Siclair/Wilson case trimmer good bad or ugly?

[Bigboar]

Does anyone have an opinion on wether he Siclair/Wilson case trimmer is worh the money?  Any help would be great.

bigboar

[PaulS]

Bigboar,
Which Sinclair/Wilson trimmer are talking about?
I have Lyman and Forster trimmers and they are accurate and easy to use. The Forster is a tad easier for me to switch calibers on because I made bushings for both my trimmers. The only thing I don't like about the Forster trimmer is the collets used to hold the cartridges. It makes it a challenge to set up bushings to trim cartridges with different bases.
The Lyman uses "claws" like extractors to hold the case against a solid base so the measurment to trim length is from a fixed point. A bushing to trim a case to two inches is always the same dimension. The drawback with the Lyman is that you have to remove the cutter head to change bushings because the cutter head is a larger outside diameter than the shaft it is mounted on.
The Wilson that I have seen required a bushing to hold the case and sometimes two bushings, one for a sized case and a different one for fired case. I would rather have the case centered in the base and use a pilot in the neck so that it is turned on the actual axis of the fired (or sized) case. Rather than having a bushing or two for each cartridge I only need a pilot for each caliber that I load for. Bushings to hold a cartridge have to fit the taper and length for every cartridge you shoot and are more expensive than pilots. Each time you trim a different cartridge you have to set up and adjust for trim length. With my bushimgs all I have to do is swap out a bushing (it takes about 20 seconds on either of my trimers) and I am trimming to the proper length - I never have to touch an adjustment.

[roper]

Reason for the case holder with the Wilson trimmers is the case mouth is  square with the cutter.  In a collet trimmer if the case head is off  your case mouth won't be square.   One of the old tricks with the Wilson trimmer on a new case was to trim the mouth alittle then reverse the case and take the high spots off the case head give you a more square case to start with then you could trim to length.   Then you fire that case  might just have to trim once more but that fired round would be square with the chamber.  If you trim the case head after firing you can change the headspace on that case.  Reason the Wilson cost alittle more afew extra features.    Well good luck.

[PaulS]

Reason for the case holder with the Wilson trimmers is the case mouth is  square with the cutter.  In a collet trimmer if the case head is off  your case mouth won't be square.   One of the old tricks with the Wilson trimmer on a new case was to trim the mouth alittle then reverse the case and take the high spots off the case head give you a more square case to start with then you could trim to length.   Then you fire that case  might just have to trim once more but that fired round would be square with the chamber.  If you trim the case head after firing you can change the headspace on that case.  Reason the Wilson cost alittle more afew extra features.    Well good luck.

Does anyone actually trim case heads? Then you would have to set the primer pocket in to make it as deep as it is supposed to be. That would affect the amount of solid head (web) on the case. I don't think that would be something I would be doing - The base of the cartidge after firing is fitted to the breach and your trimming would be for nothing, unless your bolt face, and breach lock-up were trued and square. (if that was the case then your first firing would straighten out the base of the case anyway.) It sounds a little gimmickey to this old loader and another way to charge more for something you don't need.

[roper]

Paul, were not talking about taking alot of brass off normally from the outside rim to the primer pocket it  is more oval from the stamping.   Rim thickness varies if you care to measure it and primer pocket depth also varies myself I use a primer pocket uniformer that cleans and cuts the depth and I think most shooters use one.  If the thickness of the rim was uniform you would need to worry about primer pocket depth if buying a bag of Win 223 brass.
The shell holder for the Wilson  trimmer simulates a rifle chamber and it sits in a rail system that gives a square cut so if you square the case mouth why not square the case head alittle since that thickness varies?   For my match brass I do alittle extra with it since we aren't talking about alot of cases.  I would also assume web thickness varies and that was one of the problems when the old Sako 220 Russian case dried up and alot tried to make them 6ppc cases  couldn't get the web right.
Paul, I'm 64 and never stop learning.  I knew guys that even rebate the 6br rim to fit the 6ppc bolt  alot was going on back in those days most would wonder about.
Sinclair sell a primer pocket tool that cost arm and leg, they also include a shim pack since rim thickness is different for a 22-250 to a 308 those shim sizes are .005",.010",.015" and .020" since that tool locks the rim against the shell holder.

[PaulS]

Roper,

I am not sure we are even talking about the same tool. I am talking about the case length trimmer - I don't know how one could use it to rebate or take an eliptical stamping and make it round - this is more like an end mill that trims the neck of the case so that the length of the case is uniform. If the tool does more than that then we are at least talking about two different operations. The Wilson case trimmer is an expensive tool if one is going to use it to trim cases to factory lengths - If it also performs operations that include setting right an out-of-round condition on the rim and primer pocket uniforming it might not be as expensive relative to buying separate tools for each operation providing there is not an additional cost for the other operations.
My comment about truing the case head was not about any out of round condition it was about the case head being square to the case along its long axis. I could see how the trimmer might be used to true the case in that way but, as I commented earlier there would be no point to doing that because it would have to be repeated after each firing if the face of the bolt or breach was not square to the axis of the bore. If the rifles bolt face or breach was square to the bore then the problem would correct itself with firing the rounds in the gun. That is why I made the comment about that process being gimmickry and not worth having.
To reiterate my position, if you want to trim cases to uniform lengths the Wilson-Sinclaire tool is an expensive way to do it. If it is a "miniture lathe and mill device that performs multiple operations on cases then it might be worth the price if a person wanted to make use of the extra features. The original poster was asking about trimming to length - and whether the tools was worth the extra price - my opinion is that for trimming cases it is not worth the price. What say you?

[roper]

Paul.
  Seems like we are talking about two different things the wilson squares to the chamber period. You cann't do it any other way with the Wilson/Sinclair trimmer.  End of story.  I explained how the case holders work and how they simulate a rifle chamber.  With the Wilson you aren't centering anything than again squaring case mouth to the chamber.
You haven't used one so pretty hard to comment  as I've use the others and I agree they are two different animals.  Squaring a case is the benefit with the Wilson/Sinclair if you could use that tool you would see that and read about in the instruction.  Again since you haven't measured rim thickness how do you know the case head would be square to the bolt face after firing?   Since most trimmer work from a fire round the center dia of the neck has been centered till the neck has been sized.  In a tight neck rifle you can control that center by turning necks.  Centering the case mouth to the chamber can effect the pressure column along with neck thickness so that the bullet may not be in line with the bore.
Nothing is a gimmichry for someone trying to shoot small groups.

[PaulS]

Roper,

I understand that the Wilson tool has more to it than just trimming the case to length. I understand that you can "square" the case base to the shell holder and that the holder simulates a chamber. I get all that. I get that the Wilson tool could do all that and trim a case to length. I don't agree that it is necessary because when a case is fired in my rifle the case dimensions are fit to my chamber, bolt face and the concentricity of my individual rifle under 50000 psi. If the Wilson tool and my chamber were the same dimensions, or at least the same level of concentricity, the tool could make the cartridge fit my chamber more closely before firing than without using it. I also know that most production rifles are not set up with the bolt face square to the bore and that under those conditions the Wilson trimmer could make the fit worse between my chamber and the cartridge. It might make it fit better but there is no way to tell on any specific production rifle. I doubt the tool is worth its price unless you have a gun that has been trued and reworked from the production line to give it the "perfect" alignment of a target rifle. The original poster was asking if the Wilson trimmer was worth the extra money. I replied that it wasn't under the conditions that most shooters are working with. A mass-produced chamber is rarely concentric to the bore of the gun. Rarely is the bolt face truly square to the bore. Under these conditions the added features of the Wilson trimmer are not as important as they might be to someone with a gun that has been trued and accurized.
If we are talking about under some theoretical "perfect" conditions then there might be some value to these added features but I still contend that once you fire a case in a chamber the cartridge is fit to the dimensions of that chamber and all the work you have done to perfect the dimensions of that case are null and void unless the chamber and your tooling are in very close agreement. In a production gun they are unlikely to ever agree closely enough to matter for the average guy with a production rifle.