Two soldiers tortured and murdered...

[ironglow]

Those two 101st airborne troops that were captured were tortured and murdered in a most barbaric fashion...
   Then all senators like flip-Flop  Kerry and Dick Turban can do is say how bad our president is !
  Sheesh ! Have they no compassion for the soldier's surviving family members ?

 Leave it to a couple of political opportunists like those two top act stupid !
  Dick Turban went through a whole interview complaining about OUR leadership   aand the worst he could say about the terrorists was one small word "brutal"..

   Seems like the far left is filled with glee whenever they hear of American troops get killed...

  As for those terrorists...their acting for their "God"....if their "God" tells them to do these things...I've read about him in the Bible...and he has a lake of fire waiting for him...

[powderman]

Like it or not, we are in a war. Good vs evil, islam against the world. They are satans disciples, and seem to relish doing his work. We are dealing with a Godless, sub species of combination human and animal. They live only to hate, and murder innocents. I read the unsanitized version of what those animals did to our men, brutal is too kind for it. My Dad told me a few things the japs did to American prisoners in WW11. They seemed to mirror what those Godless scum did to our men. Now, and in WW11, instead of striking fear in us, all it has done is strengthen our resolve, and piss us off. I pray we catch these Godless scum and send them to hell with their master. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[Heavy C]

The news coverage of the families of those two soldiers has been pretty good in that they gave the families an opportunity to speak on their own behalf.  Their sentiment was that right, wrong, or indifferent we needed to stay the course and finish what we started.  The biggest indignation would be to leave per the suggestion of the Dems.

To leave at this point would communicate the following:

!.  When the going gets tough we cut and run.
2.  We got rid of the regime, but left that country a mess.
3.  All of the men and women who have given their lives for their country died in vain.

I'm saddened by the loss of life, but I'm disgusted and angered by protestors such as Cindy Sheehan or the other idiots that choose to protest at the funerals of these fallen soldiers.  The lack of leadership exists because rather than coming together and defending our country the brain trust in Washington is too concerned about getting their hides re-elected.  

GW might not be the most charismatic and well-spoken individual, but I believe he was and is right to take the fight to them.  The idea that attacks on the U.S. could become a regular occurrence wouldn't sit well with anyone: Dem, Rep, Lib, Grn Party whatever.

[slide-flipper]

they got captured in the first place.  Two heavily armed, well-trained soldiers manning an isolated checkpoint should never have been in a position to allow themselves to be captured.  Ammo, grenades, body-armor, radio contact with others... should never have happened.  Why weren't they seperated by enough distance to cover each other?  How did they get lured into a situation where they were close enough to be captured together without one of them being able to defend the other?

Should have started emptying mag's and throwing grenades...  I have to say that I would rather die trying to stuff a grenade down someones throat than to be butchered...  I would much rather have a few (or many) bodies piled up in front of my position when they come to recover my body than to be found gutted and tortured without having at least defended myself/team/buddies/position...


slide-flipper

[ironglow]

Sideflipper;
  I tend to agree with you, but am hesitant to be too judgemental, out of respect for the murdered men.

   My grandson (Marine Spec-Ops) just got back from the Sunni triangle and from my conversations with him, I doubt very much this could have happened so easily with his unit.
   My grandson is his unit armorer but in a combat zone that is not a full time job...and Spec-ops are multi-taskers. He also was a .50 cal gunner on top of a Humvee, did urban combat and was his unit's designated sniper.
   If his platoon set up a checkpoint, they would set it up so he could be an "overwatch" of the checkpoint. He would be in a window, behind a rock or in a bush..perhaps 100 yards from the checkpoint..watching over his fellow Marines at the checkpoint.

   I know how my grandson can shoot..I started him out on woodchucks... his first rifle; a Marlin 25n which he still has and loves.

   If 6 or 7 terrorists attacked his checkpoint overwatch...6 or 7 terrorists would be dead...
   
   This is no complaint against the 101st..they are great..and I am an Army veteran..

    I would venture to say however, perhaps somebody screwed up.
     
    BTW: night cover would be no problem..his spotter has a powerful infra-red capable spotlight that works well with his Acog scope..

[ms]

Bush is not the right man for the job. This war could have been over long ago. But there to much money being made. Young guys getting killed we need a pitbull in office.

[rockbilly]

:roll: First let me state, I hope for the best, and a safe return for all the American forces that are in harms way.  May we see a victory in what we are doing.

I think we have all been mislead, and are not truly justifyed in being in Iraq.  While I readilly admit, it was an evil government, and needed to be eliminated, they were no direct threat to America, other than the possibility of cutting off our oil supply.

If we were truly hunting terrorist why didn't we go after Saudi, that is the bank for terrorist activity against Americans.  Why didn't were hit Iran?  It is a known fact they have paid and trained terrorist for years.

And Bush?  All that dummy knows how to do is follow............

[Heavy C]

And Bush? All that dummy knows how to do is follow............

Follow who?  The dummies are the masses of people believing what the Dems are spouting.  If, for example, Gore would have won in 2000 do you think the response to 9/11 would have been as decisive?  I think not.  I shutter to think of what his response would have been to the struggling economy?

What about Kerry?  He turned on us during Vietnam!  :x   Do you really think he could have led us through these tough times?

I'm all for ending this as soon as possible and bringing our men and women home ASAP, but you can't leave something half baked and leave.  Mogadishu (Blackhawk Down) was a fine example of Democratic leadership during a conflict.  :roll: The media went back to interview several of the Somali's that killed our guys and they were laughing at the U.S.  I think anyone can debate for a month of Sundays as to why a country should not go to war.  It is never an appealing proposition.  Those countries who become complacent end up answering to other governments or in this case terrorist regimes.

[rockbilly]

Ramos1212.  Bush has surrounded himself with a gorup of "advisors" who direct almost every move he makes.  Dunbsfelt runs the war, Rice runs the business, and Chaney runs his mouth.

Take a hard look at the facts, what has GWB done for America, and what did he do for Texas as gov?

As for winning the war, America has not won a war since WW II, we performed half-ask, in Desert Storm, got out tails kicked in Nam, got beat down and quit in Korea.  And unless the war effort is totally changed in Iraq we will suffer another disgrace there.

[ironglow]

people of enlightened minds in texas almost all agree that "W" was a fine  Gov.....perfect no, but better than the old leather faced cow that preceeded  him!
   There are however, a lot of "yellow dog' Democrats still lingering there.

  Rockbilly made some  statements that simply must be corrected..
  First, that we should not have gone into Iraq..
     Saddam refused to allow inspectors to inspect..and shot at our planes patrolling the "no-fly" zone..
   Put aside the tortures, the WMD now being uncovered, the mistreatment of prisoners/women(both the same to him) and the genocide of the Kurds.
   
  He signed an agreement that he would not interfere with either the inspections or the patrol planes...He completely broke that agreement..
     
   That alone is justifiable reason for kicking his butt!..'nuff said

   RB; the Democrats say we should have gone after Saudi Arabia or Iran instead of Iraq...

  Are the Democrats willing to put their votes where their BIG MOUTHS are at ?  Does anyone really believe they would vote for war with Iraq or Iran ?

   Yes..Bush has surrounded himself with extremely competent advisors, and seeks their counsel...Poor old, incompetent Jimmy Carter tried to "do it all" and look at the mess he made..for instance, letting the Iatola hold our embassy staff as prisoners for over 440 days, unil Ronald Reagan got them freed , simply by being sworn into office !

  Rockbilly: I don't know where you got your view of history but it seems to be a left-skewed version..particularly where our war efforts are concerned..

  Korea: When hostilities ceased, we had the Commies on the run, having pushed them back from the small corner in Pusan to the 38th parallel and they were still falling toward the Yalu R. very rapidly...that is the ONLY reason they agreed to a cease-fire..

   Our forces could have driven the Chinese back to the Yalu and had a complete victory.
 
    But a Democrat President (Truman) didn't want us to "win".

  After all the 3-letter word W-I-N is a 4 -letter word to Libs..probably the only 4-letter word most of them have no use for...

  Vietnam: Our troops didn't get their butts kicked..they WON EVERY major engagement..
    That war effort was undermined and destroyed by traitors running riot in our streets and crooked, scared politicians that cut off funds to the troops.
   
    Yes; the Democrat congress defunded the war effort..pulled the rug from under out troops...some "support the troops", I'll say..
   
   Troops can't fight with empty guns and empty bellies...
 

   Desert storm; An obviously overwhelming victory..we destroyed the 4th largest military in the world in 100 hours..

   The Dem/Libs and their "drive by" media friends promised 50,000 body bags...
   That incident clearly shows the Democrats competency in plotting war strategy...
      Why should any serious thinker ever listen to them on things military?

   Ask the troops who are now serving..which is the best party for military leadership !


    Two comparatively recent adventures into military planning..
 
   Carter's "rescue" of the embassy personell being held hostage by the Iranian nutcases..

   But what else can we expect from someone that chooses Ramsey Clark...(Saddam's chief defense lawyer)...for his own Attorney General ?

  Then there was that "nation building" episode in Mogadishu !!
   
   Slick and Les Aspin decide to send in spec ops troops to get Adide, the war lord...
   Common knowledge is that our troops "own the night"...night time gives our troops, because of their superior training and equipment, an overwhelming edge over opposing forces..
  So what do Clinton and his defense chief cook up...uh huh !  ..a brilliant noon-time raid...DUH!!!

   And they don't even have sense enough to arrange for a tank/APC rescue effort, shall it be needed...
   
  Rockbilly; I believe you have no good reason to call Secy Rumsfeld ..Dumsfeld...
   
Not in light of Les Aspin..secy of Defense...how about "Lame" Aspin ?

   But then, Clinton is the Pres that Boasted of being a draft-dodger and even boasted that he "loathes the military"..
   
     Since he loathes the military so much, can we expect that he grieved very long over the men whose lives were lost due to incompetent leadership by him and Secy Aspin ?

   ...Shucks; Clinton wasn't even concerned over the stains on the carpet in the oral..er oval, office...

  BTW:  You said "Cheney runs his mouth!"....
   I presume you don't think Hitlery Clinton would comes under that description...huh ?...LOL

[Heavy C]

Ramos1212.  Bush has surrounded himself with a gorup of "advisors" who direct almost every move he makes.  Dunbsfelt runs the war, Rice runs the business, and Chaney runs his mouth.

Take a hard look at the facts, what has GWB done for America, and what did he do for Texas as gov?

As for winning the war, America has not won a war since WW II, we performed half-ask, in Desert Storm, got out tails kicked in Nam, got beat down and quit in Korea.  And unless the war effort is totally changed in Iraq we will suffer another disgrace there.

As did each and every president before him - it's called a cabinet.

Under the circumstances W has done a fine job - is there room for improvement - it's always the biggest room in the house.  

With the exception of Desert Storm which was a superior campaign; every other war you mentioned has been fought while a Dem was in office.  W had a sound agenda for this nation when he first took office and 9/11 obviously impacted the course of action.  I firmly believe that the Dems having lost two elections in a row and control of Congress are going out of there way to throw road blocks and have created an atmosphere of contempt and back biting.

[fe352v8]

Ironglow .

Glad your grandson made it home.

All most all democrats voted for the resolution authorizing the use of force and for continuing funding resolutions.

Old chemical rounds, sans the chemicals do not a WMD make.

The Korean cease-fire was signed in July of 1953; Eisenhower was president, not Truman, the guy who ordered the dropping of 2 a-bombs few years earlier.

February 1955 first advisors sent to Viet Nam, Eisenhower was president.

August 1964 senate passes Gulf of Tonkin resolution only 2 senators vote against it, both democrats.

And let us not forget the president who gave us “Peace with honor”.

I do not think a presidentÂ’s party affiliation nor being liberal or conservative has much to do with the our militaries ability to successfully complete the missions assigned them.  In WWI, the president was a democrat and a progressive, Wilson.  In WWII, the granddaddy of all liberals and the father  of social security was a democrat, Roosevelt.

What president emboldened the suicide bombers of today by “cutting and running” from Lebanon, he was not a democrat and he was not a liberal.

Regardless of which party is in power a democratic republicÂ’s ability to engage in an armed conflict is of finite duration because of the nature of our society.  If this president wishes to “win” he had best to something different than what he is doing, as support for his prosecution of the conflict is eroding even among his own party.

Again, glad your grandson made it home, and my sincere hope he is not placed in harms way again.

Life is no joke but funny things happen

jon

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. Excellent post Sir, I agree. If gore or hanoi john had been in office on 9 11 01 I truly believe that we would have been hit several times more, maybe even worse. If they had been president they would still be appologizing to the Godless ones for building the twin towers in the way of their stolen planes. Instead of circling the wagons in fear, president Bush has attacked these Godless SOBS, we will fight them anywhere they are found. After we entered Afghanistan some of the prisoners we took said that they didn't expect us to go to war. They judged us by the inactions of billybob klintoon. They thought we were all cowards like him, and anti military like all the dumcraps. Those of you who say you support the troops, but condemn the job they are doing are only fooling yourselves, you are supporting our enemies. I hope and pray that the world wakes up and sees these Godless ones for the cancer that islam is, before it's too late. POWDERMAN.   :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x

[ironglow]

Fe;
 Thanks for the kind words, concerning my grandson. No guarantees he's done in Iraq or elsewhere..they are talking a march deployment to some war zone already.
  He's Spec-Ops , and "on call" to be in a flash point anywhere on the globe in 6 hours.
 Yes Eisenhoiur sent a few advisors but the war was greatly expanded under JFK...I don't fault him for that...we made a promise to defend our allies...many folks have forgotten that we signed on to S.E.A.T.O.
   ...and were obligated by honor to come to S. Vietnam's aid.

   Only people that cannot keep their word tried to back out on that responsibility.

  Along with Carter's "rescue in the desert" and Clinton's "Black Hawk Down"...we must add JFK's "Bay of Pigs" desertion of allies in the face of defeat...

  Of course, Wilson was no warrior, in fact ..many say his wife ran the Whitehouse..rather like the Clintons..it would seem..

  "W" is far from perfect..no Pres we ever had was correct 100% of the time...even when the opposition party demanded it !
   
  ..But considering the alternatives..Gore or Kerry..I believe we are much better off..with "W".

  I must offer a correction ...not all those rounds are"sans chemicals" and more are being uncovered every day, both in records and in substance..

   Don't forget, the President's detractors said very clearly thjat there were "NO WMD"..couldn't be much clearer..
  Therefore every single canister of gas or bio substance found makes those detractors that much the more ..liars..
 
   They held him to a rigid standard...so turn about is fair play...

  I have talked to many Marines and some Army personnel...they are virtually unanimous as to which party backs the troops the best...so the saying "we support the troops" rings rather hollow on one side..

[daddywpb]

The news reports of what happened to those men sicken me. We are trying to fight by the rules against an enemy who has no rules and is willing to die for their cause. They do not hessitate to kill innocents and neither should we. People seem to forget two things:

1. We didn't start this. We were attacked - on our own soil.

2. In war, innocent people get killed, and we had better be prepared to do
    whatever it takes to win.

The last time we were attacked on our own soil, we dropped two bombs, killed millions of people, and stopped our enemy cold. It worked then, and it will work now. Nuke them! Turn the Middle East into a big smoldering kitty litter box and be done with it! Now! Today! Before another American life is lost.

George Bush is the perfect man for the job! The press pounded him for the speech where he said "Bring it on!". I thought it was great! Eliminate the enemy and move on. Then if anyone else want's a piece, eliminate them too! Once our enemies see that we are willing to do what it takes, the will stop. If we show fear or hessitation to react, the attacks on us will continue, period. Turn him loose and let him do his job!

All you bleeding hearts and crybaby politicians:

Remember the images of people jumping to their deaths from the towers on 9/11/01? WE WERE ATTACKED! Just like a bully in a schoolyard, you don't lay down and try to talk to him, you stomp him into the ground, and when he's down and out you stomp him again just to remind him what will happen the next time he does it.

We are the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. Let's start acting like it! Every American will be eternally grateful for each and every one of our brave men and women who are fighting over there to preserve and protect the principles and values that have made, and will continue to make this the greatest country in the world. Each and every one of them are true heroes.

[slide-flipper]

As the worlds most potent and powerful military force, I just don't see why we want to get bogged down in a urban fight just to maintain the peace.  What we should do is to make sure that EVERYONE knows that the consequences of goading us into military action will be overwhelming and decisive and utterly devastating.  MAD worked against the Soviets and it will work against the Iranians and NK's.  Make sure they know that any conventional attack will result in the total destruction of their war making capability.  Any WMD attack will result in the destruction of their civilization.

We don't seem to have any problems kicking butt in a traditional force on force fight.  What we don't seem to be able to do is win a political/moral victory with people who don't share our ethnic/religious background.  Witness WWII, no problems from the countries we helped to rebuild after the war.  We even had success in Japan.  Now move to Vietnam.  No success there despite our military victories.  There was no coherent, viable plan to win Vietnam from a social standpoint.  No plan in Iraq either.  The problem is the people there don't share our same mindset or background.  They really don't have a national desire for democratic rule or republican representation.  They are so tied to having a "chief" or ruler that most can't conceive of actually being able to vote and rule themselves.  They are hung up in hundreds of years of tribal in-fighting and warfare.  They can't get past that... Americans didn't face that struggle when we won independence and wrote our constitution.  The muslems can't get past the hundreds of years of fighting with the christians and jews.  Face it, their history demands allegiance to a tribe or faith instead of a nation.  Until they find a way to unite as a nation instead of a collection of tribes we will never be successful in rebuilding Iraq or any other country in that region.  Africa is the same story, different verse.  Very little possibility of gaining ground there.  The only way to win in either place is with massive investments in building/commerce/education and exposure to our way of working and thinking.

slide-flipper

[williamlayton]

I would side with Rockbilly.
The enlightened of Texas-by-GOD do not see him in the same light as would your group. Good ol boy---with great contacts and will follow orders-of daddy-- but has no background of accomplishments.
Sadly, this is daddy's doings, though Jr sticks out his chest and salutes.
The story will never be known, but, this is for sure--Whoever the group is that wanted us over there, whoever THEY are, they have made a pile of money off the lives of some fine soldiers.
I am sure not a liberal--but I do not trust a Republican as far as the buldge in his hip pocket.
Blessings

[magooch]

If you think like a liberal and you talk like a liberal--you are a liberal!!!

[powderman]

I'm sick of hearing about Bush's war, he didn't start it. A group of Godless, subhuman, sobs did, screaming allah akhbar, as they murdered 3,000 Americans, and sent themselves to hell. The United States of America was attacked, that means war. Saddam was in this up to this to his ears. He provided training camps and money to further support his murdering friends. Saddam refused to allow UN inspectors in, that in itself was enough for him to be attacked, and stopped. The whole world knew he had the wmds, even the dumcraps, uhhhh, at least til just before the election. The wmds were shipped by convoys of trucks to syria, by the russians, recon photos have shown this, even the dumcraps said so, uhhhh, up til the election. This is war, good people die, those are the facts, pissing and moaning won't stop it. If ALL Americans would pull together, this war would be over. There is not a lie, or dirty deed that the dumcraps won't do to win an election. America means NOTHING to them, only winning, and power. GW isn't perfect, but WAY ahead of the competition. POWDERMAN.  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:  :cry:

[rockbilly]

:wink: powderman.  I totally agree, Bush was the lessor of two evils and got my vote, not because I had a great deal of confidance in him, but because I did not have any confidance in Kerry.  By the same token, Bush did not have a great military career.  He talked a good talk, but the truth is, he rode a bar stool in Houston while I served two tours in Viet Nam.  It that respect, he is not much better than Kerry, but it was other issues that caused me to vote for him.  He is following closely in his fathers footsteps, and trying to correct a lot of the errors the father made while in office.

AS for the war in Iraq, we did start it.  While I fully support going after terorist wherever they try to hide, I am opposed to the "World Police" attitude of the Bush adminstration.  My concern, where does it stop, are we going after North Korea next, will it be Iran, oor perhaps one of the up and coming countries to our south?

Side-flipper stated, "As the worlds most potent and powerful military force,".  I agree, we do have, perhaps, the worlds most powerful military force, but it is a shadow of what it once was.  Dumsfelt has gutted the military almost to the point that we would be in serious trouble if a war erupted in another part of the world.  The troop strength has been reduced to the point that is seriously impacting moral and retention in all branches of service.  The rotations to support the war effort has caused undue hardships on reserve forces, and places us in a position that we may have re-initiate the draft.  Not only is troop strength down, numerous weapons systems have been eliminated, supplies and equipment is not available for combat operations. I spent 49 years in/or working for the military, I have never seen conditions as bad as they are right now.

A large majority of our seasoned military leaders have voiced their opinion of Dumbsfelt, and his management of the military.  Often, he does not heed advice of experienced combat veterans, and has surrounded himself with "yes" men so he can continue to run the war his way.  A lot of lives have been lost as the result of his lack of action to secure equipment prior to sending the troop into combat.  In mu opinion this is near criminal.

And now we really have something to look forward to, Jeb Bush for president?

[powderman]

TM7. Never heard those stats. I saw the burning buildings, watched the Godless ones fly a plane into the 2nd building. We were attacked, what is there to investigate??
ROCKBILLY. How can you even begin to talk about Rumsfeld cutting the military after what clinton did?? When GW took office we were in sad shape. Clinton had cut manpower, and weapons. I can't think of any other president that did so much to weaken America. One reason we didn't immediately attack was that we COULDN'T, didn't have the resources. WE aren't fighting a nation, we are fighting the concept of islam. These scum intentionally attack from homes, schools, anywhere that will ensure civilian casualties, they do this purposely to make sure they can whine about us killing innocents, while they butcher and blow up their own kind every day. WE are not dealing with rational human beings here, they are a Godless, ruthless, subhuman culture that has no rules. They care nothing about human life, mine, yours, even their own. They live to kill, that is their reason for being. What kind of a man would put explosives on his own child, point him toward a busload of children, and tell him to kill them and God would bless him??? A muslim. That is the mentality we are fighting. I'd rather fight them over there, than here. I wonder what these suicide bombers think when they open their eyes in hell.
Thank you for your service to our nation Sir. POWDERMAN.                    

[slide-flipper]

I finally dug around and found this list... don't know exactly how accurate it is but I'm sure it is closer to fact than fiction...  Shoot, that joker cut more forces than any other country has...



709,000 REGULAR (ACTIVE DUTY) PERSONNEL

293,000 RESERVE TROOPS

EIGHT STANDING ARMY DIVISIONS

20 AIR FORCE AND NAVY AIR WINGS WITH 2,000 COMBAT AIRCRAFT

232 STRATEGIC BOMBERS

19 STRATEGIC BALLISTIC MISSILE SUBMARINES WITH
3,114 NUCLEAR WARHEADS AND 232 MISSILES

500 ICBMs WITH 1,950 WARHEADS

FOUR AIRCRAFT CARRIERS AND 121 SURFACE COMBAT SHIPS AND SUBMARINES

[rockbilly]

:shock: Powderman.  Look back, prior to "Slick Willie," military troop reduction begain in the first (father's) Bush adminstration.  It was Dumbsfelt that initiated it to begin with.  Dumbsfelt and congress had already set the schedule for the "Base Realgniment and Closure." during that adminstration.  

As I said, I worked with these "kids" for many years.  It is not the first-termers that concern me, but the seasoned E-5, E-6 and E-7s that are getting out, many well ahead of there scheduled retirement.  Why are they leaving the service?  Over extended.  Many of the folks I worked with had spent 2-2 1/2 Years in the war zone, and were scheduled to go back again.  Not only is this method of conducting war taxing on the troops, it is costly for the tax payer.  

I firmly beleive, our military is being gutted by the elimination of upper level military leaders, and mid-level management (experience) in the enlisted ranks.  We can not continue to face enemy forces in this manner, and to expand to another area of the world would be foolins unless we start the draft again.  That may not be bad, I think everyone should have to serve a period in the military.