Author Topic: Muzzle Breaks?  (Read 1918 times)

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Offline younghunter12

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Muzzle Breaks?
« on: June 16, 2006, 04:26:00 PM »
Hi. I'm looking for a elk gun for the upcoming season. I've looked into all reasonable calibers thourouly. Right now I'm leaning toward the .300 win mag. As said in my screen name I'm young. I'm 12 yrs old as said in my screen name. I have shot a 7.62x54r, 8mm mauser, 30-06 with 180 grs, and a 7mm Rem mag with 160 grs.

I was thinking that I'd get the 300 wm and put a muzzle break. That way when I get older I can take a muzzle brake off and I have myself a great caliber for big game.

The problem is that I don't have experience with muzzle breaks. I am pretty confident that I can take the recoil of a light 300 wm load. But for elk I was hoping for 180grs instead of a 150 gr bullet. My question is how much recoil does a mb take off? Thanks in advance. Alec.

Offline Todd1700

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2006, 07:11:37 AM »
I can't tell you and exact percentage of recoil reduction but they do cut it down considerably. I doubt a 300 mag with 180 grain bullets would kick more than a mild 30-06 load with 150 grain bullets.

HOWEVER, (and this is important) muzzle brakes dramatically increase the noise level of a rifle blast to a very dangerous level. Even one shot with some of them without adequate hearing protection can cause permanent damage to your hearing. If you ultimately decide to go this route do not shoot a rifle (especially a large caliber magnum) with a ported barrel unless you wear proper hearing protection. Some are so loud that even ear muffs are inadequate as most muffs only reduce sound by 25 decibles or so.

Also consider this; much of what makes some people flinch when shooting a rifle is not so much the recoil but the muzzle blast, which as I have stated will be greatly increased with a muzzle break.

Lastly if you are looking for a good elk gun and have already shot without problems a 30-06 with 180gr bullets and a 7mm mag with 160gr bullets then you have already shot two excellent elk killing combinations. Why would you need a 300 WM? It has been my experience that the 300 wm doesn't really outshine the two calibers already mentioned until you get well past 300 yards. Which (unless you are an exceptional shot for a 12 year old) is farther than you would be shooting anyway.

Not trying to sound preachy or condescending just giving you some food for thought.

Offline Sourdough

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2006, 09:13:58 AM »
First of all it depends on which brake you get.  Brakes reduce recoil from 25% all the way to 98%.  Depending on what style you get.  

Second:  The 300WM in my openion is a highly overrated gun.  I think of it as a souped up 30-06.  Personally I would lean to the 30-06 anyway instead of the 300.  Since you have shot the 30-06 you are already set in that department, and you don't need a brake.  A brake is not good on a hunting gun for the simple reason that you have to stop and put on your hearing protection before each shot.  You don't normally walk around with it on.  My neighbor used a gun with a brake, when Moose hunting a Bull jumped up in front of him.  In the excitement Russ aimed and fired without putting on his hearing protection first.  Now Russ wears hearing aids, he has a perminate hearing loss, just from one shot.  So there is a place for brakes, but not on hunting rifles.

Third:  The 30-06 is totally adequate for anything in North America.  I carry one most of the year here in Alaska.  The 30-06 is the standard all others are judged by.  The 30-06 is totally proven for game such as Elk.  Some people consider it over kill for Deer, not me and most of the people I know.  If you are going to be a one gun person you can't go wrong with the 30-06.  Bullets range from 100 to 250 grains.  For Elk I would use either a 165gr or 180gr bullet.  Something else, most people try for the heart shot, and thats a good thing, if you are close and the animal is standing still.  I shoot the shoulder shot, dead center of the shoulder.  Object is to knock the animal down, so he can't get away.  Also if you are a little off on your range estimation no big deal.  Aiming at the denter of the shoulder, if you are off by four inches, it's still a good shot.  Four inches high you still brake the shoulder, and possiably the top of the lungs.  Four inches low you get the upper leg or the lungs and heart.  Four inches to the front you still get the front of the shoulder blade, and the lungs.  Four inches back you get the back of the lungs, but here you run the chance of getting the stomach also.  (a bit messy but not a big deal)  People will scream about the loss of meat, on a deer I can see that, but on an Elk what's a couple pounds of meat in a couple of hundred?(clean the hemmorage off and most can be ground into burger anyway)  That way you are sure of the animal going down.  Once the shoulder is broke I've never had an animal get up.

This is my openion on the subject.  Don't take it as the only way to do things, it's just my way.  Everyone has differant ways of doing things that work for them.  Good luck on the Elk hunt, and like Rambo said "Aim small shoot small".
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Offline Demonical

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 11:11:46 AM »
Pretty hard to say it any better then what Sourdough or Todd1700 said.

What I will add is it is possible to install a muzzlebrake that can be used on the range and then removed and replaced with a screw on cap. My moose hunting partner has a .338WM and has this on his M70.

But IMHO the .30-06 is what you should be looking at.

Offline glshop20

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2006, 05:01:37 AM »
Muzzle brakes do a good job but you will make lots of enemies at the range.(muzzle blast and noise)  A good recoil pad like a Pachmayr decellorator or an air cushion type(the company escapes me, try midway shooting supplies)  might be a good alternative.  Like mentioned above you might just drop down a notch on the power and pratice for consistent shot placement.  Shot placement and knowing your limitations are very important.

Offline Slamfire

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 07:31:05 PM »
If you can't handle the recoil with the normal stock, get a kick-eze. limb saver or decellerator recoil pad. They reduce the felt recoil a lot. As others have mentioned all the recoil reduction of a muzzlebrake is gained through an increase in muzzle blast or noise. Like the others I don't think you need the .300 mags, but it is your choice. One thing for sure a more powerful rifle doesn't make a misplaced or failed bullet kill any better.  :D
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Offline roper

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 09:45:15 PM »
Gun club I belong too has alot of older shooters/hunters and we have acouple gunsmiths in town who make their own type muzzle brakes so MB are pretty common at our range.  I shoot next to them alot and we have an established firing line so not a problem unless it's a 375 or larger.
To be honest I use a mag rifle for all my elk hunting as I hunt some fairly open country and may get a long shot.  Got a buddy who hunts with a 270 never gets a shot over 200yds.  I took my first elk with a 160gr bullet and 7 mag then switched over to 30 cal mags mainly use a 165 gr bullet and the last four elk I've taken have been with a 180gr bullet.  To me the only different between the 30-06 and 300mag is cost of powder and velocity.
MB in a young shooter is wrong get a caliber you can handle.  Might consider a recoil reducer in the stock.  We outfited my friends grandson with a youth model 7-08.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2006, 11:09:48 AM »
younghunter12 –

Do yourself a favor and skip the muzzle break.  In over 20 years of hunting elk with a 7mm Mag and 160g bullets I have never taken a shot that I couldnÂ’t have taken just as successfully with a .308 Win or a .270 Win.  At my range if you shoot a rifle with a muzzle break or B.O.S.S. you must first notify everyone on the range – and if anyone objects you donÂ’t get to shoot.  How much fun is that?

I recommend double hearing protection at the range – plugs and muffs.  Maybe thatÂ’s because at 55 my hearing is considerably less than it would be if I had done so all my shooting life.  As a youngster I didnÂ’t appreciate the damage shooting can do.  In the field the breaks are more likely to cause damage, especially if you make the mistake of not wearing protection and then taking a shot while standing close to an object that will reflect the noise back to you (like big rocks or a steel hillside).  I made that mistake one day with my .357 Mag, shooting horizontally along a 30 degree slope.  The result was painful with short term hearing loss of 60% or more and certain long term damage.

Get a 300 Win if you like and shoot 165-168g bullets.  They will take down anything you want at any range you should be shooting and wonÂ’t beat you up.  So will 150Â’s for that matter.  IÂ’d choose Partition or other premium bullets, regardless.
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Offline roper

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2006, 03:22:06 PM »
Quote from: Coyote Hunter
younghunter12 –

Do yourself a favor and skip the muzzle break.  In over 20 years of hunting elk with a 7mm Mag and 160g bullets I have never taken a shot that I couldnÂ’t have taken just as successfully with a .308 Win or a .270 Win.  At my range if you shoot a rifle with a muzzle break or B.O.S.S. you must first notify everyone on the range – and if anyone objects you donÂ’t get to shoot.  How much fun is that?

I recommend double hearing protection at the range – plugs and muffs.  Maybe thatÂ’s because at 55 my hearing is considerably less than it would be if I had done so all my shooting life.  As a youngster I didnÂ’t appreciate the damage shooting can do.  In the field the breaks are more likely to cause damage, especially if you make the mistake of not wearing protection and then taking a shot while standing close to an object that will reflect the noise back to you (like big rocks or a steel hillside).  I made that mistake one day with my .357 Mag, shooting horizontally along a 30 degree slope.  The result was painful with short term hearing loss of 60% or more and certain long term damage.

Get a 300 Win if you like and shoot 165-168g bullets.  They will take down anything you want at any range you should be shooting and wonÂ’t beat you up.  So will 150Â’s for that matter.  IÂ’d choose Partition or other premium bullets, regardless.
  I e-mailed the presidet of the range that CH shoots and passed that information on to 24hr Campfire site after CH claims of the restriction on the use of a MB.  The president of Ben Lomond told me there was no restriction on the use of muzzle breaks and he shoot a rifle with one but CH said the president of the club didn't know what he was talking about.  Just for the fun of it I'm applying for a membership in that range since it's not too far from my place.   I'll post what happens when I take a muzzle brake rifle out to that range.

Offline azmike

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2006, 03:50:12 AM »
Another poster advising against the muzzle brake here.  

Also, I agree with prior posters that the 300WM is overrated.  IMO not that much more powerful than the 7mm mags, but with more blast and recoil.  If you really wanted a step up from Remingtons Big 7, a .338 bore (either -06 or magnum) would be a better choice.  

That said, the 7mm with 160 or 175 grain bullets is an outstanding elk caliber, and since you have experience with it already, you know that the recoil is manageable.

Good luck in your decision, and enjoy the process.

Offline nomosendero

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 08:25:57 AM »
A 300WM with a 200 Gr. bullet @ 3,050FPS is a WHOLE lot more gun than a 7mmMag. with any load. It is more accurate to compare a 7mag with a
30-06 as far as killing power is concerned. I was a devout 7mm Mag. fan for about 12 years & they will sure kill an Elk, but that does NOT make it the equal of the 300, which it is not.

I can understand the idea of using the 7mmMag for most big game & the
338WM for the bigger stuff, it will work just fine & there is nothing wrong
with that approach. This was my own view & I modified my position when I saw what a fine long range round the 300 is. Now I would rather use the 300 & a .375 for the big Bears or African hunting if I ever get to go. I am however looking at a big 338, probably the 338 Edge or 338 Allen Mag, but it will be a special purpose gun, quite heavy & not used much. A 338WM just won't give me anything I don't have taken care of anyway.
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Offline sniperVLS

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2006, 08:49:26 AM »
http://www.jprifles.com/

Click on "RIFLES" to the left and then click on "Rem 700"

When I get the new Sendero in .300RUM, I'm sending it off to them.

Also, check out the videos(Online Demos) at the bottom left. Watch the recoil of the Rem 700 Sendero .300winmag, err I mean the lack of recoil.

To each their own, but the cost will be worth it if they remove the unpredictability problem of the 1st shot thru a cold barrel with the whole cryo treatment. People who have sent theirs in swear by it, maybe I should try it with another rifle incase I don't like it? I'd hate to find out its not so great and use a Sendero as a test subject....

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 03:39:43 AM »
Quote from: roper
  I e-mailed the presidet of the range that CH shoots and passed that information on to 24hr Campfire site after CH claims of the restriction on the use of a MB.  The president of Ben Lomond told me there was no restriction on the use of muzzle breaks and he shoot a rifle with one but CH said the president of the club didn't know what he was talking about.  Just for the fun of it I'm applying for a membership in that range since it's not too far from my place.   I'll post what happens when I take a muzzle brake rifle out to that range.


roper –

No need to join unless you want to – IÂ’ll be very happy to take you out there and show you the rules posted on the building at the covered 100-yard range.  I re-read them again a few days ago.  What I said was the President didnÂ’t put a lot of thought into his answer to you.  I stand by that statement.

No, there is no prohibition per se against firearms with muzzle breaks.  But there is a rule regarding their use.  How Bill or you can interpret posted rules regulating the use of  such firearms as "no restriction" is beyond me.

This is not word-for-word, but the gist of the rules is this – if you are shooting a firearm with a break, B.O.S.S. or .50 BMG, you must notify everyone on the firing line.  As I have stated before, anyone on the line can call a cease-fire at any time and for any reason.  If someone objects to your firearm a cease fire can – AND ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION HAS – been called due to muzzle breaks.  As I have also stated on the 24hourcampfire site, this is exactly how the rule was intended to work, as stated in the club newspaper at the time the notification rule was implemented – IF SOMEONE OBJECTS, YOU DONÂ’T SHOOT.

By the way, I DO recommend you join – itÂ’s a great place.  Around 500 members and another gentleman and I had the 200-300 yard range to ourselves all yesterday afternoon - not an uncommon situation.  We were shooting clay pigeons at 300 yards with the bolt guns and steel at 300 with my Marlin .30-30 and others.  The other gentleman there was shooting semi-autoÂ’s, a .223 AR-style and a Beretta bullpup 9mm carbine. The .223 had a break on it – not only did I not object, I put a couple mags worth down range in exchange for letting him shoot my rifles.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 04:04:02 AM »
Quote from: azmike
Another poster advising against the muzzle brake here.  

Also, I agree with prior posters that the 300WM is overrated.  IMO not that much more powerful than the 7mm mags, but with more blast and recoil.  If you really wanted a step up from Remingtons Big 7, a .338 bore (either -06 or magnum) would be a better choice.  

That said, the 7mm with 160 or 175 grain bullets is an outstanding elk caliber, and since you have experience with it already, you know that the recoil is manageable.

Good luck in your decision, and enjoy the process.


The 300 WM is not over rated, it is a great cartridge.
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Offline jro45

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 05:12:18 AM »
I don't think the 300 Win Mag is over rated either. It can shoot bigger bullets then the 7mm Mag can.

Offline azmike

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 04:07:42 PM »
Quote from: younghunter12
Hi. I'm looking for a elk gun for the upcoming season. I've looked into all reasonable calibers thourouly. Right now I'm leaning toward the .300 win mag. As said in my screen name I'm young. I'm 12 yrs old as said in my screen name. I have shot a 7.62x54r, 8mm mauser, 30-06 with 180 grs, and a 7mm Rem mag with 160 grs.

I was thinking that I'd get the 300 wm and put a muzzle break. That way when I get older I can take a muzzle brake off and I have myself a great caliber for big game.

The problem is that I don't have experience with muzzle breaks. I am pretty confident that I can take the recoil of a light 300 wm load. But for elk I was hoping for 180grs instead of a 150 gr bullet. My question is how much recoil does a mb take off? Thanks in advance. Alec.


Please allow me to rephrase:  In my opinion, for elk at reasonable ranges, the 7mm magnums will do as well as the 300 magnums, with less recoil or blast, and no need for a brake, which while reducing recoil makes for more blast.  For lighter than elk, I believe the 300 mags are too much gun, the 7's at the top end.

My brother has a .338WM with a brake, and while it is a softer shooter than my Ruger 77, 7mm RM, it is LOUD.  I actually saw my bro's hair blow back on his forehead from the blast the first time I went out to shoot it with him.  I know it was a .338 not a .300, but case capacity is similar, and the blast should be also.  Muzzle blast can cause discomfort (and a flinch) as well.

Younghunter12, sorry to have diverted the thread slightly with my poor choice of words.  If a .300 is what you want, enjoy.  One of the great things about hunting in the US is the variety of game, and equipment available.  But if you are concerned about recoil in a magnum, I suggest sticking with a 7mm instead of a .300 with a brake.  Surely others disagree and I respect that, but I'll stick with the 7mm or a 30-06, thanks.

Regards,

Mike

Offline grousehunter

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mb's
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 05:36:56 PM »
younghunter, punch into your PC (tinitus) and read thourghly) cuse the spelling! I  have it! and it is not a pleasure! Just check out all alternatives prior to making a decision!!!!!!!

Offline gwindrider1

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Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2006, 04:20:31 AM »
+ 1 vote against muzzle breaks!  Not only are they objectionally loud, even with hearing protection, but to me, they ruin the asthetic look of the rifle, and life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun!

If you can't handle the recoil of a given cartridge/rifle, then shoot something smaller.  Even a .308 with well constructed bullets will cleanly take an Elk. :wink:

Offline TreyAzagthoth

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 06:19:49 PM »
i'm about to get a 300 win mag myself, i'm weighing mine done a bit though, putting a harris bi pod, scope, bull barrell, atleast a 16oz mecury recoil reducer for the stock, a limb saver recoil pad with all that i'm sure i will feel very comfortable shooting it as i think a 30-06 doesnt kick bad at all where as some think it does so maybe getting it around that recoil will be awesome. so you could go that route and weigh it down(dont know if a young guy as yourself would want to be carrying a 13lb+ rifle around for too long) as everyone here as said the muzzle break does reduce recoil but the noise is just ridiculous especially with a 300 mag. you could probably get a shooting pad for your shoulder as well, but for your age i'd probably recommend a 30-06 with some 180 or 200 grain bullets.
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Offline SuperstitionCoues

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2006, 05:21:08 AM »
I am of two minds on muzzle breaks.

First of all, if you can shoot the 30-06 well, purchase that, use it, practice with it until you are so proficient that you are an honest-to-god threat to any herbivore ungulate or omnivore Ursis species walking around North America.

Once you have done that, then consider getting a muzzle break.  They have their uses, like anything else.  My preference is the Williams Guide Series.  I had one installed on a 7mm WSM, and the rifle is the best shooter in my collection now (1/2" group or less, and I have the targets to show it).  I couldn't maintain the shooting and bench technique to attain that accuracy if I had not used a muzzle break.  That is how much that magnum "thumps".  I had it installed after back surgery and two abdominal surgeries.  An extreme solution to an extreme level of recoil because of an extreme amount of medical care to my body.  Don't go to the extreme of a muzzle break unless you absolutely have too. 

You are young, in shape, and intelligent enough to ask questions.  That means that you can also make a rational decision to walk away from "magnum-itis" and develop good shooting skills instead.  Consider using a quality recoil pad (installed by a gunsmith) like a Simms Limbsaver, Pachmyer Decelerator, or a Kick-eez.  Recoil shields are good also, like what PAST offers.  If you need a muzzle break after these options even with a 30-06, and that's o.k. if you do... take a good look at the Browning line with the BOSS system also.  I think it's still an option for most standard calibers.

One other thing...compare the cost of the .30-06 ammo (which will handle almost anything on this continent) to a box of magnum shells.  You will save a lot of $$$ with the '06.
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Offline azmike

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2006, 02:17:31 PM »
I am of two minds on muzzle breaks.

First of all, if you can shoot the 30-06 well, purchase that, use it, practice with it until you are so proficient that you are an honest-to-god threat to any herbivore ungulate or omnivore Ursis species walking around North America.

Once you have done that, then consider getting a muzzle break.  They have their uses, like anything else.  My preference is the Williams Guide Series.  I had one installed on a 7mm WSM, and the rifle is the best shooter in my collection now (1/2" group or less, and I have the targets to show it).  I couldn't maintain the shooting and bench technique to attain that accuracy if I had not used a muzzle break.  That is how much that magnum "thumps".  I had it installed after back surgery and two abdominal surgeries.  An extreme solution to an extreme level of recoil because of an extreme amount of medical care to my body.  Don't go to the extreme of a muzzle break unless you absolutely have too. 

You are young, in shape, and intelligent enough to ask questions.  That means that you can also make a rational decision to walk away from "magnum-itis" and develop good shooting skills instead.  Consider using a quality recoil pad (installed by a gunsmith) like a Simms Limbsaver, Pachmyer Decelerator, or a Kick-eez.  Recoil shields are good also, like what PAST offers.  If you need a muzzle break after these options even with a 30-06, and that's o.k. if you do... take a good look at the Browning line with the BOSS system also.  I think it's still an option for most standard calibers.

One other thing...compare the cost of the .30-06 ammo (which will handle almost anything on this continent) to a box of magnum shells.  You will save a lot of $$$ with the '06.



Wow.  Very well put.

Offline roper

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2006, 03:24:45 PM »
Quote from: roper
  I e-mailed the presidet of the range that CH shoots and passed that information on to 24hr Campfire site after CH claims of the restriction on the use of a MB.  The president of Ben Lomond told me there was no restriction on the use of muzzle breaks and he shoot a rifle with one but CH said the president of the club didn't know what he was talking about.  Just for the fun of it I'm applying for a membership in that range since it's not too far from my place.   I'll post what happens when I take a muzzle brake rifle out to that range.

roper –

No need to join unless you want to – IÂ’ll be very happy to take you out there and show you the rules posted on the building at the covered 100-yard range.  I re-read them again a few days ago.  What I said was the President didnÂ’t put a lot of thought into his answer to you.  I stand by that statement.

No, there is no prohibition per se against firearms with muzzle breaks.  But there is a rule regarding their use.  How Bill or you can interpret posted rules regulating the use of  such firearms as "no restriction" is beyond me.

This is not word-for-word, but the gist of the rules is this – if you are shooting a firearm with a break, B.O.S.S. or .50 BMG, you must notify everyone on the firing line.  As I have stated before, anyone on the line can call a cease-fire at any time and for any reason.  If someone objects to your firearm a cease fire can – AND ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION HAS – been called due to muzzle breaks.  As I have also stated on the 24hourcampfire site, this is exactly how the rule was intended to work, as stated in the club newspaper at the time the notification rule was implemented – IF SOMEONE OBJECTS, YOU DONÂ’T SHOOT.

Coyote Hunter, Please tell all these good folks that on the benchrest range at Ben Lomand they have an enclosed building that you shoot from and the range rules for that certain range does state you must notify any shooter that you are going to shoot a muzzle brake or boss system rifle and the reason for that as state on the rule posted on the inside of that building is to make sure that they have proper hearing protection and no place is it stated that a vote would be take  also that the special rules that govern the benchrest range do not apply to any of the other ranges again this is an enclosed building and myself I wouldn't fire a high power rifle in that builing I'd go to the high power range.  There are a number of ranges at Ben Lomand and each range has a set of standard type safety rules posted then they have any restriction posted like what type ammo on the pistol side.  On the benchrest range on the  left side and as you walk into the building they have who that range was named for and enclosed in a glass case they again spell out why the restriction on that range they also had a red and green light system for that range as it would be hard to hear anything in that building and the lights are  also place to the right as you enter .  If as Coyote hunter said was true the other big bore ranges would have those same restriction posted and trust me there wasn't any.  Ben Lomand had range rules on the left side of the ranges that were posted and any restriction were on right side same as Benchrest Range and they sure were posted so you couldn't miss them.     They have all the pistol and high power ranges to the north of the club road and the Benchrest range is south of that road and no other range sites there.  I've never heard of a club (board of directors) giving the general membership the right to vote a member of good stand the right not to use club property as you stated "you don't shoot".   The rules on the benchrest range as posted would mean if I didn't notify a member that I was going to shoot a muzzle brake etc and make sure they had proper hearing protection that member would have every right to report me to the board for violating club rules (Posted).  Sending so-called new letter with new rules mean nothing unless the were send cerified.  Most gun clubs will change rules when the membership comes up for renewal so they can get a signature that the member accepts the rules and understands them and they are normally posted.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2006, 06:44:24 PM »
roper -

They say there are none so blind as those that will not see.  Never did I say anything about a “vote”.  What I said was there was the notification rule, which you admit to, and that anyone can call a ceasefire at any time, as a previous President of the club stated on the thread on 24hourcampfire. 

The fact of the matter is that ceasefires HAVE been called due to brakes being used, both at the benchrest range and at the longer ranges over the hill to the west.  In all but one case that I’ve witnessed a compromise was reached where the shooter with the braked rifle moved away form other shooters, or at least the ones that objected, and shooting resumed.  In one case no compromise was reached and the rifle was put away.  That particular incident happened at the covered benchrest range but the ceasefire was not called due to noise (because no one cared about the noise) but due to particles spraying out the brake and hitting other shooters.

I’ve explained to you on two web sites now what the rules are, what I recall about how the newsletter said they were intended to work, and how things have actually worked in practice.  If you have a problem with any of that, I guess I don’t care.

I will, however, continue to warn people who are considering a purchase of a braked rifle of the downsides of a brake.
Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline roper

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2006, 06:38:50 PM »
roper -

They say there are none so blind as those that will not see.  Never did I say anything about a “vote”.  What I said was there was the notification rule, which you admit to, and that anyone can call a ceasefire at any time, as a previous President of the club stated on the thread on 24hourcampfire. 

The fact of the matter is that ceasefires HAVE been called due to brakes being used, both at the benchrest range and at the longer ranges over the hill to the west.  In all but one case that I’ve witnessed a compromise was reached where the shooter with the braked rifle moved away form other shooters, or at least the ones that objected, and shooting resumed.  In one case no compromise was reached and the rifle was put away.  That particular incident happened at the covered benchrest range but the ceasefire was not called due to noise (because no one cared about the noise) but due to particles spraying out the brake and hitting other shooters.

I’ve explained to you on two web sites now what the rules are, what I recall about how the newsletter said they were intended to work, and how things have actually worked in practice.  If you have a problem with any of that, I guess I don’t care.

I will, however, continue to warn people who are considering a purchase of a braked rifle of the downsides of a brake.


As i said on the other site this has nothing to do with a cease-fire this has to do with your claimed you could object and not let another shoot use a rifle with a muzzle brake.  Please inform the shooter here how many shooting stations on the high powder range and the width of those ranges also the amount of shooting station in the building that is called the benchrest range.  You claimed posted rules now it's a newletter.

The first thing that is written on those range rules for Ben Lomand Gun Club is NRA and how can you be a member of the NRA and not support the Second Amendment or do you feel that your fellow NRA member that you may object to using a muzzle brake rifle and not allow to shoot has no rights.  How does a pistol shooter using a comp or has it ported not have the same rules?
Since the Benchrest Range doesn't have an established firing line as to placing of the shooting tables but does have a distance between set by the shooting tunnels Muzzle blast with or without a brake can be dangerous depending on calibers unless the shooters set a firing line as to placing of tables. On the rifle ranges I saw most only had two portable shooting tables some had none and the width was appr 50' and shooting station didn't have a cover or concrete pad  so shooters had to establish there own firing line.  Since I assume Ben Lomand doesn't have a range officer in place to call cease-fire the person calling  it has the responable to make sure all understand a cease-fire has been called.  Myself I use electronic hearing and when they are turned down to shoot I cann't hear anything. 

I shoot a four different ranges here In Co and most shooters are pretty courteous to each other.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2006, 07:12:36 PM »
Good point about a handgun with a compensator, yes this would have a good deal of blast, especially one of the new 460XVR or 500Smiths, a fine line indeed! Also, what about a rifle with a long barrel & a muzzel brake on a mild round just because  the owner does'nt want any muzzle rise like on a Varmiter, but then someone shows up with a 20" barrel 300 Mag. which would be louder than the first rifle. Now what?

It would be nice for folks to use some sense & if you have a loud gun, try to get some distance. I
believe most problems can be solved without excluding some people with weapons that are different.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2006, 02:36:03 PM »
roper –

First, the only posted rule I ever talked about was a notification rule, which you agree exists.  When the notification rule was introduced at the club there was an article about it in the newsletter, which goes to all members, explaining how it was intended to work, which is as I have described.  Further, it HAS worked that way.  So I’m not sure what you’re complaining about. 

The “Benchrest Range doesn't have an established firing line as to placing of the shooting tables”???  For God’s sake, they are made of concrete tops and steel legs!  Nobody moves them, and while I don’t recall (don’t use that range much), I believe they are attached to the concrete floor!  The firing line is very well established!  On the 100/200 range there is a number of portable benches (the number varies) that can be moved around, but they all have to sit in the pea gravel that is bordered by concrete edging – another well-defined shooting area.

You are correct that there is no defined firing line at the pistol ranges and the 100-yard rifle range that is there.  People shoot at all different ranges, depending on their desire.  Also at the 100/200 yard range to the west, if you back up to 300, 400 or 500 yards there is no well defined line, but I have never seen more than 3 shooters at a time at any of these distances and a line was formed and benches set up accordingly.  Not a big deal, and again totally irrelevant.

The number of benches is not relevant (and it changes because they are portable).  You saw the range, your guess on the width is as good as mine.  You want to describe the range, go ahead.  It’s also irrelevant.

As to Range Officers, the club has lots of them.    Whoever shows up at a particular range first becomes the RO.  Haven’t seen any real issues or problems with that arrangement.

“Muzzle blast with or without a brake can be dangerous” – well, yes, but I have never seen a rifle without a brake spit stuff out sideways like the ones with brakes often do.  For what it is worth, I have seen ceasefires called due to handguns as well as brakes, and for the same issues – stuff spitting out sideways and the blast. 

What I originally claimed – and still do – is that if someone objects to your brake you don’t shoot it.  I define objecting as being concerned enough to call a ceasefire, which anyone on at the range can do at any time.  I have only seen a gun put away once due to a brake, all other times the various parties involved came to a compromise that everyone could accept.  None of the ceasefires I have seen called were due to noise – it has always been about the blast and/or the particles ejected in the blast.  I have also seen ceasefires called due to flying brass and other problems.  In each case it’s the same – someone calls a ceasefire and the shooting stops – at least until a compromise is reached.

By the way, I support the NRA just fine, well beyond simple paying of dues.  If people want to shoot braked rifles, I support that too, no problems.  What I cannot support, and never will, is someone infringing on the rights of other club members to a safe and enjoyable shooting environment.  You talk about how “most shooters are pretty courteous to each other” and then talk as if that’s not the case.  The fact of the matter is they generally are and when someone objects to something an acceptable resolution is generally reached pretty quickly.

Coyote Hunter
NRA, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

Offline 6.5Jeffrey

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Re: Muzzle Breaks?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2006, 01:47:26 PM »
I agree with the general anti-brake sentiment and would add one more consideration.
  If ever you plan on a guided hunt there are those outfitters who WILL NOT allow muzzle brakes. My family has been in the business for 20 years and you WILL NOT use a brake with us. A cousin has permenant deafness due to one muzzle blast from a dude standing behind and shooting muzzle even with his head. YES there would have been a problem even without a brake but we have all been there and done that  and all agree the muzzle brake caused his loss.
    30-06 with premium 165-180 grain bullets in the new "lightmag/high intensity" loads are damned hard to improve upon. Many of our elk are the longe range sage-brush variety and Id rather see a well worn '06 come out of your case than any new super magnum you havent shot. This muzzle brake gonna cost you $200?$300?....Thats alot of practice ammo.
  Having said that I DO have one braked rifle. Its my coyote gun. It seems like the brake makes muzzle blast hard for targets to pinpoint and often I can shoot a second or even third dog before they locate me and retreat.