Author Topic: I Learned sumpthin;  (Read 1528 times)

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Offline lostid

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I Learned sumpthin;
« on: June 17, 2006, 05:58:22 PM »
Now I'm a shooter, so don't get me wrong. And this ain't my normal forum; but i learned today sumpthin that I queary of other shooters.
 A feller said; an attacker can to" an un-aware victom, draw a knife,,run 20 feet(twenty) and cut/slash/ or otherwise harm a person proir to that persons ability to respond with a concieled firearm. is said thing a truth?
i'm a realist. i've not seen it all, but man ,,I've Been Around the block once or twice

Offline PaulS

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Re: I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2006, 07:26:34 PM »
Quote from: lostid
Now I'm a shooter, so don't get me wrong. And this ain't my normal forum; but i learned today sumpthin that I queary of other shooters.
 A feller said; an attacker can to" an un-aware victom, draw a knife,,run 20 feet(twenty) and cut/slash/ or otherwise harm a person proir to that persons ability to respond with a concieled firearm. is said thing a truth?


If an attacker can run twenty feet before you can get your gun out and kill him there is something seriously wrong with either your technique or your rig. I have to quote from a level five black belt who was teaching a Karate class that I was attending when I was 21. In his opening statements; "there are two things that Karate is useless against, the first is a man who is twice your size and the other is any man with a gun."
Ok, I am a slow old man with severe back problems and I carry a six inch revolver in a pancake holster on my strong side. With a jacket on, and at rest in suprise response I can draw and fire twice accurately in less than 1 second. If I know the guy is being a bad guy and I manuver to conceal my draw I can have him dead before he can respond. The one with surprise on his side will get the first move. Even if he makes the first move I won't be dead before he is - I may die but it takes at least 30 seconds to bleed out to the point where you lose consciousness. That is a couple of reloadings of the cylinder and in eighteen shots there are going to be some dead bad guys.
POINT: there is no way to keep someone from killing you if that is what is on his mind. Defense firearms are concealed so you have the element of surprise on your side. If he knows you have a gun then he can be the guy next to you in line and kill you while preventing you from using your gun. That isn't the way things usually go down. Usually you will be using your gun in defense of someone else - where the bad guy's attention will be. If a bad guy wants my money then he can have it - he isn't going to get rich and if I get the chance he is going to get dead.
SECOND POINT: if you are going to carry educate yourself on the rules and practice real life senarios under real life conditions. Its the only way to be good at anything - PRACTICE!
Not bad for an old minister of the faith, eh?
PaulS

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Offline aaronrkelly

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2006, 12:01:06 AM »
This is a VERY famous drill called the Tueller Drill.  Its taught at every level of law enforcement.


The below is from this website

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

"We have done some testing along those lines recently and have found that an average healthy adult male can cover the traditional seven yard distance in a time of (you guessed it) about one and one-half seconds. It would be safe to say then that an armed attacker at 21 feet is well within your Danger Zone.

 
As the photo series illustrates, even if your draw and shots are perfect, you are cutting things awfully close (no pun intended). And even if your shots do take the wind out of his sails, his forward momentum may carry him right over the top of you, unless, of course, you manage to get out of his way. And if you are confronted with more than one assailant, things really get tricky. So what's a pistol-packing person to do? "

Google for MUCH MORE information about the Tueller drill, its a reality....

Offline Dusty Miller

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 08:51:31 AM »
At 63 years of age I'm not going to start learning the intricasies of close quarter, hand to hand combat (especially against younger, stronger, bigger, and faster opponents).  My strategy is to avoid those situations that are most likely to become dangerous.  I RARELY go to a movie at night, as a matter of fact going out at night is something that I've all but given up.  Sometimes I leave from work at 11:00 PM and have to stop for gas (poor planning on my part) but when I do I'm super alert for any suspicious characters.  We live in a semi-rural environment at the end of a long driveway so a drive-by shooting is extremely unlikely.  The doors of my car are always locked and I stop well back of the car in front of me at an intersection.  In other words, I'm something of a CS of the first rank! :) I'm not look'n to be a hero and my mouth stays shut even when some a.h. richly deserves a good toungue lashing.  One's entire LIFE STYLE will go a long way to promoting (or degrading) one's personal safety.  Hopefully I'll never have to deal with one of those "serious social situations" simply because I take a circuitrous route around trouble.  Just the same, that Roscoe on my belt feels good.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2006, 08:54:56 AM »
:shock: If you are unaware that the attack is coming, chances are your gun will never clear leather.  If aware, I was taught, when possible, place something between you and the bad guy, a car, grocery buggy, or wharever is available to slow them down if they decide to rush you.  If nothing is available, back away as quickly and safely as you can.

The only protection I know of to prevent injury from an attacker you are unaware of is "pray that it doesn't happen," and try to avoid those places where it may happen. :wink:

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2006, 08:58:56 AM »
I might add that being quick to offer an apology even when you feel you are in the right can keep situations from heating up.  I try to keep my ego in my pocket and my macho in my pants.  Things seem to go a lot easier that way.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Savage

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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2006, 02:41:18 PM »
As Rockbilly stated, and as I witnessed in training, very few persons can draw from a duty holster and get hits on a charging agressor in under 1.5 seconds. Much less from a good concealment rig. Force on force training validates this over and over. By adding lateral movement along with the draw you can buy a little time and distance that may alow you to survive.
Stay safe all!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2006, 05:18:50 PM »
:D Dusty, some of you young folks have a good head on your shoulders...I agree with you,  Â“I can out talk a sensible man, and out run a fool.”  discretion is always the better part of valor. That is why I said, pray and, when possible,  avoid those places that may require you to draw a weapon.

I carry, but it is only as a last resort that I would pull the gun.  It has came out a couple of times, but I haven't had to fire it because the situation was defused when the person found out I was armed and would meet force with force.  :roll:

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2006, 06:26:59 PM »
Yeah Rockbilly, criminals generally are capable of making a really smart decision when things are stacked against them.  Just don't count on that every time, there are those criminals who go on automatic pilot and the presence of a gun don't mean squat to them.  Juz' try to avoid'm the best ya can and know in your own mind that when TSHTF you are capable and willing to drop the hammer.  After that, its up to the lawyers.  Oh, and BTW, thanks for that "young folks" comment, that kinda made my day :D
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline KN

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2006, 12:15:16 PM »
If you don't belive it get some props and a couple of freinds and try it. It will open your eyes to just how vulnerable you may be.   KN

Offline williamlayton

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 12:14:48 AM »
The older one is the longer it takes to react.
I too try and take the safe route. I do so in my driving, and my personal protection. I am too old to fight and flight is pretty slow motion.
I have decided that I will avoid. If I cannot avoid then I will have too stand my ground and fight, the other possibilities being too much of a long shot, But, I do not plan to fight fair.
Folks this business is something we have all done all our lives. It is just that the older one gets the more one must realize our short comings and adjust.
I do not plan on giving up or giving in, I want too live life-I am just a little more cautious about it.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rockbilly

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2006, 06:37:09 AM »
:D Williamlayton, You and Dusty are young men, at that age you should be able to scrap with the best of em...........lol.

At our age it is best to advise the bad guy, "Iam too old to fight you, so if I get mad enough to hit you, then I am mad enough to shoot you."

No, as we get older, we learn to walk away from a situation that may have provoked fistacuffs a few years back.  But even a young man would be stupid to get invilved in a situation ewhere he may have to defend himself with only his fist, today everybody carrys a weapon, don't they?

For that reason, it is easy to suck it up and walk away when possible, the Sig 220 is only for those situation that I can't walk away from. :roll:

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2006, 08:40:53 AM »
YUP!
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2006, 10:17:30 AM »
Any younger man who'd get into a fight with an older one is a sad excuse for a man but there's plenty of them out there.  The courts recognize disparity in size and I'm sure disparity in age is something they'd consider also.  If a young thug just is not going to let go of the situation then I'm convinced that resorting to lethal force will be seen as much more justifiable.  Its a sign of the times we live in.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Sir Knight

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 02:25:28 AM »
Years ago, thugs had a sense of "honor" about them. All of that changed about 20-30 years ago.
The shortest distance between a problem and a solution is the distance between your knees and the floor because the one who kneels to the Lord can stand up to anything.

Offline jimster

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 06:32:10 AM »
It is possible a man with a knife can run full spead at you within 20 feet, and hurt you bad...seen it myself in classes I took.
Except...one guy who did this drill "cheated"....he had his gun pulled out and pointed at the guy with the knife ahead of time.
When the instructor said your supposed to start with the gun in the holster, the guy said, why that would be stupid, I know he has a knife, and it's plain view, might as well point my gun at him right away.
Good point too.  Also...a guy with a knife that knows you have a gun probably won't run at you if it's pointed at him already....at least most times. But I suppose all it takes is one crazy man to hurt you.

I guess if see a deadly weapon on someone, you best have yours in your hand, in if your in a questional place, best have yours in your hand, or at least your hand on it.
And...if your really having a bad day and some guy pulls a knife with no warning and runs at you, and you don't have time to draw and aim and shoot...maybe you can just draw the gun and split his head open with it faster than you can shot it....LOL!!!  

I guess since we can't always plan on coming out on top of all situations, being aware of all things and people around you help a lot, and possibly avoiding certain places help too.  
Awareness is a key facter to avoid some things, as well as having a confident attitude and good posture...those things send signals to bad guys also.

I sure hope nobody runs at me full spead within 20 feet with a knife, I doubt I'm fast enough to keep from getting sliced up if caught off gaurd.

Offline Rogue Ram

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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2006, 05:55:31 PM »
A bad guy with a knife did in fact stab a Police Officer co worker in San Francisco about 10 years ago.  He was closer than 21 feet and played hell getting the guy off of him. PO was stabbed above the vest (deliberate aim) down towards the vitals. Fight ended up on the ground with others jumping in. His gun never cleared leather so to speak. PO survived to tell me about it. He'd just been talking to the guy asking a few questions on the street, broad daylight, 10 feet away or so.

As a cop, I have face two thugs with knives. Could have and should have shot the first one but waylaid him with a baton. Second time was on a transit train, he cooperated.  In either case I kept something between us and would have dumped either of them in a heartbeat if needed.

21 feet is the minimum............

Offline WNY_Whitetailer

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I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2006, 07:06:21 PM »
21 feet is the minimum for sure...Any person in reasonable good health can cover 21 feet in a few seconds...That's only 7 yards...Like was stated before, if you do not know the attack is coming, you are going to be cut for sure.  You're best bet is to get something in between you and the attacker or move laterally while drawing your weapon to fight back.  You will probably get cut but you stand a greater chance of survival this way.  One shot will not stop a charging bad guy...You will need multiple shots to stop the threat.  Better to shoot the bad guy more than enough times rather than less...
Patience comes with age and You can't teach common sense

Offline papajohn428

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Re: I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2006, 12:37:20 PM »
Well said...........If I'm on duty and all I have is six shots and no time to reload, he's getting all six, the first four in the chest and then we'll see about a head-shot or two if it's feasble.   Or as my Field Training Officer told me twenty years ago, "If he has a knife visible, warning shots are in order.  Two to the chest and one to the head ought to be enough of a warning.  If that doesn't dissuade him, feel free to light him up!"


Papajohn
 
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline Cottonwood

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Re: I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2006, 02:59:42 AM »
I sometimes have taken friends to an underground indoor range that I belong to.  We would set up a B-27 cardboard target on the mechanical system.  I would have them load up, holster and get ready, and then carry on just a normal conversation..... and then casually  hit the button and the target would run out to its stop at 15 yards.   I would hit the button to advance the target return, and start yelling he's got a knife he's running at you...  ???  the expression was priceless.

I would then yell, "He's got a knife shoot his !@#"  Sometimes by then, the target was already on them, and their barrel was hitting the B-27 at which time they would blow one large hole in it before I could stop them.

Some would say, that's not fair, I wasn't ready  :o


ALWAYS be ready!


It's even more fun practicing with 2 advancing B-27 targets.  double tap_double tap..........double tap_double tap.........double tap_double tap.......double tap_double tap til slide lock.

Offline DWTim

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Re: I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2006, 08:58:29 AM »
I don't know how old those pictures are, but I've read enough by retired cops to know that the displayed technique is not the right one. Sorry if I'm being an Armchair General, but I've heard enough opinions on the subject to come to the conclusion that drawing one's weapon and assuming the proper Weaver Stance is a complete waste of precious time when the assailant will be on top of you by the time you fire.

There's a reason police carry short-barreled pistols with fixed sights. First, they're quicker on the draw, and second, they're harder for an attacker to grab. That's probably why authors of shotgun technique recommend a pistol for work inside arm's length. Long story short: You pull your sidearm and begin firing as soon as the muzzle is in the assailant's general direction, possibly even when the gun is waist-high, then you get the gun up and do some placed shots if he does not crumple.

Lots of people just run out and buy a CCW gun without thinking about how fast it will draw, and whether or not it "points" as easily as the index finger. I can infer this from the amount of time they don't spend on the range practicing. But then, few ranges allow you to practice defensive shooting techniques. I'm undecided about the final stance. With arms extended, you are more likely to take a non-lethal knife wound in the arms rather than in the vitals. On the other hand, you open yourself up to the possibility of wrangling for control of the gun (since it's sticking way out there) if you were too slow to react.

I didn't think this was in dispute any longer. I see the defensive shooting schools teaching fast draw, continue firing while backing away from the assailant.

Also: To be sure, the article is a 9th Inning Argument. You know, you're listening to the wrap up, and the team's fans are critical of so-and-so because he "lost the game" in the 9th. Hardly any critcism is aimed at the rest of the team, who put themselves in that position in the first 8 innings. In other words, if you've been surprised, then something critical is malfunctioning in your brain to begin with. I see dozens of people every day, wandering around staring the clouds while talking on their mobile phones. They mindlessly wander out in front of cars. If you aren't paying attention well enough to hear/feel/see the approach of a two-ton vehicle, you're fresh meat for a 200 lb. attacker.


EDIT #2: OK, I just looked a little more closely, the officer isn't using the Weaver Stance. But still, he's defending his life, not shooting bowling pins.



Offline inluvwithsara

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Re: I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2006, 09:40:26 AM »
Kinda funny...I was doing some drills at the range a couple weeks ago...gun in holster, under my vest, ..two booths down were two gents with autos in a duty rig, using a buzzer to start...so at the buzzer I'd clear the vest and draw my 44 and put 6 rounds on the target 10yards away...what caught their attention was that it was a single action 44, and I often would beat them to the first two shots, and would get my six 300 grainers out about as fast as them, in an equal or better goup then they...
So why...I know my gun and I can shoot a decent group at 10 yrds without using the sites...they would not pull the trigger till they lined up their sights to shoot...my first shot was on instictive shooting...the follow up with sights...

Pick a gun that fits you, points like your finger and practice, practice, practice...
This doesn't mean I could beat any of you Old Timers...in fact I know I couldn't...
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Offline Dee

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Re: I Learned sumpthin;
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2006, 04:12:37 PM »
If he gives me any warning he'll be 15 feet away when he falls. If your info is right the coroner will find multiple wound tattooing on his carcus. Them contact wounds leave a mark. While I was at the academy once taking a class in 1977 an instructer who was a black belt told me he could cover 15 or 20 feet (I forget which) before I could draw and fire. I told him it wouldn't matter, he'd still be dead. He was trying to be smart because he knew I was a weapons instructer and ran a SWAT unit. With all his hand to hand training he wanted to feel superior in front of his students. He asked me if I wanted to try it, and I said sure if I get to use a loaded gun. Turns out he wasn't as confident as he let on to be. At that time I was 27 years old. When I was 47 years old I could still run the EL Presidenti in 6 seconds flat (with a reload in the middle and starting from the holster) with a 1911 set up for working the street. Now I'm almost 60 but, would still take that bet. Like that other guy said; pratice a lot. But, mind set is what's important. Being dexterious is one thing. Being willing, is an entirely different matter. ;)
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett