illustration of the point that regional animosities drive these discussions, so I agree. Further illustration would be redundant.

Offline 6Shooter

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 05:12:04 AM »
Yes.

Offline Dee

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 01:19:26 PM »
Yes, we would.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dee

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2007, 03:57:06 PM »
I think it is time to "get over it."  We are one nation with a lot of problems.  They are ours and they are now.  We need to work on them and pull together.  Put the old aside and look to see who our real enemies are.

I agree. They are all in Washington D.C. Let's try and raise the moral IQ of the south by seceding from the northern states just one more time. They, can continue letting DC be their capital, we'll even let'em keep our senators and congressmen. We'll start over with a clean slate, minus the 9.5 trillion dollar goverment debt, states rights restored, and our captitol in aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh San Antonio, Texas! We can call it WASHINGTON ON THE BRAZOS. Instead of a white house, we'll use the Alamo. We'll restore Beauragards's battle flag (the stars and bars) as our national flag, Dixie as the national anthum (it's a prettier song anyway). Gray will be the color of the army, and the national mascot with be a panther instead of a bird. We'll have term limits for all elected officals, unions will be prohibited from entering the country, english will be required, children will be taught history as it actually happened, will have their butts busted when they mis-behave, traitors shot, and anyone mentioning political correctness, afirmative action, and hate speech will be hanged publicly. Every able bodied man will serve 2 years minimum in the military, and will take their weapons home when mustered out of said army. An armed society, truly is a polite society. Anyone moving to the south (northerners prohiibited), WILL swear alliegence to the south, and WILL speak english. There will be not white confederates, no african ones, no mexican ones, no indian ones ect. We'll all just be confederates! AAHHHHHHHH. YES. Paridise. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2007, 05:57:01 PM »
  I for one if you really think about it am really happy that EVERYTHING that happened in the past , happened.

  While I'm not sure what we have in DC is really a good thing. ( I lean repub. but that is only cuz they are closer to my beliefs) I'm not hapy with whats going on now.

   But what I was sayin before. Just think about it. If in the past EVERYONE that was killed in a war/famine/murder/ moved because of something/ect. ect..

  You wouldn't be here. It would've took only one of your ancestors to be gained or lost and you wouldn't be here.

 So I am saying definiyly NO because ALOT of WE wouldn't be here to debate this.
  Am I thinking to deep or what?

  Am I the only one in this world that believes that. I'm really glad history is as it is?

I think history is perfect in MY perspective.
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Dee

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2007, 05:51:46 AM »
History's track depends on whom you talk to. The historical truth would be of more benefit. Since the civil war and the end of State's Rights, Washington politicians have catered to big money from corporation lobbists and the little man has no say in the matter. How many millions does it take to run for president now? I heard but forgot. I believe states rights restored and term limits are the only hope to slow the downward spiral, but that is not going to happen. Some people want to disband the electorial college also. If that happend the north would totally control national elections. A Republic has been replaced by a democracy (mob rule).
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Sarge

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2007, 01:17:14 PM »
Dee,
  You speak the truth in both of your posts.

Offline Dee

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 03:05:52 PM »
Billy after considering your post, and contemplating it's depth, I would like to assure you that, had everything that HAS HAPPENED, since the white man arrived, NOT HAPPENED. I would still be here. You see, I am Cherokee. And after delving into the matter perhaps deeper than you. I have determined, that had not the whites, blacks, ILLEGAL ALIENS, I mean hispanic emigrants, never came to America, perhaps, I might not be being taxed out the wa-zoo, slipping down the class scale, listening to lyin-ass lawyers in Washington, and seeing my country going to hell in a Wal-Mart sack.
I might instead be, deer huntin when and where I pleased, drinkin clean water, not know what smog was, nor care about the price of gasoline (possibly even know what it was) or sitting in front of the computer smarten off to you, cause I have no life. I mean it could have happened that way. Couldn't it? :D
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline billy_56081

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2007, 03:20:04 PM »
But are you 100% cherokee?  Actually my thinking like that came from an old army buddy from the Pine Ridge resevation in South Dakato. He said I'm damn glad the white man came. I'm part French. We have discussed things like this alot.

I agree with the rest of the things you said though. I'm paying lottsataxes and up here in the Peoples Republic of  Minnesota we are overrun by illegals too.  ;)
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Dee

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Re: Would we be better off?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2007, 03:50:10 PM »
Naw, I was just yankin your chain. My Dad was a full blood, and my Mother is just a quarter. I'm just bored. The weather down here stinks right now and the hogs are beded up in the timber. A friend of mine killed a big boar today, and there were 28 in the bunch countin the shoats. This one was gray. Never seen a gray one before. His head was real long, and his hair was about 4" long in places. Had a mean set of cutters too. He was ugly.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett