Author Topic: .303 British Enfield Rifles  (Read 8859 times)

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Offline RIFLE MAN

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.303 British Enfield Rifles
« on: April 02, 2003, 12:47:32 PM »
Which of the British .303 Enfield rifles are the best with regard to accuracy, durability, and collectibility? Also, what should a person beware of when looking for one for general hunting and shooting purposes?

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Rifle Man
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Offline Double D

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.303 British Enfield Rifles
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 01:29:27 PM »
Without question the most accurate, collectible, valuable and desireable .303 Enfields are the Martini Enfields!!!!   :-)

That ought to fire everybody up!

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2003, 05:07:45 AM »
My vote would be for a P-14 For accuracy!
They are not well balanced though.
If you can find a #4 Mk 1 * with the
"2 groove rifling", They too are very
acccurate.
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Offline John Y Cannuck

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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2003, 06:34:45 AM »
For accuracy, I think you're going to have to check individual rifles.
The P14 as a whole, may be more accurate, but individual SMLE rifles are unbelievablly so.
The Ross, is another consideration, a good one will blow the others out of the water accuracy wise. But it has saftey issues, at least with the 1910 model. Good unaltered Ross rifles are hard to come by, and comand a fair dollar.

The Martini? Each to his own I guess, some like 'em some think they're ugly.
I stradle the fence personally. Nice collectors piece, good accuracy to from what I've heard.
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Offline Venator

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.303 British Enfield Rifles
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2003, 06:44:02 AM »
As for accuracy and durability, I'd go for the No. 4, Mark II.  They're also relatively inexpensive.  In the No. 4's, I prefer the Canadian Longbranch.  Good, pristine No. 4's are somewhat collectible, especially Longbranch or the "Irish issue" rifles in very good condition.

As for collectibility, it can range all over the map: Long Lees, pre WWI No. 1's, maple-stocked 1920's Lithgows, Jungle Carbines, and so on.  I would suggest picking a series you like, and look for a clean example.  You can't go wrong with Enfield.
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Offline flintlock54

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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2003, 04:52:43 PM »
Here is my two cents. The most accurate enfield I own, and I own a few including a P14, is my 1949 post war No.4 MKI FAZ South African marked that I bought from Brian Dick/BDL LTD last year. The best group so far is 3/4" @ 100 yards with issue sights.
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Offline Hi-Wall

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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2003, 01:02:41 PM »
I have to concur. the #4 mk 1 is the most inherently accurate. I have a sporter by santa fe arms that has been with me since the 60's. still shoots 1"- 2" groups. Anyone have an original rear site assembly for it. I put a scope on it yrs. back and misplaced(senior moment :) ) It
aim small, miss small : The patriot
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Offline Buster

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.303 British Enfield Rifles
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2003, 01:17:36 PM »
I have a 1945 jungle carbine which will shoot less than 2" anytime with the one handload I've tried in it.  The load is Remington case, once fired and Lee collet die neck sized, WLR primer, 180 grain Remington Core-lokt bullet, and a near max charge of AA2520.

The rifle is original metal but was in an old Herter's stock when I purchased it.  The stock was cracked behind the trigger guard so I switched it into a Ram-line for the #4 after a glue-up repair failed.   The Ram-Line is unquestionably the way to go for an Enfield.   You can find them on sale for $34.00.  

I free-floated the Ram-Line with my pocketknife, adjusted the well for the front guard pillar for a perfect fit, and added a cheap black nylon sling.

I'll never sell this rifle.

Hopefully in the future I will be able to do rebarreling and rechambering of the Lee-Enfields.  I went in half on an old LeBlond lathe and tooling and I'm slowly getting into it with my brother in law looking over my shoulder.  He is the co-owner and a toolmaker by trade.

One avenue which I would recommend to anyone interested in these old Enfields is to buy Bubba'd rifles and restore them.  Most all the parts are available with some luck.  As long as the barrel isn't cut you are in business usually.

If ANYONE ever comes across a source of new original replacement barrels for the #4's, PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

Offline Double D

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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2003, 02:42:50 PM »
I just noticed John Y Cannuck, called Her Majesty's ME, Ugly! Almost got by me.

There is no comparrison of the SMLEy with beautifull flowing lines of HM's Martini Enfield.  SMLEy...Box fed, first generation assualt rifle...next thing you know he'll advocate is doing away with the Square and Scarlet coat!

Seriously, collecting wise a complete collection of .British .303's would have to include MM's, ME's, Long Lee's, SMLE variations and P-14.  

On the other hand if it was 303 Enfields you were collecting, you would only need the ME, Long Lee and SMLE variants.

See guys you have lots of new toys to buy!

Ugly, indeed, and from a Canadian no less.   Then my lovely Scottish mother always said the Canadians were almost as uncultured as the Americans. She would saythis  in referring to my Canadian father  :)

Offline X-man

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« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2003, 05:44:56 PM »
My $0.02, the "best" Lee-Enfields in terms of fit/finish and value are the Longbranch LE, no question. My second choice is the Lithgow SMLE. I have many examples of both in issue condition, and several of which that had been cut down to "sporter" configuration. Was able to restore several, but kept one Long Branch with hvy bbl and one Aussie SMLE in the "sporterized" condition I bought them in. They came with synthetic stocks, and I haven't had the time/inclination to track down original wood for them. Living in Newfoundland, the .303 Lee-Enfield is synonymous with "Moose Rifle". Probably more moose have met their maker because of the .303 than just about every other caliber/rifle combination you can think of put together! In terms of collector interest/value, the Sniper versions (usually designated with a (T) are commanding very good prices. There is also a pretty good demand for the older Martini variants. For shooters though, can't beat a good Longbranch of Smelly! X-man...
"...Only accurate rifles are interesting."

                 - Colonel Townsend Whelen

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2003, 05:31:20 AM »
Fellas: My 1942 US Stamped Savage Arms #4, MkI 2 groove groups a hair under 3/4" at 100 yds.  My FAZ with battle sights makes one large nice, yeller whole in the shoot n see target using S&B ammo.  My #1, Mk3 is consistent within an inch and battle sights at 100 yds with .312 diameter bullets.  

As far as calibers go, I like the 303 Brit.  I know there has been some widcatting on this case, most probably in Australia but, I wonder if anyone has opened it up to a 35 caliber, and did it result in dangerous pressures or was it able to shoot a fatter boolet with better hunting effect within acceptable pressures for that action?  Mikey.

Offline Rick Teal

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« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2003, 12:37:49 PM »
Mikey:

The Epps conversions done here in Canada combined squaring the case, improving the shoulder and resizing the neck.  An Epps conversion, still in .303, was purported to produce velocities in the 2800+ fps range with 180 grain bullets.  These were necked to many different calibres during the '60's and '70's, and in the last couple of years I did see one for sale with a .35 bore.  The higher velocity/pressure loads were only recommended for P14's and Rosses (1895 Winchesters would probably be OK as well), while the conversion was never (to my knowledge) done on No 1 rifles, and reduced loads were recommended for No 4's and 5's.
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Offline Paul McC

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.303 Lee Enfields
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2003, 12:21:52 PM »
G’day fellas,

                     I own a few No.4’s, and No.1’s, and one lonely .303 Martini Enfield, I do not currently own a No.3 (P14), but have used them, and I can only dream about a Ross.

    The best all rounder, the one I use in our Service Rifle Competition (more like the shooting equivalent of a vintage car race than a real Service Rifle Comp.) is the No.4. The Service Rifle Comp. can include ranges from 600yds to 100yds, slow fire, snap (1shot 3second exposure, times 10) rapid ( 10 shots in 50 seconds, or 2 times 5 shots in 25 secs. with a compulsory reload) even the occasional Mad Minute (60 seconds unlimited rounds).

    The No.3 (P14) rifle is inherently more accurate due to its Mauser type action and simpler bedding, but it’s not as quick to operate, and its rear sight is not as finely adjustable as a No 4 (with the exception of the rarer fine adjustment rear sight added to some WW1 sniper P14’s).

    The No.4 I use most of all is an unaltered, as issued 1954 Fazakarly Mk 2, it will group 10 174 grain Sierra Match King reloads into 1.5” at 100yds. This doesn’t sound particularly impressive accuracy, but given the “all round” nature of the Service Rifle Match, it was good enough to win last years Service Rifle State Championship (less than 70 competitors). The bloke who came second was actually the better shooter, he used an as issued long barrelled Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55mm fired from the left shoulder. The straight out bolt handle is much quicker for lefties.
 
    The No.1’s can be as good and accurate as the No.4’s, particularly if they’re fitted with the heavier barrel (same weight as No.4 barrel), but I find the open sights harder to use.

    The Martini Enfield can get off 10 shots in 50 seconds, and is easily as accurate as the other Enfields, but once again the sights pose a problem.  

    The biggest problem I have is ammunition. Surplus ammo varies too much in availability and accuracy, and good quality projectiles are hard to get and expensive; almost twice as much as the equivalent .308 projectile. No.4’s converted to 7.62x51 are popular on the range for this reason.

    Any good clean unaltered Lee Enfield is worth collecting, the Ross rifle even more so. The most collectable would have to be the rarer prototypes such as the Canadian “Jungle Carbine”, their experiments in making a lightweight No.4, or the Australian experimental shortened and lightened No.1 Mk3’s. And of course any “sniper” variant, especially if it still has all of it’s original accessories.

    A popular conversion here in Australia, is to cut down a No.4 to resemble a No.5 “Jungle Carbine” and set the barrel back to take the 7.62x39mm round. This is often done without rechambering, only shortening the existing .303 chamber. This conversion also requires a new magazine (a 7.62x39mm mag. can be grafted into a .303 mag.) and the bolt head modified by the addition of a circular lip and plunger ejector. These rifles perform as well at 100 and 200yds as any .303 Enfield.

   In the earlier half of the 20th century BSA built sporting Lee Enfields in 7mm and 8mm Mauser, .32/40, and even a big bore in .375; this .375 Express was basically a lengthened .303 case firing a 270 grain bullet at about 1975 fps. I would personally like a Lee sporter in .256 Manlicher (6.5x54mm Rimmed).

I love Lee Enfields, Paul.

Offline MChewk

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.303 British Enfield Rifles
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2003, 03:05:58 AM »
Darn you guys went over my heads as far as all the Enfield history...good stuff!   all I got is a old beat up 303 that will out shoot anything I've got in open sights. I love it! I took it with me to a Prairie Dog hunt in S.Dakota and was flipping p.dogs out to 200 yd.s on several occasions...open sights. I need another Enfield 303!!!!

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2003, 04:23:28 AM »
MChewk:  Man, you can sure learn something new every day from these sites.  Some of these guys are just incredible fonts of knowledge.  As I mentioned in my previous post, I just love those Smelly 3s but, if you want to get yourself another one, see if you can find a #4 Mk I made in America by Stevens.  Many never went overseas or saw battle condtions and are still in pretty darn good shape and if they shoot like mine or the current 303 you own, you will have found a good'un.  Also, if you can find a Parker Hale sporter - usually #4 Mk Is,  they are reputed to be very accurate.  Just me additional 2 cents.  Mikey.

Offline 1911crazy

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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2003, 08:57:46 AM »
I have a #4 Mk1 and still haven't shot her yet too busy shootin everything else.  But I'm seeing these at shows $75 to $150 and gun shops for $175 up to $250.  I guess I'm missing out on some fun/accuracy??   BigBill

Offline 414SM-E.T.GATES

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Lee enfield 45-70
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2003, 04:37:13 PM »
:gun4:  Anybody shoot th 45-70 yet?  These American design guns are fun to shoot
Father E.T. Gates inventor of the Supermags.  I have books, Load Data Wesson parts, Brass and Dies. "There is no excuse for that first well placed shot"  Elgin Gates

Offline sambar02

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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2003, 04:56:18 AM »
I have had a no.4 converted to 303 Epps it took a bit to get the magazine to feed the improved cases but it works now. i fit 9 Epps rounds in the mag or 10 standard 303 british rounds .Even in the no.4 action the epps is up with the 30-06 but with a lot less recoil,i can't wait till steve.Regwell of www.303british.com fame gets his 200 grn. 303 bullet production up and running, I bought this rifle for $50.00 and even with the rechamber job and ramline stock added it still hasn,t gone over $250 except for the detachable mounts i got sent over from theU.S they cost me damn near as much as the rest . This is the most accurate centre fire  rifle i and any of my hunting mates have used with open sights that is with the standard flip up peep, using either standard 303 rounds or the Epps improved.In fact i have to hide it from the others when i take it out. There used to be a 35 cal version around in the 50's and 60's apparantely it surpassed the 358 win. Steve has several books out on the 303 plus wildcats on the 303 cartridge,if you are interested i suggest you check out his web site :D

Offline 45nut

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45-70 No1Mk3
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2003, 02:40:43 PM »



My converted SMLE  :grin:  full furniture and carrying 3 rounds down and one up courtesy of a Gibbs magazine.    Very interesting to have a slap from a 45-70 from that brass buttplate I can assure you. :eek:    45nut[/img]